Scott Gracio I want my cue or money back now.

[Type79]

Many of the top cuemakers do not require a deposit unless it is a very unusual or personalized cue. That is because they know they can sell their cues immediately if the original buyers back out.

Some customers still want to give them deposits as they believe it will speed up the process, or, that it gives them the right to bug the crap out of the cuemaker.

I have dealt and talked with several cuemakers who vary on the requirement of a deposit.

Some have required a 50% deposit and the balance just prior to completion.

Some a nominal amount.

Some have required no deposit.

Some refuse to accept any deposit.

The cuemakers requiring 50% down have done so because the design is custom and possibly not to the liking of the wider market and the cuemakers refusing to accept any deposit have basically explained that their cues are very traditional and therefore have a broad appeal.

 

[Samdech]

The problem is I had bought a cue from Gracio four years before, we had talk on the phone about playing one pocket. I wish he could see what he has done from a view above. Someday I will run into Scott, somewhere. When I do it will be a pleasant surprise. But until then I still have hope that he will help himself be a right type of guy.

 

[pookster]

pookster....that's where your gut feel decision serves you best after checking out the cue-maker. There's always the chance you'll run into a crook like Tony Zinzola and
Lee Pepper turned out to be but their reps were tarnishing towards the end of their careers.......I guess you have to look for warning signs and stay in fairly close contact
with the cue-maker and naturally, hold them to their timeline for completion.

I don't think I've been lucky with my custom cue ordering and been fortunate to avoid getting scammed so far. Nonetheless, you make an excellent point and you have to
do your homework before you place your order with any cue-maker that's new to you. In fact, even ones you may have dealt with in the past since there's always the
chance their customer service has slipped and you might come to regret doing business with that cue-maker again.

Matt B.

I did do the homework and I still got screwed.And that cue maker stated that his deposit is nonrefundable even he change the order to the way he think that it'll make the cue look better....don't make me say the name cause it's a long story and it will be another 80 pages on the tread

 

[Samdech]

There are many good, trustworthy cue makers out there, you can't let one or two, make you not trust all. I still am going to fly in an airplane, although I may look to see if the pilot and copilot are smiling first. The same holds true when buying a cue, although the outcome is not as important. We all get fooled in our lives, some more than others. In life getting ripped for a small amount of money isn't real important in the scheme of things. Children, Grandchildren, Wife and health are important, also what I leave behind is my reputation. Something to me that is important.

 

[mia]

Glad someone brought up Stroud. That guy ruined a life's worth of good work with one utterly ridiculous act, and in turn decreased the value of all of his existing cues. I know I would never buy no matter what the cost.

Not sure any of that is true at all.

 

[Bishop]

I don't think the problem is so much about taking a deposit or not requiring one. The real issue is a lack of paper work that definitively gives the consumer the assurances that they've entered into an agreement to have a cue made.

To expand on that it should be clear that you've entered into a purchase, the dates of completion, the process for extensions and how payment should be made upon completion and how much time the buyer will be given to complete the deal.

 

[cueaddicts]

In my opinion, the only people that will gripe or criticize a cue-maker over deposits or progress payments are individuals
that have never owned their own business where they had to make payroll, cover taxes, maintain inventory, pay overhead,
dealt with P&L and bad debt allowance, etc.

Only naive persons would argue that deposits are out of line or bellow about how they wouldn't pay a cue-maker, regardless
of whom it was, money in advance of getting their cue. OMG, if someone won't pony up money, they aren't a serious customer
if I were the cue-maker........money establishes an earnest customer and also their vested interest in seeing the cue completed.

Matt B.

Matt, if only that were true, lol. You obviously have never had the kind of displeasure I had with Danny Tibbitts. Some people are just scumbags. I can guarantee you won't find a cuemaker who will say I didn't or wouldn't pay the agreed to monies on completion of a cue order. Paid a deposit and waited close to a **decade** with that guy, with exactly zero sawdust ever made for my order. There are others out there like him, too, who will take your order and deposit money and will never build your cue. I know of several who have done my friends and fellow collectors that way. You hardly ever hear about this, though, because they are holding out for the "maybe one day", I guess. Sad truth about this industry we so love. Some very dishonest and unethical people out there. It can be a minefield.

 

[Worminator]

I don't think the problem is so much about taking a deposit or not requiring one. The real issue is a lack of paper work that definitively gives the consumer the assurances that they've entered into an agreement to have a cue made.

To expand on that it should be clear that you've entered into a purchase, the dates of completion, the process for extensions and how payment should be made upon completion and how much time the buyer will be given to complete the deal.

This all seems to be about the BUYER completing the deal... the thread is about CUEMAKERS completing the deal.

In the end, if a buyer backs out of a cue he orders, the cuemaker still has the cue. Any maker worth his weight should be able to sell the cue quickly and he is really out nothing but some aggravation with the original buyer.

