Fear of Feel

Robin,

When you speak of amateurs & a lack of people playing, are you speaking nationwide or in your local area? If you're speaking nationwide, from what are you basing that?

I thought that amater league play was doing fine & growing every year.

The problem, as I see it, is that they are mostly playing on coin tables in bars & not in pool halls.

I certainly see Professional Pool as having a much larger problem in that there is no money.

I think CJ is looking to & hopefully might change that.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

The industry has lost half of the billiard wholesalers and about half of the places to play pool if not more from the last numbers I heard from a industry member.

If there were a teeming customer base that would not have happened.

Pro Pool has no support because the people who used to infuse their sponsors with money have declined.

Pool league numbers even if growing arent but a speck in the bucket lost or never realized because of a lack of ability to attract new people into the places that house pool tables.

There is no cohesiveness between the merchants association and the amateur ranks only pool league providers who dont care to share profits with the bar owners. If they can get it for free, they do.
 
Last edited:
The industry has lost half of the billiard wholesalers and about half of the places to play pool if not more from the last numbers I heard from a industry member.

If there were a teeming customer base that would not have happened.

Pro Pool has no support because the people who used to infuse their sponsors with money have declined.

Pool league numbers even if growing arent but a speck in the bucket lost or never realized because of a lack of ability to attract new people into the places that house pool tables.

There is no cohesiveness between the merchants association and the amateur ranks only pool league providers who dont care to share profits with the bar owners. If they can get it for free, they do.

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth. That is exactly why we need more CJ Wiley's to spark a renewed interest in the sport!
 
Thats one end only

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth. That is exactly why we need more CJ Wiley's to spark a renewed interest in the sport!

Randy,
I dont deny that help is help is help. But thats only on one end and until we do something on the end where the problem really is there will continue to be a decline.
Television is advertisement but at a high cost and is un-sustainable, its not that it isnt good its just how you measure how good it is. If it was no more than someone picking up a magazine and seeing pool in the magazine thats exposure. I just dont see that anyone willing to shuck out the bucks for tv advertising is going to find many eyeballs in this sport to watch it to advertise to.

There are what 48,000 or so eyeballs here? in a day a few thousand get online and not many team league people when you consider how many there are even know AZ exists.

We have a very complex problem.

If this industry would decide one thing it would turn around. If everyone tried to make it so that Room Owners made money then it would be profitable again to own Pool Rooms and more would open, instead of close but it is what it is until its gone it seems within driving distance of me every year or so another bites the dust and now there is fewer left and tables are moving into homes.
 
Nope you don't. That is purely a subjective speculation, ie myth that contact induced throw happens on every shot.
Subjective speculation, huh?]:eek::yikes:]

I have never adjusted for contact induced throw. I do for side spin.
Maybe not consciously...[/COLOR]

There has been no proof that CIT happens on every shot in pool. There have been demonstrations that show CIT can happen under limited set of parameters.
You can't be serious!

I believe those demonstrations are at a CB ball speed that I seldom if ever use. Seldom is there a quantifiable number given to the CB ball speed. It seems to be that CB speed is always defined as fast, medium or slow.
There have been several attempts at making standardized measurements for cueball speed (The Beards books, PAT tests etc). The problem is that most pool players dont' want to consciously think about these things, as there are plenty of other things to think about while playing.

Seldom is it stated the the CB is traveling x ....per ......
It is because nobody has a radar gun with them while playing pool and it is too difficult to measure length/time with the naked eye while playing. Therefore measurements are by result (total distance travelled).

When there is a speed indicated, it has been a speed that I never use. When you do read of a speed, it is in MPH which really isn't a good scale of measurement to use since the playing surface is measured in feet or inches, so a good scale would be x inches per second or x ft per second. This fits into the reality of the world of pool and not mile per hour.

Lets just take a CB speed of 1 MPH. Do you really know how fast that it is on a pool table? What a CB traveling a 1 mph looks like and what type of hit it takes to do it?
Again, this is great for a physics textbook, but unnecessary for playing.

