Darren Appleton's post on FB about the pro division at SBE

[Tobermory]

I know I repeat myself from a posting of a year or so ago, but apparently the advice I gave then has gone unheeded, or just has been dismissed, by some of the people in this thread, so here goes aqain, in shorter form.

You will never improve your game by being "dead money." You will not LEARN anything by playing Efren Reyes. You may enjoy the experience, and you may want the memory of having done it, but you will not LEARN anything that will improve your game by playing him.

You will improve your pool game by 1.) Taking lessons from qualified instructors, 2.) watching better players play, 3.) reading books and studying instructional tapes, 4.) getting tapes of matches from Accu-Stats and paying attention to the commentary, 5.) playing players who are one or two grades above you (if you are a C, try to get a B- to play with you), 6.) practicing by yourself in a place where you will not be disturbed.

 

[lfigueroa]

I know I repeat myself from a posting of a year or so ago, but apparently the advice I gave then has gone unheeded, or just has been dismissed, by some of the people in this thread, so here goes aqain, in shorter form.

You will never improve your game by being "dead money." You will not LEARN anything by playing Efren Reyes. You may enjoy the experience, and you may want the memory of having done it, but you will not LEARN anything that will improve your game by playing him.

You will improve your pool game by 1.) Taking lessons from qualified instructors, 2.) watching better players play, 3.) reading books and studying instructional tapes, 4.) getting tapes of matches from Accu-Stats and paying attention to the commentary, 5.) playing players who are one or two grades above you (if you are a C, try to get a B- to play with you), 6.) practicing by yourself in a place where you will not be disturbed.

BS.

I'm the poster child for "dead money" and playing Efren, Darren, DS, WK, SF, BH, and on and on has been a tremendous boost to my game. First off, not every shot the pros execute requires a pro level stroke -- it requires pro level thinking. And that, you can take away. So many times I have been in a match and had a pro execute a shot on me and I see how effective it is, I say to myself, "that was pretty cool" or, "I need to learn that shot" and I bring those shots and strategies home to deploy against the locales. Trust me: experiencing it first hand *and having to respond* is not the same as watching it at home on your computer.

Up close, you also get a vantage point to observe pro level mechanics. To see what bridges they use, their grip, stance, head position, whether they drop their elbow, just how they conduct themselves. Yes, I know you can see some of that on video but it's different in person where you get to see it from every angle.

Lastly, you get to see how your game stacks up against the best and from that you can take solace, comfort, and/or inspiration. Not unlike the team that has made it to the playoffs before, you will take the experience of having played the best with you and you'll be in a stronger position when, at home, you take on the local champ or make it to the hot seat.

Take the lessons if you want, watch the videos, practice of course, but getting out there and jumping into the deep end of the pool is a great learning experience.

Lou Figueroa

 

[KRJ]

I know I repeat myself from a posting of a year or so ago, but apparently the advice I gave then has gone unheeded, or just has been dismissed, by some of the people in this thread, so here goes aqain, in shorter form.

You will never improve your game by being "dead money." You will not LEARN anything by playing Efren Reyes. You may enjoy the experience, and you may want the memory of having done it, but you will not LEARN anything that will improve your game by playing him.

You will improve your pool game by 1.) Taking lessons from qualified instructors, 2.) watching better players play, 3.) reading books and studying instructional tapes, 4.) getting tapes of matches from Accu-Stats and paying attention to the commentary, 5.) playing players who are one or two grades above you (if you are a C, try to get a B- to play with you), 6.) practicing by yourself in a place where you will not be disturbed.

While you are correct in stating some of the things that will make you better, the first part is just stupid. It's called having fun. That is what pool is suppose to be. And if folks want to play the best players in the world, so what, that's fun.

I can and do get my brains bashed in around these parts by a couple of pro level players, they just don't wanna go pro because they can't afford the pay cut. Win, lose or draw, you're still playing the game you love. Can't be all that bad ? If the game is not fun, or you don't handle defeat well, you might wanna take up gardening.

 

[West Point 1987]

BS.

I'm the poster child for "dead money" and playing Efren, Darren, DS, WK, SF, BH, and on and on has been a tremendous boost to my game. First off, not every shot the pros execute requires a pro level stroke -- it requires pro level thinking. And that, you can take away. So many times I have been in a match and had a pro execute a shot on me and I see how effective it is, I say to myself, "that was pretty cool" or, "I need to learn that shot" and I bring those shots and strategies home to deploy against the locales. Trust me: experiencing it first hand *and having to respond* is not the same as watching it at home.