When a cuemaker does not fulfill his end if the deal, and there is a deposit involved, then we have a completely different situation. The cue, or a refund of deposit is now required to make the deal whole. This is where things go south pretty quickly, and why threads like this are started.

I haven't had a bad deal with a cuemaker for a long, long time. Then again, I am very picky with which cuemakers I chose to deal with. It is very seldom I ever send a deposit... probably the last one was with Ernie Gutierrez, and I had no problem sending him one because of his reputation as a cuemaker and business man. I had my cue from him well before the completion date he quoted me... and that is a very rare occurrence these days.

 

[Worminator]

Glad someone brought up Stroud. That guy ruined a life's worth of good work with one utterly ridiculous act, and in turn decreased the value of all of his existing cues. I know I would never buy no matter what the cost.

Not sure any of that is true at all.

I agree... Joss West cues are still sought after and I haven't seen the value drop because of the "Dream Cue" fiasco. Bill was pretty much retired at that point, so he lost no business over the situation.

 

[cuesblues]

Glad someone brought up Stroud. That guy ruined a life's worth of good work with one utterly ridiculous act, and in turn decreased the value of all of his existing cues. I know I would never buy no matter what the cost.

Joss West values have remained the same, and if anything have gone up a little.
On the other hand Scott Gracio cue values have plummeted

 

[Bishop]

This all seems to be about the BUYER completing the deal... the thread is about CUEMAKERS completing the deal.

In the end, if a buyer backs out of a cue he orders, the cuemaker still has the cue. Any maker worth his weight should be able to sell the cue quickly and he is really out nothing but some aggravation with the original buyer.

When a cuemaker does not fulfill his end if the deal, and there is a deposit involved, then we have a completely different situation. The cue, or a refund of deposit is now required to make the deal whole. This is where things go south pretty quickly, and why threads like this are started.

I haven't had a bad deal with a cuemaker for a long, long time. Then again, I am very picky with which cuemakers I chose to deal with. It is very seldom I ever send a deposit... probably the last one was with Ernie Gutierrez, and I had no problem sending him one because of his reputation as a cuemaker and business man. I had my cue from him well before the completion date he quoted me... and that is a very rare occurrence these days.

I agree with your points but what I was trying to convey is that with proper paperwork the buyer has some recourse. Regardless of deposit.

I guess what I'm saying is that as a consumer I want something a little more professional than someone's word that they've taken an order from me.

This way when the cuemaker makes a snap decision or acts controversially the buyer can legally lean on the signed agreement.

A basic order form is what's missing in this industry...is it not?

That would in fact protect both sides.

 

[Samdech]

That's a good idea, a purchase order. I like it, signed by both maker and buyer.

 

[Bishop]

That's a good idea, a purchase order. I like it, signed by both maker and buyer.

I have recommended this before. It doesn't have to be complicated but something this basic will give the buyer all the power in the world to seek restitution.

It also clearly outlines final payment, so if the buyer starts to weasel out, the cue maker has a clear process to collect and retain the cue for resale upon non-payment.

You don't even actually need the form. When I take pen orders I write something similar out on email and state that an agreed upon response by email will act as a binding order. Then if need be, print the email.

ABC Cues Order Agreement​

10/26/1014

Order for customer:

Samdech
123 Samdech St.
555-SamD
Samdech@yahoo.com

Description of Cue: 58'', Ivory Sleeved, 3/8-10 pin. Cocobolo into Ebony Forearm. Natural/Brown/Mint veneers and ivory hoppe ring. 19.5 ounces. Two shafts 12inch pro taper. ETC...

Deposit: 100.00 refundable or applicable deposit paid upon signing of this contract.

Completion Date: 10/26/2016. ABC cues reserves the right to extend the completion date by 60 days with advanced written notice. Any delays longer than 60 days and the customer reserves the right to set a new agreed upon delivery date or retain their deposit and void the purchase completely and without consequence.

Final Payment: You will receive a completion update and notice by phone call and email when the cue is within 60 days of completion, again at 30 days to completion and lastly when the cue is complete and ready for delivery/pickup.

The buyer has 15 business days to make final payment and arrange for pickup or delivery. If payment is not received within 15 business days a final notice for payment will be sent by certified mail upon which you will have a final 10 business days to make payment. If no payment is received the customer will forfeit their deposit and ownership rights to the ordered cue.

At which point ABC Cues reserves the right to resell the cue at any price we see fit.


Customer Signature: _______________ ABC Cues:___________________

 

[Samdech]

It looks good, I would like to keep a copy of it ( if you give an ok ) and use some of the format the next time I have a cue made. I think it's a good thought, also a good format to start with. If I were you, I may start a thread on the main forum to show it. Some cue makers may dislike the idea, but oh well.

