John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

Robin,

Firstly, let me say that another member posted a pic with a line running from the far edge of the OB to the thick hit pocket point that is similar to the 'reverse ghost ball' visualization method that you have in your book.

I think anyone that is having trouble undercutting balls should perhaps give one of those methods a try to see if it is something that might help them & decide if they wish to implement it in an ongoing basis, or not.

You told me that you were prepared for criticism & expected it & that you would not act like others & 'attack' those that expressed criticism.

Please look at what you now seem to be doing?

Knowledge & Feel are two totally separate & distinct things. One can have all of the knowledge in the world & have 'no feel'. One can also have great feel & almost no conscious knowledge of any of the whys but know a great deal about the how to get it done.

To me, the two don't really mix or even meet one another. One is in one realm & the other is in another realm.

Now... we, as the possessor of both, can use both in varying degrees for any given shot. We may use knowledge in determining the shot we want to shoot & plan for the outcome & then basically execute the shot almost purely by feel. Two totally distinct aspects.

You & some others don't seem to like CJ's approach to the game & how he is trying to pass it on. That's fine & is certainly your right. The same can be said by others about You, Roadrunner Randy, Me, Dr. Dave, or anyone else.

I & others get & understand from where CJ comes & how he puts out what he does. Others do not. CJ himself has said that what he is offering will probably only be accepted by 37% of those playing the game.

CJ certainly does not always speak literally or about specifics. Many times he is speaking about an approach of how to &/or a mind set...or a feeling. I & others mostly get what he means, but sometimes even we need to hear him say it another way for it to click. Sometimes he is just offering food for thought in hope that we will discover something on our own & that has happened rather often & some have stated that the seed that CJ planted has helped them when they nurtured it with a bit of investigative trial & error & they have thanked him for it.

I hope you can see & understand my points. I think everyone would be better off if we can simply discuss aspects & let the readership make their own determinations, as well they should & leave personality out of the picture.

Text format is not the easiest & best means of true communication in a conversational type platform. Many times what one 'says' is taken wrongly on the receiving end.

Again, I hope you can see & understand my points.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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Separation of Knowledge and Feel

You can know all you want and still apply feel. I do everytime I play. I know lots of things that in the back of my mind during decision making.

I am aware there is a methodology that uses a less specific method of shot making. I use it myself quite often. Specifics help people dial in to where they aren't getting, once they get it and can see it feel becomes more important, Its feel that delivers shots to the right place on the ball and feel that spins the ball while doing it. Knowing how to hit the shot is a huge help.

Anyone with an aiming system of any type has to focus on specifics to understand where to deliver to, once found feel enters.

Knowledge....then feel...one does not have to dwell on knowledge but knowing it helps the feel understand where its supposed to go.

A friend of mine absolutely cannot focus on anything specific so I found a generality to help him, he figured out the rest on his own.

I think its ludicrous to think that aiming is one size fits all or feel is less for one than another. Feel is still feel. Aiming is subjective in that one type of aiming might suit one person and not another.

None of it matters as long as we enjoy playing pool and I do.

Useless arguments and drivel about how to play pool or makes shots the best is just that...useless.

What point does it prove? A persons game is the only thing that shows evidence of what he is able or not to do. When a person is confronted with another who is playing better, that could be due to a lot of things and likely experience. How ever a better player beats another he understood how he did that. Long races don't lie.
 
At a recent TAR podcast, two US Open champions expressed some interesting viewpoints about aiming. The podcast link can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KsVm9ePlk&feature=related and the comments on aiming systems goes from 24:15 - 29:15 .

BTW, John Schmidt just won the Predator World 14.1 tournament so perhaps that lends some additional credibility to his comments about aiming systems.

Pocketing 400+ balls in straight pool is not too shabby either...

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Shown below is a partial transcript provided by Lou Figueroa of what John and Corey said, leaving out the occasional comments on LD shafts and Corey’s describing how he teaches:

John Schmidt: Well, don’t get me started on aiming systems. I’ll tell you if...

Maybe they work... but nobody’s telling me the one’s that work. Because if they work, first of all you’re not factoring in swerve and deflection.
This has always been, and will remain the biggest, most important objection to many aiming systems. Backhand english will only take you so far before it will in itself require adjustments..
OK, now what if a guy comes up with a delivery system, that’s different. But, aiming’s adorable -- but you still have to deliver -- so you could aim perfect.
Not an objection against aiming systems per se, but I agree with what is implied. The number one obstacle between a mediocre player and greatness is the execution, not the aim.
If those aiming systems worked, well there would just be like four million people who played like Corey. But it’s year after year and it’s still Corey.
Corey is still a top player, as are many of the top players of the 90s etc..Could it be that these people are just more talented (have better eye/hand coordination etc) than the vast majority of players? To me this sounds more plausible than that they are using some "Nato cosmic top secret" aiming system.
So these aiming systems are overrated, they’re a way to sell videos and books and make people pontificate about their own greatness and believe me if it worked, then they’d be out there winning tournaments, but they’re not.
I'm not disputing that aiming systems can be helpful to some, but there still haven't been a great influx of aiming system champions, even though most of them have been out there for years.