Up close, you also get a vantage point to observe pro level mechanics. To see what bridges they use, their grip, stance, head position, whether they drop their elbow, just how they conduct themselves. Yes, I know you can see some of that on video but it's different in person where you get to see it from every angle.

Lastly, you get to see how your game stacks up against the best and from that you can take solace, comfort, and/or inspiration. Not unlike the team that has made it to the playoffs before, you will take the experience of having played the best with you and you'll be in a stronger position when, at home, you take on the local champ or make it to the hot seat.

Take the lessons if you want, watch the videos, practice of course, but getting out there and jumping int the deep end of the pool is a great learning experience.

Lou Figueroa

Perfectly stated. Nothing like up close experience with the top level players. I watch videos and am on the rail at events as much as possible. But there's no learning experience like sitting in the opponent's chair and watching with the level of concentration required in competition vice being a spectator. Warp speed learning. You're not learning how YOUR mechanics should work but are learning how to think better and at a higher level. That's the lesson you're paying for with your dead money. In my book that's money well spent. :wink:

 

[KRJ]

Just for the record - since it is being reported incorrectly here: the event paid out a total of $41,000, to the top 24 players (more than what was advertised). With 64 entrants at $500 a pop, that is $9000 over the collected prize pool. That doesn't factor in the paid entry that the previous year's winner always receives and the entry that was donated to the winner of Oscar Dominguez' tour. All in all, $10,000 in the prize pool that did not come from players.

I appreciate the feedback that is being provided here, even if it may be negative. We do listen and try to do our best to improve. Admittedly, the last few years have been tough because we had to move out of our 20-year home (that was almost perfect for our event) and find and move into new venues. We put a lot of thought into planning and promoting every event - but we don't get dress rehearsals. We can't set everything up and run a test-run. We can't predict how many people will turn out and/or whether or not a new venue will succeed. Once we get re-established in a new home, we will learn and adapt and make everything as good as we can again. What we can do is offer a guaranteed first place payout, and make sure that everyone gets paid, as promised. If anyone thinks that organizing and executing an event of this magnitude is easy and/or does not involve staggering costs - both obvious and hidden, then please, by all means - start another one. The west coast would be a great place to start.

I do not wish to get into a long messaging battle on here - mostly because I know they never turn out well for either side, nor do I have the time right now. My father is old school, he doesn't read forums or use social media sites. But he listens, and he talks to anyone and everyone. I feel this matter could have been addressed with a phone call or a private message (as one other prominent player chose to do) ... if you, Darren, or anyone else wishes to discuss thoughts about the pro event, or any other aspect of the expo, feel free to call him - the number is widely available on our website. He answers each and every call himself. You can reach him at (609)652-6116. I handle emails and any type of online correspondence - and you can send those to info@superbilliardsexpo.com. Starting discussions online with someone who is never online doesn't seem like much of a fair battle to me, or even something that would qualify as a "discussion" ... If you want answers or meaningful discourse or just want to make your feelings known, why not go straight to the source?

Thanks again to everyone for being a part of the Super Billiards Expo!

Darren brings up some valid points. You don't need a dry run to know not to play slop 10ball, or provide crappy racks, or decide how lenient you will be on dress code, or decide not to stream ? Why not just agree to take a cut of stream, so both can make money, and the fans get to watch.

I have to admit, we had crappy cheap plastic racks at state this year with NO overhead lighting, and it kinda sucked. Yeah, it was an amateur tournanment, and was not expecting super models, champagne, or even Diamond tables, but spending more time racking than playing was bad, but not being able to see the dark balls on the rails was even worse.

Thus, he does makes valid points, it's not all about the money

 

[philly]

I know I repeat myself from a posting of a year or so ago, but apparently the advice I gave then has gone unheeded, or just has been dismissed, by some of the people in this thread, so here goes aqain, in shorter form.

You will never improve your game by being "dead money." You will not LEARN anything by playing Efren Reyes. You may enjoy the experience, and you may want the memory of having done it, but you will not LEARN anything that will improve your game by playing him.

