I'm going to explain rails to everyone, and rail calibration!

JC said:
Hey Glen I don't know if you heard the news from Rich yet or not but I put a patent on your pocket gauge while you were down here working on my table. I did it during one of your "breaks". I'll be collecting royalties now each time you use it.:)

Nice to see you back

JC
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Well pack up your bags buddy and get ready to follow me around the country, make sure you bring the wife, cat soup is darn good:grin:
 
realkingcobra said:
Well pack up your bags buddy and get ready to follow me around the country, make sure you bring the wife, cat soup is darn good:grin:
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I still have cat paw prints on the wall in my shop at about the 8 foot level.

I wonder if that's from when Theresa was capturing him for the soup?:yikes:
 
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Hi Glen! Unlike some of the same questions that keep coming up in this forum, it's good to see you back.
 
Rail questions

O.K., I've recently joined AZB, not as a mechanic, I'm not. Not as a player, I've just recently taken an interest in pool and can't run two balls in a row. But, I do appreciate knowledge and the power it imparts on the holder. I've been reading everything I can on this site and appreciate the knowledge that the experts offer up for the betterment of the community. To all of you I say "thank you."
I have to agree with something, I think it was Mark who said it, that pool players for the most part will spend hundreds of dollars on cloth, balls, tips, cues, cases and instructional materials but then scrimp on their tables. And then wish their table played like a blue label Diamond.
Anyway, on to my questions about rails.
I assume when you all speak about rails, you are talking about the entire rail......the wood substructure, exterior finish material, cushions and cloth. Is that correct? And when you all speak of sub-rails are you referring to the wooden part of the rail that supports the cushion material?
I'm a little confused on the whole topic of sub-rails and exactly what compromises what a sub-rail is.
If I remember correctly, Glenn says sub-rails should measure 1 11/16" with a facing angle of 23.5 degrees, using K-55 rubber to achieve an ideal nose height of 1 27/64 ". I assume this ideal height is the same regardless if we are talking about K-55, K-66 of U-23 rubber?
And 1 27/64" is a pretty finite number. Not having any personal experience of my own with cushions, I have the impression it's rather difficult to pinpoint the exact point on the cushion face where you would measure because of the roundness of the cushion's nose profile?
So, that's my concern, that's my lack of understanding.
Anyone care to advance on the topic?
 
Cuefinger said:
O.K., I've recently joined AZB, not as a mechanic, I'm not. Not as a player, I've just recently taken an interest in pool and can't run two balls in a row. But, I do appreciate knowledge and the power it imparts on the holder. I've been reading everything I can on this site and appreciate the knowledge that the experts offer up for the betterment of the community. To all of you I say "thank you."
I have to agree with something, I think it was Mark who said it, that pool players for the most part will spend hundreds of dollars on cloth, balls, tips, cues, cases and instructional materials but then scrimp on their tables. And then wish their table played like a blue label Diamond.
Anyway, on to my questions about rails.
I assume when you all speak about rails, you are talking about the entire rail......the wood substructure, exterior finish material, cushions and cloth. Is that correct? And when you all speak of sub-rails are you referring to the wooden part of the rail that supports the cushion material?
I'm a little confused on the whole topic of sub-rails and exactly what compromises what a sub-rail is.
If I remember correctly, Glenn says sub-rails should measure 1 11/16" with a facing angle of 23.5 degrees, using K-55 rubber to achieve an ideal nose height of 1 27/64 ". I assume this ideal height is the same regardless if we are talking about K-55, K-66 of U-23 rubber?
And 1 27/64" is a pretty finite number. Not having any personal experience of my own with cushions, I have the impression it's rather difficult to pinpoint the exact point on the cushion face where you would measure because of the roundness of the cushion's nose profile?
So, that's my concern, that's my lack of understanding.
Anyone care to advance on the topic?
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First off, it's not the real pool players that cheapen out on having their pool tables worked on, for the most part it's the cue collecting wannabe pool players that like to show off, trade, talk about....their cue collections rather that spend a dollar on their pool table as it don't hold the same value to them as their cues and cases do.

Sub rails are the part of the rail that sits between the top finish of the rail and the nose of the cushion. Different thickness sub rails require different profile cushions, which also equates to different cushion nose heights. A 1 11/16th thick sub rail works best with a K55 profile cushion only. That don't mean a K66' profile cushion can't be used as well, it just won't play right, but dumb people do that all the time because they don't know any better and don't really care to know, correct work has nothing to do with getting paid!
 
realkingcobra said:
First off, it's not the real pool players that cheapen out on having their pool tables worked on, for the most part it's the cue collecting wannabe pool players that like to show off, trade, talk about....their cue collections rather that spend a dollar on their pool table as it don't hold the same value to them as their cues and cases do.