What Stevie Moore doesn’t get is -- Stevie Moore -- you could put a bag over his head and he’d run out. He’s a great player. So he’s playing great in spite of his aiming system, not because of it. I mean, think about it: he’s already a great player. He could aim at the wall and he’s still going to make the ball. And it’s a way to give him comfort and confidence. He’s kind of like tricked himself into thinking ‘this aiming system works.’
It is true that he was a great player before learning CTE. Wether it helped him or not would have to be decided by either taking his word for it, or analysing his results in tournaments etc before and after...

(John sets up to demonstrate a shot.) I just can’t see how I’m going to use english here and I’m going to aim bottom right english. So I’m aiming out here -- it’s going to squirt. Well, what aiming system is going to work for that?! It’s only going to work with center ball. And you know, all these guys with their aiming systems can get like weight from me. And I don’t use an aiming system.
If you consider quarters/ghost ball etc systems then there are lots of pros using systems, but when you only consider commercial aiming systems a system, then their ranks are pretty thin...
Corey Duel: Yeah the one that he’s talking about I haven’t been able to comprehend it yet. It’s something about pivoting the back foot and... I don’t know.
At this point it is obvious that Corey doesn't know anything about CTE. Still, I wish JS would have let him talk. He's such an intelligent, creative player that I'm sure he would have had some good insights.
John Schmidt: My piece of advice, if anybody cares to the viewers at home: forget all the aiming systems. Just like when you throw a baseball to first, you just do it. Right? There’s no aiming, you do it, you feel it. It’s same with pool. You get a mental picture and you do it. Aiming systems are the most ridiculous, overrated thing...The pros scoff at that stuff, they’re like, ‘aiming systems, really?!’...
It would be interesting to know how the pros REALLY feel about aiming systems. As I don't personally know any of the top pros I'm going to take JS word for it.

If they would quit spending so much time on line and learning about aiming systems and go hit more balls they’d become better players. There’s no short cut to it. Sitting on AZ Billiards looking for aiming systems isn’t going to get it. It’s like the golf swing guys. They got a thousand videos. But the guy that goes to the driving range till his hands bleed, that’s the good golfer. You can’t watch it online and go, ‘oh, there’s got to be a system for hitting a four iron two hundred yards on the green.’ It’s the same with pool. We’ve hit a million pool balls -- that’s our system. I mean, you’re not going to get good at anything using a system.
Using an aiming system and practising is not an either/or proposition. What if you did both? Still I agree with his sentiments on the value of practise.
I could be wrong, I don’t know if I’m right. I just think aiming systems are crazy. Deflection and swerve is what makes this game so tough. If there was no such thing as that, you know you just hit whatever english, but this thing goes sideways off of your stick. That’s why the game’s so impossible.

This thread has taken on a life of it's own after the first post. I think it's worth requoting the first post, because basically John Schmidt is saying some things that make a lot of sense and it is nice to have a pros point of view on a subject.
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This thread has taken on a life of it's own after the first post. I think it's worth requoting the first post, because basically John Schmidt is saying some things that make a lot of sense and it is nice to have a pros point of view on a subject.
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People don't want the truth! People want to believe that if they read a pamphlet or watch a DVD they too can shoot like Corey! No one wants to learn by practicing and time spent at the table...that is only for old guys like me. I mean like what do the pros know that can't be taught by an amateur and who listens to the pros anyway? With just a little bit of knowledge...LMAO

With that said, thanks for reminding us! KUDOS to you SP99!
 
Thank you for Reposting

This thread has taken on a life of it's own after the first post. I think it's worth requoting the first post, because basically John Schmidt is saying some things that make a lot of sense and it is nice to have a pros point of view on a subject.
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Straightpool_99,
Thanks for reposting. Yeah a link to that Podcast appears in my book and will be accessible when its in ebook form.

I fully believe every word of the Podcast and my aiming system/methodology whatever you want to call it is based on a refined target just for the express purpose of better delivery. If you don't have a better way to find a delivery point then you really don't have much. If you understand how to address the ball whether you are using my system, cte or whatever then you have something to base your feel adjustments to. As long as you know the delivery point and I don't see how you couldn't know as long as you go through your protocol until the end. Like I said the things that should separate us are small and are nothing more than how much game you have.
 
Straightpool_99,
Thanks for reposting. Yeah a link to that Podcast appears in my book and will be accessible when its in ebook form.

I fully believe every word of the Podcast and my aiming system/methodology whatever you want to call it is based on a refined target just for the express purpose of better delivery. If you don't have a better way to find a delivery point then you really don't have much. If you understand how to address the ball whether you are using my system, cte or whatever then you have something to base your feel adjustments to. As long as you know the delivery point and I don't see how you couldn't know as long as you go through your protocol until the end. Like I said the things that should separate us are small and are nothing more than how much game you have.

I can't help but ask, what is the target and what are you delivering?
 
The Target

I can't help but ask, what is the target and what are you delivering?

The target is when you understand how much cut to put on the ball. That's the target how you hit the shot. Its up to you to deliver it.
 