Converting a CB speed of 1 MPH to IPS...inches per second results in 17.6 inches CB speed. Half a pool table is 24 inches. How far apart are the diamonds on the rail?

Just something to think about.

In motorcycle riding there are two ways to turn a bike and at all depends on what speed the bike is going on which style is used. Below x speed, to go right, you turn the bars right and go right. Above x speed, to go right, you first turn the bars left, then the bike leans right for a right turn....its called countersteering. I believe the same thing occurs with CIT, it can occur at a certain point. I just operate at a area of speed below that point CIT occurs.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but CIT occurs at slow speeds as well. It is easily verifiable by setting up a line of balls, like Byrne outlines in his books. The one thing I will say is that CIT is less noticable on cut angles below approximately 20 degrees.

I really posted the link to show someone with far superior credentials than CJ has in a game, 14.1, that is tougher to master than 9 ball has to share about aiming.

That was the request.

PS, this a good example of providing support for ones premise, which is lacking in your reply.

I suggest you and others get this book to really see how weak most arguments on here are.
Making good rational arguments are always nice. In the case of contact induced throw you can easily verify the existence of it yourself, with no other instruments needed than your eyes, poolballs and a table. You can't argue away the results you get when actually applying the methods Byrne and others have shown us.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Logic_and_Contemporary_Rhetoric_The_Use.html?id=_IIVhDlcCy4C

............................
 
Last edited:
For My Friend English...TOI Works On Jump Shots Too!

I had a little bit of frog in me this afternoon, so here ya go...

The first jump, pretty easy. TOI allows me to get perfect position on the 2 ball.

The second jump was much more difficult. The 8 ball was about 2 1/2 feet away, and the landing zone for the cue ball was only about 10". TOI allowed me to break out the 14 after perfect execution of the jump shot!

Finally in the 3rd jump TOI won't help with a kick, the 14 is in the way, and I certainly can't jump the 10...but using TOI I can jump the 14 and bank into the 8!

Get some frog in you Rick and as Robin Dodson would say...leap over the competition!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZcGrsNZ5M&feature=youtu.be
 
Last edited:
I had a little bit of frog in me this afternoon, so here ya go...

The first jump, pretty easy. TOI allows me to get perfect position on the 2 ball.

The second jump was much more difficult. The 8 ball was about 2 1/2 feet away, and the landing zone for the cue was only about 10". TOI allowed me to break out the 14 after perfect execution of the jump shot!

Finally in the 3rd jump TOI won't help with a kick, the 14 is in the way, and I certainly can't jump the 10...but using TOI I can jump the 14 and bank into the 8!

Get some frog in you Rick and as Robin Dodson would say...leap over the competition!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZcGrsNZ5M&feature=youtu.be

video is private
 
I am only sharing what I've been shown through the years gambling and in tournaments

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth. That is exactly why we need more CJ Wiley's to spark a renewed interest in the sport!

Yes, it's too bad other players can't come on azbilliards without fear of being ridiculed by the "dis-likers"......it's a sad state of affairs.

I receive a lot of input from other players like Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, and John Brumback that I share.

One thing's for sure, most of the knowledge I have was shared with me by other top professsional players through the years. Players like Wade Crane (Billy Johnson) "Omaha John" Shuput, Dalton Leong, Rusty Brandimiere, Mike Lebron, Efren Reyes, Jack Cooney, Sammy Jones, Roger Griffis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Steve Mizerack, Vernon Elliot, Tony Fargo, "Bugs", Doug Smith, SA John, Rodney Morris, Mark Tadd, and many more.

10387540_1077470312279004_3848270090793002839_n.jpg
 
Come to think about it....I never adjust for anything......its a subjective thing.

Don't worry bout my game, best if everyone justs take care of their own game.

I sure don't worry bout anyone else game.

Oh what was the CB speed used in that test? Was it under 1 inch per second?
 
Last edited:
I had a little bit of frog in me this afternoon, so here ya go...

The first jump, pretty easy. TOI allows me to get perfect position on the 2 ball.

The second jump was much more difficult. The 8 ball was about 2 1/2 feet away, and the landing zone for the cue ball was only about 10". TOI allowed me to break out the 14 after perfect execution of the jump shot!