 

[ideologist]

Ah Bishop,

You forget that an agreement like that would really necessitate being an actual business and not some dude out of his basement.

And so, it will never come to pass.

I completely agree with your form and have something similar in my business. I think cue makers should also charge extra for revisions. Most customers are horrible and call 40 times a day with suggestions and changes.

Once a deal is made, it should be formalized and the customer bears their end of that. If they want to modify the order, especially after a form like this is agreed to, there should be a $50 fee, nonrefundable and payable immediately. Otherwise, cuemaker hangs up the phone with a reminder of the due date and wishes the customer a good day.

I know most of the cuemakers who get blasted for running behind and such fall into the customer service pit where they try to accommodate every whim to stay in business.

Customers are customers, and can be fired! :thumbup:

 

[Bishop]

It looks good, I would like to keep a copy of it ( if you give an ok ) and use some of the format the next time I have a cue made. I think it's a good thought, also a good format to start with. If I were you, I may start a thread on the main forum to show it. Some cue makers may dislike the idea, but oh well.

Copy away. You can change it up if you want. That's the basic outline of the form I use locally when I take orders. For email orders I write a summary and have them reply by email to accept the terms.

Ah Bishop,

You forget that an agreement like that would really necessitate being an actual business and not some dude out of his basement.

And so, it will never come to pass.

I completely agree with your form and have something similar in my business. I think cue makers should also charge extra for revisions. Most customers are horrible and call 40 times a day with suggestions and changes.

Once a deal is made, it should be formalized and the customer bears their end of that. If they want to modify the order, especially after a form like this is agreed to, there should be a $50 fee, nonrefundable and payable immediately. Otherwise, cuemaker hangs up the phone with a reminder of the due date and wishes the customer a good day.

I know most of the cuemakers who get blasted for running behind and such fall into the customer service pit where they try to accommodate every whim to stay in business.

Customers are customers, and can be fired! :thumbup:

To the first bold. Couldn't agree more. Its a big issue, how big, I don't know. There are a ton of cuemakers who are DBA's though. Nothing wrong with at least looking for a guy who's running a legit business. There may be as many legit businesses as basement businesses.

The second part is 100% on the business/cuemaker. This is why a contract can become something of real value to the cuemaker. Writing a provision for delay's could help soften some of those issues. Obviously the next big issue is knowing when to say when and not biting off more than you can chew.

In all my years in business both for myself and for other much larger companies I have never seen a good reason to "fire" a customer. The closest I've seen to that is a termination of a contract due to non-payment/excessive late payment or bankruptcy.

If you can get a difficult or bad customer on your side they're usually the biggest cheerleaders. A positive perspective, organization and solid paper trail go a long way.

 

[maha]

no form is going to do anything except remind the parties what they were supposed to do. for the amounts of a cue going to court is futile usually.

for the customer dont send much money in advance. and for the cuemaker sell what you promised.

if either dont follow their word then the internet is the best place to let others know. that is the remedy

many businesses go broke and close, and stick makes are one of them. as they close they tend to not complete transactions and keep deposits. that is the chances you take with any company you deal with.

 

[cueaddicts]

Forms??? Come on, forms won't help. What will help is when the nuthuggers stop rewarding certain cuemakers' bad behaviors and all this info gets out in the open. But we all know that probably won't happen in this industry, sadly.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Disagree

no form is going to do anything except remind the parties what they were supposed to do. for the amounts of a cue going to court is futile usually.

for the customer dont send much money in advance. and for the cuemaker sell what you promised.

if either dont follow their word then the internet is the best place to let others know. that is the remedy

many businesses go broke and close, and stick makes are one of them. as they close they tend to not complete transactions and keep deposits. that is the chances you take with any company you deal with.

The answer or the fix to these problems is
One to have a binding contract, emails can be a binding contract...
Two is to get a receipt .
DONT PAY WITH PAY PAL AS A GIFT IT IS AUTOMATICLY COMMINTING FRAUD.
If you have to go to court and you paid with PP and gifted it, it will hurt your case and PP will close your account..
If the deal goes south
Three is don't say shit on the internet , do not say anything to anyone not involved.
Do not slander the custom cue maker ....................in any way shape or form keep your mouth shut......
Four is have them served and take them to small claims court.........
After winning in court posting the court records on the internet pretty much says it all.

 

[Bishop]

Just like Mike said. A form and an email are binding contracts. Obviously if you didn't leave a deposit and the cue maker failed to deliver its time to simply move on. However there are tons of examples of buyers who have sent hundreds...thousands...of dollars with no recourse whatsoever.

Those forms and emails help people every day recoup their money.

There is no 100% perfect solution here but a simple order form and receipt is a big step in the right direction.