You will improve your pool game by 1.) Taking lessons from qualified instructors, 2.) watching better players play, 3.) reading books and studying instructional tapes, 4.) getting tapes of matches from Accu-Stats and paying attention to the commentary, 5.) playing players who are one or two grades above you (if you are a C, try to get a B- to play with you), 6.) practicing by yourself in a place where you will not be disturbed.

Not entirely off base. Just mostly off base. The things you state possibly work for you. Everyone is different. I am different than you in that reading books and watching instruction does not work for me. Yes what works for me is my practice time and playing better players possibly with a wager on the line.

 

[cardiac kid]

Thanks again to everyone for being a part of the Super Billiards Expo!

OK Junior, tell the truth. What are the dates for next year so I can make reservations?

Thanks to you and your Dad for the great events. Kept me busy for four days.

Incidentally, California is way too far. How about another SBE in November? :thumbup:

Lyn

 

[cookie man]

Did you miss the part about going from $25K added with decent streaming to $3k added in the dark? It used to BE a prestigious event that has been turned into a joke.

All Daz is saying is that it sucks the event has gone downhill. I agree with him.

EDIT: And yes I realize agreeing with the guy whose face is in my sig line isnt that big a leap but I would be the first to disagree if he was spouting the nonsense a few in this thread try to make him out to be.

The pro side may be a joke but the Amateur side is thriving, and lets face it, when it comes to pool nowadays that's where the money is.

 

[poolguy4u]

.


This is the first time I heard someone complain about the wooden racks used.

What was wrong with the wooden racks? Weren't they the same custom made

wooden racks as the last two years?

 

[dnschmidt]

THANK YOU DARREN for telling it like it is. Obviously, you are completely right. American pro pool is either dying or officially dead. If pro pool was on a heart monitor I'm fairly certain it would be flat lined. SBE was a joke, I'm not flying 2500 miles to see another one where the matches are artificially scheduled to end at 2:00 AM when they could have easily been finished at 10:00 nor will my brother be driving 250 miles to enjoy that idiocy either.

I love Mark Griffin and what he is trying to do for the game but going to bar tables for the CSI pro events at the Rio to me is the final nail in the coffin of American pro pool. The only event left is the U. S. Open run by a drunk egotistical midget with a Napoleon complex. HOW BAD IS THAT?

 

[BasementDweller]

Darren brings up some valid points. You don't need a dry run to know not to play slop 10ball, or provide crappy racks, or decide how lenient you will be on dress code, or decide not to stream ? Why not just agree to take a cut of stream, so both can make money, and the fans get to watch.

I have to admit, we had crappy cheap plastic racks at state this year with NO overhead lighting, and it kinda sucked. Yeah, it was an amateur tournanment, and was not expecting super models, champagne, or even Diamond tables, but spending more time racking than playing was bad, but not being able to see the dark balls on the rails was even worse.

Thus, he does makes valid points, it's not all about the money

All well said, now I just wonder if I'm the only guy that has grown tired of promotors that try to quash criticism by playing the "why didn't you just call me" card?

They didn't call because they have criticisms that they wanted to express publicly. It's that simple really. Plus in 2015 it's probably a more effective method of encouraging change than a phone call is.

 

[cardiac kid]

I love Mark Griffin and what he is trying to do for the game but going to bar tables for the CSI pro events at the Rio to me is the final nail in the coffin of American pro pool. The only event left is the U. S. Open run by a drunk egotistical 9midget with a Napoleon complex. HOW BAD IS THAT?

Perhaps YOU are missing MG's point. The game of pool is now a seven foot game. Not nine foot. Am I happy about it? Not really. Makes it way too easy. For Darren and myself. What does it say when Allen Hopkins can fill three events to capacity? How about the US Bar Box event? All the national sanctioning bodies play their championships on seven footers. Perhaps pro pool will just have to adjust or sadly die off. Which choice is better? JMHO.

Lyn

 

[fish on]

great event suggestion

Just for the record - since it is being reported incorrectly here: the event paid out a total of $41,000, to the top 24 players (more than what was advertised). With 64 entrants at $500 a pop, that is $9000 over the collected prize pool. That doesn't factor in the paid entry that the previous year's winner always receives and the entry that was donated to the winner of Oscar Dominguez' tour. All in all, $10,000 in the prize pool that did not come from players.