Finally in the 3rd jump TOI won't help with a kick, the 14 is in the way, and I certainly can't jump the 10...but using TOI I can jump the 14 and bank into the 8!

Get some frog in you Rick and as Robin Dodson would say...leap over the competition!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZcGrsNZ5M&feature=youtu.be

Hi Randy,

Yeah, that is so much the worst part of my game it goes by the acronym of LaRe...

Last Resort. But I did make a great long jump shot in 8 ball once for the Win. I wish I had that one on video & then the guys face that just lost.

I'll have to work on that as more are playing 'lock up safeties' now than ever.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Rick

Edit: I added single quotes around the phrase lock up safeties per Beiber's post of #1416
 
Last edited:
duckie:
I just operate at a area of speed below that point CIT occurs.
StraightPool_99:
CIT occurs at slow speeds as well
Slower speed actually increases throw. Higher speed (or too much inside spin, which is the same thing) reduces throw.

CIT is less noticable on cut angles below approximately 20 degrees.
To get maximum contact throw without side spin: sliding CB (stop shot), about 30 degree cut (half ball).

To get maximum side spin throw: straight-on shot, sliding CB (stop shot), about 1/2 maximum side spin.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Hi Randy,

Yeah, that is so much the worst part of my game it goes by the acronym of LaRe...

Last Resort. But I did make a great long jump shot in 8 ball once for the Win. I wish I had that one on video & then the guys face that just lost.

I'll have to work on that as more are playing lock up safeties now than ever.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Rick

Only the people that don't know me, play safes! Heck, I'll use a jump shot when there are other options on the table, if I think the jump shot is the best option! To me, jumping the ball is just another shot...that I have made a hundred times before. When faced with a shot you have made a hundred times before, you will have the confidence to make it again!
BTW, you will notice in the 1st shot of the jump video, I'm targeting the cue ball and nothing else! I did my "aiming" before I went down on the shot! The object ball is only a reference point...it is NOT my target!

Rick,
Jumping is like any other facet of the game. Learn the fundamentals (I highly recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Robin-Dodson-Mastering-Jump-Shot/dp/B006LN7RXI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427797974&sr=8-1&keywords=robin+dodson), then practice what you have learned! Don't forget...TOI works on jump shots too!
 
Last edited:
Of course, many players focus on the CB for jumpshots. I do the same, and also for masse, and break shots as well.

Not sure the point of the video in relation to the thread, but it gave me a chance to put a face with words, and glean some background info. Post some more vids in the future I enjoy watching them.




Only the people that don't know me, play safes! Heck, I'll use a jump shot when there are other options on the table, if I think the jump shot is the best option! To me, jumping the ball is just another shot...that I have made a hundred times before. When faced with a shot you have made a hundred times before, you will have the confidence to make it again!
BTW, you will notice in the 1st shot of the jump video, I'm targeting the cue ball and nothing else! I did my "aiming" before I went down on the shot! The object ball is only a reference point...it is NOT my target!
 
Hi Randy,

Yeah, that is so much the worst part of my game it goes by the acronym of LaRe...

Last Resort. But I did make a great long jump shot in 8 ball once for the Win. I wish I had that one on video & then the guys face that just lost.

I'll have to work on that as more are playing lock up safeties now than ever.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Rick

It's not really a lock up safety if the incoming player has a jump shot available.
 
Supporting Pool

Unfortunately, he speaks the truth. That is exactly why we need more CJ Wiley's to spark a renewed interest in the sport!

Yes, it's too bad other players can't come on azbilliards without fear of being ridiculed by the "dis-likers"......it's a sad state of affairs.

I receive a lot of input from other players like Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, and John Brumback that I share.

One thing's for sure, most of the knowledge I have was shared with me by other top professsional players through the years. Players like Wade Crane (Billy Johnson) "Omaha John" Shuput, Dalton Leong, Rusty Brandimiere, Mike Lebron, Efren Reyes, Jack Cooney, Sammy Jones, Roger Griffis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Steve Mizerack, Vernon Elliot, Tony Fargo, "Bugs", Doug Smith, SA John, Rodney Morris, Mark Tadd, and many more.