People don't want the truth! People want to believe that if they read a pamphlet or watch a DVD they too can shoot like Corey! No one wants to learn by practicing and time spent at the table...that is only for old guys like me. I mean like what do the pros know that can't be taught by an amateur and who listens to the pros anyway? With just a little bit of knowledge...LMAO

With that said, thanks for reminding us! KUDOS to you SP99!

Well, it's obvious you don't, just by your post. The ONLY instructor that has ever said that is CJ, and that was just a sales gimmick. No one believes that just watching a video will make one a champion. That is, except those few, probably like yourself, that found out it's not true and then blamed the system.

As far as practicing, I agree that few today are willing to actually practice. Practice, you know, that item that all instructors stress and is on every DVD that I have seen.

All you essentially have with John and Coreys comments, are two people talking about something they know absolutely nothing about. Their attitude is "I didn't have one, so no one needs one." Very shortsighted thinking on their part. To go by their thinking and statements, all one needs is time on the table to be a champion. We all know that isn't correct.
 
If all anyone need was as you say, then please explain why you after all these years, and many, many others never reached pro status.


Probably for the same reason YOU didn't! I was unwilling to make the sacrifices it would take to become pro!

Always amazes me when people take pride in their ignorance and actually champion it.

You must really be amazed with yourself! No one is more ignorant than you!

Also, if one does not need knowledge, why are you so desperately seeking out knowledge from any old pro? Goes against what you are preaching.

I am neither a preacher nor a priest!
 
Funny you leave out the ones talking about centers and edges.

You need to pay more attention...the quotes I used were from pros who could not explain how they aimed. Those talking about centers and edges generally know how they aim...now go back to your room!
 
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You need to pay more attention...the quotes I used were from pros who could not explain how they aimed. Those talking about centers and edges generally know how they aim...now go back to your room!

So you agree center to edge is how to aim. Happy you finally opened your eyes.
"Go back to my room" I'd like to come to your pool room and play some.
 
So you agree center to edge is how to aim. Happy you finally opened your eyes.
"Go back to my room" I'd like to come to your pool room and play some.

No, I said people who use CTE or CTC can usually explain how THEY aim. However, it doesn't matter if you thought I said something else because everyone aims differently! And, that's ok...not everyone wears my size shoe but most of us get our shoes on just fine!

I play most Sundays at the Eagles in Debary...you're welcome to come anytime you like!
 
No, I said people who use CTE or CTC can usually explain how THEY aim. However, it doesn't matter if you thought I said something else because everyone aims differently! And, that's ok...not everyone wears my size shoe but most of us get our shoes on just fine!

I play most Sundays at the Eagles in Debary...you're welcome to come anytime you like!

Is it a private club? F O E ?
 
Validity in the Game of Pool

Yes, it is the FOE! However, anyone can enter as a guest of a member if the member is present.

I hope you guys get together and play. To me that is the only thing that is worth anything in the game of Pool.

We should be able to get together and instead of arguing over the bs we do on here we simply play the game and exchange some friendship, view points etc. as gentlemen. That is the power of pool!

If anyone wants to play and comes to NC I will find the time to get together for a game.
 
I play most Sundays at the Eagles in Debary...you're welcome to come anytime you like!

What's he supposed to do, drive 135-140 miles and up to 2 1/2 hours from Palm Harbor to Debary to find out it's one of those Sundays you aren't there? You might say to come anytime you like but you're not making it very easy or being hospitable.

Why don't you drive to Palm Harbor since you're retired with time on your hands? Maybe the roadrunner avatar should be replaced with a chicken. LOL
(I think the old goat is getting ready to explode)
 
Yes, it is the FOE! However, anyone can enter as a guest of a member if the member is present.

Yea i used to be a member in Pennsylvania. Most of the FOE down here are hole in the wall type of places. Ours was super nice with 3 gold crowns. How is the one up there?
 
Yea i used to be a member in Pennsylvania. Most of the FOE down here are hole in the wall type of places. Ours was super nice with 3 gold crowns. How is the one up there?

Not that good -- one 7' OS Valley. I go there because my friends go there and the drinks are cheap! Pool is mostly a social thing these days. We used to go to the VFW but, our VFW really pissed me off when I got someone to donate a like-new 9' Brunswick Medalist, and the idiots sold it for $500 rather than let the members use it. That's just one of the reasons I am done with the VFW!
I have a 8' Gandy Grenoble, but I have yet to enclose the garage and reassemble it. It will be my summer project! Right now, I am remodeling the kitchen.
I'm planning to come to Tampa next month, but I have a lot on my agenda. I need to 1st go to Hudson to pickup ceiling tiles for my kitchen, then the wife wants to go to Bern's. I also plan to play the Claw at USF...do you play golf?
 
What's he supposed to do, drive 135-140 miles and up to 2 1/2 hours from Palm Harbor to Debary to find out it's one of those Sundays you aren't there? You might say to come anytime you like but you're not making it very easy or being hospitable.

Why don't you drive to Palm Harbor since you're retired with time on your hands? Maybe the roadrunner avatar should be replaced with a chicken. LOL
(I think the old goat is getting ready to explode)

dead spider.jpg
 
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