I appreciate the feedback that is being provided here, even if it may be negative. We do listen and try to do our best to improve. Admittedly, the last few years have been tough because we had to move out of our 20-year home (that was almost perfect for our event) and find and move into new venues. We put a lot of thought into planning and promoting every event - but we don't get dress rehearsals. We can't set everything up and run a test-run. We can't predict how many people will turn out and/or whether or not a new venue will succeed. Once we get re-established in a new home, we will learn and adapt and make everything as good as we can again. What we can do is offer a guaranteed first place payout, and make sure that everyone gets paid, as promised. If anyone thinks that organizing and executing an event of this magnitude is easy and/or does not involve staggering costs - both obvious and hidden, then please, by all means - start another one. The west coast would be a great place to start.

I do not wish to get into a long messaging battle on here - mostly because I know they never turn out well for either side, nor do I have the time right now. My father is old school, he doesn't read forums or use social media sites. But he listens, and he talks to anyone and everyone. I feel this matter could have been addressed with a phone call or a private message (as one other prominent player chose to do) ... if you, Darren, or anyone else wishes to discuss thoughts about the pro event, or any other aspect of the expo, feel free to call him - the number is widely available on our website. He answers each and every call himself. You can reach him at (609)652-6116. I handle emails and any type of online correspondence - and you can send those to info@superbilliardsexpo.com. Starting discussions online with someone who is never online doesn't seem like much of a fair battle to me, or even something that would qualify as a "discussion" ... If you want answers or meaningful discourse or just want to make your feelings known, why not go straight to the source?

Thanks again to everyone for being a part of the Super Billiards Expo!

Hi best event I ever attended ty
I/we want to see the best of the best players!!
Yes Efren, Busty etc..

I suggest we all pay a couple of extra bucks towards getting them there ?

a combination of added attendance fees ,increased expo food /drink sales ,more venders with bigger sales generated, a larger paid nicer vip area and increase size of general admission area .
please ask your dad to think big again!

There were no space issues at the expo and it could easily expand with demand this would be the #1 event worldwide!!!

Your Dad had the balls to try the 1 million $ tour !
maybe 100k first place and less money for the rest the first year would work!

I think after first year it would work fine with the added monies generated!

suggestions are ok to make things better, ALLEN will listen to you Darren and rest of pros remember Allen Hopkins is cut from your cloth!:thumbup:

 

[dnschmidt]

My reply to Cardiac Kid.

Being dead is better than being crippled. My personal view of life or pro pool.

 

[cardiac kid]

My reply to Cardiac Kid.

Being dead is better than being crippled. My personal view of life or pro pool.

Can "hear" the frustration in your post. When I began playing the game we obviously both love, ten footers were the norm. As more rooms opened in the Seventies and Eighties, nine footers became the norm. Used to think going to a room with 5" plus Brunswick's was a smarter choice when taking a young lady out rather then the 4" Diamonds. Now a bar box is the table of choice. Who wants to be embarrassed missing all the time ?

Once asked that question while speaking with Aaron Aragon. He had a somewhat different perspective on life. Just saying.

Lyn

 

[philly]

Can "hear" the frustration in your post. When I began playing the game we obviously both love, ten footers were the norm. As more rooms opened in the Seventies and Eighties, nine footers became the norm. Used to think going to a room with 5" plus Brunswick's was a smarter choice when taking a young lady out rather then the 4" Diamonds. Now a bar box is the table of choice. Who wants to be embarrassed missing all the time ?

Once asked that question while speaking with Aaron Aragon. He had a somewhat different perspective on life. Just saying.

Lyn

When I think of the proliferation of 7 footers I just hang my head. If all I had to play on were bar boxes I wouldn't play nearly as much if at all. I have a feeling 6 footers are on the way. The horror.

 

[thewhiffer]

Just for the record - since it is being reported incorrectly here: the event paid out a total of $41,000, to the top 24 players (more than what was advertised). With 64 entrants at $500 a pop, that is $9000 over the collected prize pool. That doesn't factor in the paid entry that the previous year's winner always receives and the entry that was donated to the winner of Oscar Dominguez' tour. All in all, $10,000 in the prize pool that did not come from players.