CJ,
No one here doubts your experience, how well you play etc and people respect all of that, but that doesn't mean we see things the way you do when it comes to the possiblity of ESPN coming to save pool.

I'm glad you are willing to share what you know here on AzBilliards. I hope you sell lots of stuff and I hope people get something out of it. Thats all anyone can hope for and I hope to find a way that Pool Room Owners can profit. Unless they do the game is leaving us every day on a local level. I could really care less if the Pros are making money if I have nowhere to play.

People adore the pro players you know that very well and people hang onto the words of the pro players. I find it disstressing that so few of them have any contact with amateurs. I like the fact that you do. I see that more money could fall into Pro Pockets simply by passing along what has been learned however.....

It's not plausible for me to believe that TV is going to save pool on a local level. I'm not a hater of you or anyone else. If the room owner doesn't make money, if the Pro player doesn't make money then what?

Why don't we see more pro players holding clinics and teaching lessons? It has a lot to do with some of them don't know how to teach I would imagine and some don't want to teach or make a date to teach somewhere.

Pool needs to figure it out. I am doing what I can at the local level and today am going to try to institute a Pilot Program at a place.

I wish you well on what you want to do at your end. I will look forward to seeing it to fruition and I will support it. I would support a lot of things including a Governing Body that had the audacity to want Player Members but no such body exists. If it did the focus in my opinion needs to be local first and get new people coming into the sport. I'm definitely not a hater but I am a realist.
 
BTW, I meant 1 mph or 17.6 inches per second or less.

As for frozen balls, it is not the same as hitting a single ball. There is transfer of spin from just the CB hitting the first ball in the combo. That ball is not thrown, but because of the spin of the C B hitting th first ball puts spin on it which will throw the second ball.

And that is totally dependent on the shot setup.

I've still never adjusted for CIT and after reflecting on it, I adjust for nothing. I put the CB where it needs to be based on what Im attempting with the shot.......there fore no adjusting.

And pretty damn good at frozen and not frozen combos.

More I reflect on it.......I don't even aim.......
 
Last edited:
I don't recall one(1) time where CJ has ever cast the 1st. stone.

I think if one looks back one will find that it was others that started the crap in one way or another.

CJ has comebacks that I think he hopes will quickly quell the crap. When that does not work, he often times just lets it slide. That is until it gets too deep & ignites. Then CJ either throws water on it or he fires back with what is usually a dose of reality.

Look at what some on AZB have done regarding other pro players & why there are almost none on what should be their favorite site.

To make it out like CJ is the problem given the big picture is faulty deductive reasoning.

If the majority of membership wants a Pro Less forum then declare it as such & prohibit anyone that makes any money from anything billiards related. But to me that is a bit of mob rule. If Management would like more Pro Players here then management would have to make it a more conducive place for them to be & it's just not so, as is.

The problem is within the AZB population not with CJ nor Pro Players as a group.

What AZB lacks even more than Pro Participation is true civility. It is nearly impossible for a member to express an opinion on AZB without some trying to shut down that expression of opinion that differs from theirs. If one sticks with their opinion & expresses it then it will in almost every situation get uncivil in one manner or another.

The first thread I ever opened was regarding civility or rather the lack of civility & that was in the Ask the Instructor sub forum.

Moderation of these forums is certainly difficult but an attitude of civility should be the standard & perhaps taught by very regular if short timeouts just as used by parents to teach children & not necessarily a set of specific rules. Rules can almost always be circumvented & skirted if one really wishes to do so. Then those that do do so pat themselves on the back for being so 'smart'.

Just my opinions & perhaps some food for thought.

Best 2 All,
Rick

PS Obviously it's not mine to do but if at all possible, I would clean up the unused sub forums & create categorizations such as Leaguers, Gamblers, Pros, Beginners, Old Timers, Stroke Mechanics, etc. Maybe then when one is another's house they might behave with more civility. But given what I've seen here that probably would not work either.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top