Im having a cue made and trying to decide if I want a big pin ivory joint or a piloted ivory joint. Just looking for some opinions.
Piloted Ivory Joint or Flat Faced Ivory Joint
- Thread starter jim_vielee
- Start date
Flat faced is the only way to go especially with ivory. I don't see the need to pilot ivory or actually any cue but hey, what do I know about ivory.
Structurally, you want to drill ivory as little as possible and keep the walls as thick as possible. Pressure fitting the shaft which may or may not swell into ivory is a recipe for cracking. And if it's not pressure fitted, then there's no purpose to doing a piloted joint. Truth is, piloted is no longer necessary these days as it's usefulness is yesterday's technology. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
That's one way to do it but I don't like that very thin ivory wall. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Give that man a Cigar! It's antiquated technology but then again what do I know.
Flat Ivory Jojnt With Big Pin
I just traded away a cue that had what's been heralded as the best piloted ivory joint made. The cue was a Paul Mottey and it played amazing.
If you look at the cues in my collection, what's the common denominator?
A flat ivory joint with big pin and even though my Mottey had the best piloted ivory joint, it still never played as well as my flat ivory joint cues.
Flat ivory cue joints are only cue joint I'll buy and I recently traded my Mottey cue for the Ed Prewitt cue which of course has a flat ivory joint. There
is a big difference in feel with flat ivory cue joints as each and every player that's tried my cues will attest.
Now you'll hear contrary tales from some Azers but there's a reason ivory plays different just on the sciences of metallurgy and physics but see for yourself.
Just make sure you play with a top end cue and make sure it's not too heavy. Stay around 19 ozs., or preferably lighter, so you can feel the difference in your
grip hand. I learned that heavier cues disguise the distinct feel of flat ivory cue joints and as you can tell from my signature, I put my money where my mouth is.
Matt B.
p.s. Keep in mind that you came to The Cue-maker section for comments and I'm just a pool player and cue buyer/owner so my comments & opinions may not matter.
I just traded away a cue that had what's been heralded as the best piloted ivory joint made. The cue was a Paul Mottey and it played amazing.
If you look at the cues in my collection, what's the common denominator?
A flat ivory joint with big pin and even though my Mottey had the best piloted ivory joint, it still never played as well as my flat ivory joint cues.
Flat ivory cue joints are only cue joint I'll buy and I recently traded my Mottey cue for the Ed Prewitt cue which of course has a flat ivory joint. There
is a big difference in feel with flat ivory cue joints as each and every player that's tried my cues will attest.
Now you'll hear contrary tales from some Azers but there's a reason ivory plays different just on the sciences of metallurgy and physics but see for yourself.
Just make sure you play with a top end cue and make sure it's not too heavy. Stay around 19 ozs., or preferably lighter, so you can feel the difference in your
grip hand. I learned that heavier cues disguise the distinct feel of flat ivory cue joints and as you can tell from my signature, I put my money where my mouth is.
Matt B.
p.s. Keep in mind that you came to The Cue-maker section for comments and I'm just a pool player and cue buyer/owner so my comments & opinions may not matter.
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Flat faced is the only way to go especially with ivory. I don't see the need to pilot ivory or actually any cue but hey, what do I know about ivory.
Structurally, you want to drill ivory as little as possible and keep the walls as thick as possible. Pressure fitting the shaft which may or may not swell into ivory is a recipe for cracking. And if it's not pressure fitted, then there's no purpose to doing a piloted joint. Truth is, piloted is no longer necessary these days as it's usefulness is yesterday's technology. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I believe that a piloted Ivory joint is better than flat faced if done the way Tascarella does them... Compression fit without the risk of pressure on the ivory is the key. Plus the shaft tongue works as mini core allowing the flat part of the shaft to contact the face and the outside wall of the tongue to contact the inside wall of the stainless ring... More contact at different angles is better in this case..
I believe that a piloted Ivory joint is better than flat faced if done the way Tascarella does them... Compression fit without the risk of pressure on the ivory is the key. Plus the shaft tongue works as mini core allowing the flat part of the shaft to contact the face and the outside wall of the tongue to contact the inside wall of the stainless ring... More contact at different angles is better in this case..
Bob Frey is going to be the one doing the joint.
I'm not sure how Bob does his piloted joints... There are those on AZ who do though..Maybe someone will chime in..
I don't agree. You'll be hard pressed to find a cue that "pings" more than that Martin tribute shown above, and the ivory on that cue is nothing but a decorative veneer. The joint style isn't what creates the "ping". In fact, I would question whether it has any bearing at all on the hit of the cue.
As for a pilot touching the base of the receiver, it's not supposed to. Doing so would be counter productive to the interface between collar & shaft. A pilot was and is purposed for centering the shaft to the butt, given that the steel pin into a brass insert is generally a little bit sloppy. It doesn't necessarily have to be a compression fit, but should fit within a thou or so in order to serve the purpose. The insert should NEVER contact the base of the joint.
Hi,
I guess this tread discussion comes down to constructing an ivory joint that will stand up over years of use?? Here is my procedure to deal with this topic. Other methods work just fine but this is just my way of doing it.
I agree with Joe that the smallest bore hole thru the ivory joint is the best way to approach ivory with respect to the structural integrity. Big aspect ratio or foot print with largest surface area is the way view it. I also know that while drilling the blind hole in ivory it is imperative to keep the heat from building up by using very sharp tools, air and cutting fluid. I step drill my ivory and asbestos Micarta starting with a 3/16" then up to 1/4" using Tap Free 2 and air at 275 rpm never inserting the bit over 1/4" embedment before withdrawing to blowing air and reintroduce the cutting fluid again. Once I get the 1/4" drill thru, I then use the micro boring bar at 1550 rpm lightly boring with the cutting fluid and air. Heat is the enemy.