Sub rails are the part of the rail that sits between the top finish of the rail and the nose of the cushion. Different thickness sub rails require different profile cushions, which also equates to different cushion nose heights. A 1 11/16th thick sub rail works best with a K55 profile cushion only. That don't mean a K66' profile cushion can't be used as well, it just won't play right, but dumb people do that all the time because they don't know any better and don't really care to know, correct work has nothing to do with getting paid!
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I am also confused what a sub rail is. Is it sub-rail plus cushion = rail? Is the 1 11/16" from the slate bed to the top of the rail?
 
jtompilot said:
I am also confused what a sub rail is. Is it sub-rail plus cushion = rail? Is the 1 11/16" from the slate bed to the top of the rail?
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Take a GC for example, the sub rail is everything on the rail that the rail cloth wraps around, and yes the sub rail thickness is measured from the surface of the slate to the top part of the wood to where the top back of the cushion's meet the wood liner.
 
More sub-rails

Found this at another site. The measurements are slightly different than those mentioned earlier by Glenn but perhaps Glenn was being specific to Gold Crowns whereas this image is rather generic.
 
I think the bottom line is that for everyone who plays pool, very few care that the rails play right.

Of those, very very few know what the rails should play like.

Of those, very very very few know how to make them play right.
 
Cuefinger said:
Found this at another site. The measurements are slightly different than those mentioned earlier by Glenn but perhaps Glenn was being specific to Gold Crowns whereas this image is rather generic.
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The 63 1/2% +/- 1% ball height was based on a 1 11/16th sub rail thickness. Thinner sub rails require a lower nose height to make the cushion's play right. A 1 5/8ths thick sub rail plays best with K66' cushions when the nose height is set to 1 3/8ths, and a 1 1/2" sub rail plays best with K66' cushions with the nose height set at 1 5/16th....so ball height % went out the door when sub rails started being made at all different thicknesses.
 
realkingcobra said:
The 63 1/2% +/- 1% ball height was based on a 1 11/16th sub rail thickness. Thinner sub rails require a lower nose height to make the cushion's play right. A 1 5/8ths thick sub rail plays best with K66' cushions when the nose height is set to 1 3/8ths, and a 1 1/2" sub rail plays best with K66' cushions with the nose height set at 1 5/16th....so ball height % went out the door when sub rails started being made at all different thicknesses.
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That's some science right there.
 
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At what point does the Nose Height Matter?

realkingcobra said:
The 63 1/2% +/- 1% ball height was based on a 1 11/16th sub rail thickness. Thinner sub rails require a lower nose height to make the cushion's play right. A 1 5/8ths thick sub rail plays best with K66' cushions when the nose height is set to 1 3/8ths, and a 1 1/2" sub rail plays best with K66' cushions with the nose height set at 1 5/16th....so ball height % went out the door when sub rails started being made at all different thicknesses.
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First off, thanks for all of your posts over the years, Glen. I've collected most of them, and I've really learned a lot. They helped me adjust my previous home table, and now that I've switched from a 9' to a 10', I'm going through the process again.

Now, concerning thinner sub rails, you state the following for K66 cushions:

If sub rail thickness = 1 5/8"; optimal cushion nose height = 1 3/8"
If sub rail thickness = 1 1/2"; optimal cushion nose height = 1 5/16"

My sub rail thickness is noticeably greater than 1 1/2", but just a hair less than 1 5/8" - probably closer 1 19/32", although at least one sub rail did measure 1 5/8". And my cushion nose height also falls into this range that you describe, with a nose height of 1 3/8" (on average). So it sounds like my sub rails are ready for some new, quality K66 profile cushions, and they'll be good to go. The problem is . . . my table is a snooker table. I believe you mentioned possibly re-beveling to raise the nose height in the past, so I'm just seeing if you've since experimented a bit and decided that this range of measurements also works, or possibly my table was set up incorrectly for snooker to begin with. The cushions I just removed measured 1 1/8", so they appear to be similar to the modern K66 cushion, in size at least.

When I removed the old cushions, they were marked with the following: "MATCH MONARCH CUSHIONS PAT. AUG. 29, 1892 MFC'D BY THE BRUNSWICK-BAULKE-COLLENDER CO. U.S.A."

All of my Snooker to Pool table conversion questions have been answered through old posts on this forum, except this particular question. Well, in truth, it has been answered, but the answers have been conflicting...some say re-bevel, adjust the sub rail height, or that it simply cannot be done properly, but your post indicates that my table might be fine, as is. I trust your judgment on this, Glenn. If you think a 1 5/8" sub rail (or just a hair thereunder) and a 1 3/8" nose height will perform well with K66 cushions, I'm not going to try to adjust the sub rails.

I'll probably still replace the rail liners (or at least extend them, because near the pocket, the wood starts curving prior to the spot my pocket mouths will begin, so that will need adjustment), but I just don't want to change something that was already correct (meaning the sub rail height, cushion profile, and bevel). Especially since I'm not trying to get this table to play like a Diamond or anything it's not, I just want it to play really well for an older 10' Brunswick. Thanks for your time.