I appreciate the feedback that is being provided here, even if it may be negative. We do listen and try to do our best to improve. Admittedly, the last few years have been tough because we had to move out of our 20-year home (that was almost perfect for our event) and find and move into new venues. We put a lot of thought into planning and promoting every event - but we don't get dress rehearsals. We can't set everything up and run a test-run. We can't predict how many people will turn out and/or whether or not a new venue will succeed. Once we get re-established in a new home, we will learn and adapt and make everything as good as we can again. What we can do is offer a guaranteed first place payout, and make sure that everyone gets paid, as promised. If anyone thinks that organizing and executing an event of this magnitude is easy and/or does not involve staggering costs - both obvious and hidden, then please, by all means - start another one. The west coast would be a great place to start.

I do not wish to get into a long messaging battle on here - mostly because I know they never turn out well for either side, nor do I have the time right now. My father is old school, he doesn't read forums or use social media sites. But he listens, and he talks to anyone and everyone. I feel this matter could have been addressed with a phone call or a private message (as one other prominent player chose to do) ... if you, Darren, or anyone else wishes to discuss thoughts about the pro event, or any other aspect of the expo, feel free to call him - the number is widely available on our website. He answers each and every call himself. You can reach him at (609)652-6116. I handle emails and any type of online correspondence - and you can send those to info@superbilliardsexpo.com. Starting discussions online with someone who is never online doesn't seem like much of a fair battle to me, or even something that would qualify as a "discussion" ... If you want answers or meaningful discourse or just want to make your feelings known, why not go straight to the source?

Thanks again to everyone for being a part of the Super Billiards Expo!

Well put; for the most part.

However, sometimes public discourse encourages more input/debate resulting in positive change.

There seems to be a disturbing change in the attitudes of some organizations such as yours toward the professional tournament component of your event. The shift seems to be more toward ever increasing amateur participation as a source of revenue and their attendance to attract vendors and sponsors. I would caution you not to be short sighted in this regard.

My wife and I attend events such as yours as fans (although I have not, as yet, gone to yours it is on our list of things pool related we want to experience). Our sole reason for going to any event is to watch professional calibre players play each other. I do not go to these events with the intention of purchasing anything from the vendors that also participate in these events as, at any moment in time, I have everything pool related that I need and more.(That said, I seem to have added a cue, 2 cue extensions, a carrying case and assorted instruction videos and knick knacks in the past year while at these events.)

When we do not go in person we watch the live stream if there is one. (I also recently bought a cue in support of one of the sponsors of a live stream to give as a gift.)

I am well aware of what goes into putting on an event like this and commend you and everyone else involved for your long history of professionalism in doing this. Darren does not need me, or anyone else to speak for him, but I think he makes some very valid points; most of which can be easily addressed with positive impact on your event. For example;

Schedule events so that the professionals who rely on playing as a primary source of income can play in as many disciplines as possible to maximize their chances to cover costs and more; players should never have to choose to forfeit out of a discipline because of scheduling.

Professional events should be run using professional rules (WPA), equipment, dress code, referees etc.

Limit the field, consider single or modified knock out to shorten the time needed to complete the draw.

Do a live stream at a reasonable PPV cost for the complete package.

It sounds like you and your Dad, are open to constructive critique and are prepared to listen and work to improve the event. I hope that is the case and I look forward to the renewed growth it will bring to your event and to pool.

 

[watchez]

Pretty easy to trace this SBE pro event decline back to what started the ball rolling. Thank the ABP.

Ding Ding - we have a winner. Too bad another free pass is given by the pool world here.

Allen Jr - what was the reason for you increasing the payouts by $6,000?

 

[Jesters]

Whats awesome to me is at least one of the players on that list b!tched to me that the $5000+Hotel TAR was putting for two guys to play was not enough money.

But jetting to Philly, paying a nickel entry to play slop 10 ball with no stream in a warehouse with $3k added makes sense. Pool is the best.

Darren is one of the players I pay attention too when he criticizes something. Pretty easy to trace this SBE pro event decline back to what started the ball rolling. Thank the ABP.

ABP was the only Players Org/Union that actually got their members a pay Cut. Hard to believe that they actually went to a promoter and said "Give us less money and we will all still be there" Allen probably thought he was getting punked.

 

[2strong4u]

Yes I'm really looking forward to this event.. unlike the weekend.. see you there be a great event

darren

Because you either make the action or sit back quietly saying you don't get action. If you guys were more proactive for yourself you wouldn't need to sit back trying to convince promoters like Hopkins to give handouts. You guys have a very short window to make it. ..where's the urgency?