Keeping the heat in check is the key IMO. Same goes for the ferrules. The cutting fluid makes all the difference especially in the first blind hole when pecking. This is a good practice when working with most man made materials too. If you smell something burning or see something scorching, you might want to slow things down, use some cutting fluid and take things easy.
I also prefer the big pin flat faced joint connection along with high strength slow cure 105 206 West System Epoxy for all joint materials.
Everyone has their views and opinions concerning this subject and there is no right or wrong, only a preferred shop procedure that each cue maker uses based on his experience and track record for success with a certain method.
Rick
I guess this tread discussion comes down to constructing an ivory joint that will stand up over years of use?? Here is my procedure to deal with this topic. Other methods work just fine but this is just my way of doing it.
I agree with Joe that the smallest bore hole thru the ivory joint is the best way to approach ivory with respect to the structural integrity. Big aspect ratio or foot print with largest surface area is the way view it. I also know that while drilling the blind hole in ivory it is imperative to keep the heat from building up by using very sharp tools, air and cutting fluid. I step drill my ivory and asbestos Micarta starting with a 3/16" then up to 1/4" using Tap Free 2 and air at 275 rpm never inserting the bit over 1/4" embedment before withdrawing to blowing air and reintroduce the cutting fluid again. Once I get the 1/4" drill thru, I then use the micro boring bar at 1550 rpm lightly boring with the cutting fluid and air. Heat is the enemy.
Keeping the heat in check is the key IMO. Same goes for the ferrules. The cutting fluid makes all the difference especially in the first blind hole when pecking. This is a good practice when working with most man made materials too. If you smell something burning or see something scorching, you might want to slow things down, use some cutting fluid and take things easy.
I also prefer the big pin flat faced joint connection along with high strength slow cure 105 206 West System Epoxy for all joint materials.
Everyone has their views and opinions concerning this subject and there is no right or wrong, only a preferred shop procedure that each cue maker uses based on his experience and track record for success with a certain method.
Rick
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Why do you think a piloted joint gives a firmer hit?
I think a flat faced joint gives a firmer hit.
BUT.... neither of us has any scientific proof either way.....
Kim
Ivory Joints
When it comes to which joint hits best it's all about what the customer believes he knows. Most times what he credits for a particular hit has nothing to do with it. Ivory is just one component in the mix whether piloted, stainless sleeved, flat faced, or window dressing.
No ping.
Mario
When it comes to which joint hits best it's all about what the customer believes he knows. Most times what he credits for a particular hit has nothing to do with it. Ivory is just one component in the mix whether piloted, stainless sleeved, flat faced, or window dressing.
No ping.
Mario
The ping comes from the ferrule, and maybe the tip, depending on what is combined, IMHO. The joint may give some feel to the overall hit, but will never cause the 'ping'....
Aside from that, my vote is for a flat-faced joint. The piloted ...to me, is as Joe put it earlier,....out dated and serves no purpose.
Dave
Aside from that, my vote is for a flat-faced joint. The piloted ...to me, is as Joe put it earlier,....out dated and serves no purpose.
Dave
That's some pretty strong statements there... May be you should have a conversation with makers that build piloted joints with a compression fit and tell them it serves no purpose...
I think he just did assuming those builders read posts on AZB.
What's more is that I'll second it.
"Today's pilot serves no functional purpose".
If you'd care to convince me otherwise, I'd be willing to listen (read).
'Name-dropping' doesn't impress me so let's stick to facts.
KJ
As I stated earlier, the pilot is for alignment. It's typically used on 5/16-14 & 18 joints where there is a steel pin going in to a brass insert. Those pins are most generally rolled, not cut, and as such have inconsistencies. Not only do the pins have inconsistencies, but most of all they fit somewhat sloppy in the insert. As the joint faces compress, the shaft will shift to the side of least resistance, to the amount of slop between pin & insert. A pilot prevents the shaft from shifting, and ensures it locks down dead center every time. Not only does it make the joint more precise, it also makes things easier on the builder.
By having the pilot center everything, the shafts can be cut to size SEPARATE from the cue, which keeps the cut concentric to center. Shafts can be made in bulk, without having to be machine mated to butts, and they will fit dead center on every butt the same builder makes. This streamlines production while adding a significant amount of consistency & repeatability. Without a pilot, the builder is at the mercy of how well the pin fits the insert. Those type joints are notoriously sloppy fit, and not all of us are ok with having misfits where the shaft/butt fit has a ledge. Yes it can be fixed easy enough by sanding shaft & butt together, but not all of us want to rely on that. We prefer to machine things to fit correctly, so that there is no need for such measures in the first place. This is a point I believe where the importance of a pilot lies mostly in the specific builders' standard of accuracy.
I use a big pin in wood, and it is designed with the pilot concept in mind, except that the minor diameter of the pin acts as the pilot. Same concept with the Radial. There's no convincing me that a pilot is outdated or unnecessary. I see it's purpose quite clearly. I don't know why some folks don't get it. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. Believe what you wish. But for somebody to discount a pilot because they don't understand its purpose or how to properly utilize it, is naive. It's function very simply is to align the shaft to the center line of the butt. And it does so rather effectively, when utilized properly.