P.S. If I wanted to re-sell this table, I'd just build another set of rails . . . it's probably faster anyway, and I'd have both a snooker and a pool set to offer. However, this is my home table, and I want to keep it as original as possible. I think the rails are the nicest part of this table, and if I left them as snooker rails, I'd never get to see them. I like pool too much.

Also: My title should have read "Ball Height Percentage", not "Nose Height" Sorry for the confusion.
 
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realkingcobra said:
I've been contacted by such a customer in Connecticut, who laid out some serious money to buy his dream table, a 9ft Anniversary, refinished and rebuilt by a very well known refinisher. He asked for the Artemis cushions to be installed as well, so they were. Well, he contacted me to talk about how his table plays, because even though it's a very beautiful table, it plays like shit. He asked me if he should contact the seller and voice his concerns about how bad the table plays, to which I replied, if the seller knew how to make the table play right in the first place, you'd have never contacted me, so involving the seller in your complaint about how the table plays is going to be a waste of time.
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This is exactly what I just got from BilliardRestorations. It plays like I assembled it. Balls hop, jump, etc. The head rail (Brunswick Ave) is noticeably high on one side and cloth too tight at the end of rail where it ends at pocket.The cushion is bending in.
It's great excuse for me banking poorly. But seriously I took for granted the table would be great player. It's anything but. It's perfect for a banger's table in a bar. May I suggest to anyone buying a new table or having work done on a current table is research who you deal with....and know what you are getting. Most pool table sales people and mechanics talk better than they walk. If you find the right person...wait for them. Pay them whatever they charge and thank them.
Old thread renewed but much appreciated.
 
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I love this thread. Excellent info from the experts!
I recently recovered a Diamond red label that Glen rebuilt, and I have to say it was probably one of the nicest playing and well put together tables I've every worked on. Rails and pockets were dead on, the 3 piece slates were within just a few thousandths of level total (all the way around), I moved one shim slightly and moved one leg adjuster slightly and it was way within tolerances. The metal plates connecting the seams, and the custom pocket finishers that screwed in from the top of the slate were an excellent touch. It does seem that most mechanics DO NOT have the attitude that the tables they work on should be left playing as good as they can, but should be done as quickly as possible to maximize profits. It takes TIME to get things right. A good mechanic should charge a premium, and spend the time it takes. Pool needs help, not hacks. Diamond has listened to the experts, and that is why their tables are good for pool. They play consistently if taken care of.
 
Sheldon said:
I love this thread. Excellent info from the experts!
I recently recovered a Diamond red label that Glen rebuilt, and I have to say it was probably one of the nicest playing and well put together tables I've every worked on. Rails and pockets were dead on, the 3 piece slates were within just a few thousandths of level total (all the way around), I moved one shim slightly and moved one leg adjuster slightly and it was way within tolerances. The metal plates connecting the seams, and the custom pocket finishers that screwed in from the top of the slate were an excellent touch. It does seem that most mechanics DO NOT have the attitude that the tables they work on should be left playing as good as they can, but should be done as quickly as possible to maximize profits. It takes TIME to get things right. A good mechanic should charge a premium, and spend the time it takes. Pool needs help, not hacks. Diamond has listened to the experts, and that is why their tables are good for pool. They play consistently if taken care of.
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And I may add you did a really good job of recovering it too. I love pool again without that dirty old cloth rattling every ball that isn't perfectly stroked.

Glen told me a couple of weeks ago that the table was still level even though it had been 7 years since he built it. I asked him how he knew and he only laughed on the phone.

And those cat prints are still on the wall.
 
GoldCrown said:
This is exactly what I just got from BilliardRestorations. It plays like I assembled it. Balls hop, jump, etc. The head rail (Brunswick Ave) is noticeably high on one side and cloth too tight at the end of rail where it ends at pocket.The cushion is bending in.
It's great excuse for me banking poorly. But seriously I took for granted the table would be great player. It's anything but. It's perfect for a banger's table in a bar. May I suggest to anyone buying a new table or having work done on a current table is research who you deal with....and know what you are getting. Most pool table sales people and mechanics talk better than they walk. If you find the right person...wait for them. Pay them whatever they charge and thank them.
Old thread renewed but much appreciated.
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Since I've read so much about your misfortune, would you mind saying when this happened? How long have you had this table you're suffering from?
 
jviss said:
Since I've read so much about your misfortune, would you mind saying when this happened? How long have you had this table you're suffering from?
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3 weeks today. I’m shoving it into a closet so I don’t have to look at it.
 
GoldCrown said:
3 weeks today. I’m shoving it into a closet so I don’t have to look at it.
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Must be a big closet. I honestly don't know why you don't pursue the seller, and get some kind of a resolution that results in them taking it back, and you getting some of the money back; but, not my deal.
 
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