WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Patrick Johnson said:
The familiar hammer motion definitely moves the hand toward the elbow. If the motion you're thinking of doesn't do that, then it's not the familiar hammer motion.

And like I said, that may result in a small boost of forward speed for the wrist, but accelerating the forward speed of the wrist doesn't do anything for cue speed if the forward speed of the hand is decelerating even more at the same time, which would have to be the case.

Maybe the hammer motion isn't really a hammer motion, like others are saying. If so, then the extensive descriptions of it have been confusing at best.

pj
chgo
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How can it be anything but confusing ???.. Comparing the motion made during a 'pool stroke', with hammering a nail, is an absolute joke !..I cannot understand why some people believe, that everything pool related needs to be compared to ANYTHING !....Is it any wonder NO ONE can explain it ! :rolleyes:

Pool, is not in any way similar to hitting a golf ball, a baseball, or a tennis ball !..A pool stroke, is unique to the game of pool..It does not need a label, to identify it !...You either develop it correctly, or you don't ! :o All the aiming systems, drills, or supposed 'shortcuts' in the world, cannot replace learning how to best implement a straight, level stroke, suited to your own individual body !

PS.."Over-annilyzing" or disseminating confusing information, (especially to newcomers) is NOT the best way to utilize this forum !..:(

GOD..(Grouchy Old Dick)
 
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SJDinPHX said:
How can it be anything but confusing? Comparing the motion made during a 'pool stroke', with hammering a nail, is an absolute joke!
..I cannot understand why some people believe that everything pool related needs to be compared to ANYTHING !..It is no wonder NO ONE can explain it ! :rolleyes:

Pool, is not in any way similar to hitting a golf ball, a baseball, or a tennis ball !..A pool stroke, is unique to the game of pool..It does not need a label, to identify it..You either develop it correctly, or you don't ! :o All the aiming systems, drills, or supposed 'shortcuts' in the world, cannot replace learning how to best implement a straight, level stroke, suited to YOUR individual body !

PS.."Over-annilyzing" or disseminating confusing information, (especially to newcomers) is NOT the best way to utilize this forum !..:(

GOD..(Grouchy Old Dick)
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Sir,

I can certainly agree with most of your post here.

The thing is that this is a discussion forum & it is not easy to put certain things into the proper words to convey the ideas that are the points of discussion.

So...analogies are made as a means to try to enhance the communication of the idea or to make it more easy to reference it. That is the challenge for those that wish to relay something from themselves to others. Is the 'hammer wrist action' exactly the same as hammering a nail? No. The normal angle is different & the strike direction is different, but the wrist action to which CJ is referring is similar, & especially if one thinks about hammering a nail high above one's head where the angle between the upper arm & forearm might be being extended as they are when the cue is being pushed forward. It's also similar to 'stabbing' a spear (or sword) from where the spear tip is high & then lowering it to thrust it forward.

There are commonalities or similarities in the pool strokes to other athletic movements as we are doing them all with our hands & arms. A tennis drop shot could be seen as having a similar wrist motion to which CJ is referring & perhaps a bunt in baseball.

Please note that I said pool strokes, plural. Everyone does not use a full pendulum swing to deliver the cue to the ball.

I think that is an issue here in that some seem to assume that is the only stroke & they apply aspects of discussion incorrectly to that type of cue delivery.

AZB has many levels of players. Everyone here is not a beginner nor a newcomer to the game.

It may not seem like it but I do agree with much of your post.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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Would anyone rather be in a car accident with a car that traveled for just 1/4 mile at 200 MPH than a similar weighted car that traveled 20 miles at just 5 or 10 mph?

Swing a baseball bat with a long swing & no wrist or swing it with a quick compact swing with wrist action.
 
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DTL said:
Why are you the one always defending CJ's issues?
Like I said before, unless you're actually CJ or have had personal instruction from him on this hammer issue, you likely don't know what you're talking about. If he's doing anything, it's not what you're describing.......which made me dizzy trying to follow it.
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Now I know why I always hated officers.
Especially those Ensigns straight out of the academy...and the Chiefs had to salute them.
 
DTL said:
A well disguised forward wrist flick (opposite of the hammer motion) with a little help from the fingers too can add cue speed (cue movement) to a seemingly slow forearm swing which can put a surprising amount of action on the CB.
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And from English!: " Is the 'hammer wrist action' exactly the same as hammering a nail? No. The normal angle is different & the strike direction is different, but the wrist action to which CJ is referring is similar, & especially if one thinks about hammering a nail high above one's head where the angle between the upper arm & forearm might be being extended as they are when the cue is being pushed forward. It's also similar to 'stabbing' a spear (or sword) from where the spear tip is high & then lowering it to thrust it forward."


This is what I thought the point of the wrist and hammer analogy was. A hammering motion involves a relaxation at the top of the swing and acceleration of the hammer into the nail.

In the case of a pool cue, the direction of the motion is opposite that of a hammer swing (the wrist bends forward and perhaps up somewhat in the forward swing whereas the hammer swing is top to bottom), However, I thought that the point being made was the relaxation as the pool cue transitioned from going backward to forward followed by loosely/lightly flicking the wrist forward and up created a smoother, more powerful, and more accurate stroke. I have heard the forward stroke described as being similar to throwing a javelin without actually letting go of the cue. If your wrist isn't relaxed when hammering, you won't get much power or accuracy as you are guiding the hammer. The same is true of the pool stroke, although the tighter wrist and grip also invoke the shoulder muscles and elbow drop.

At any rate, that is what I envision in the discussion of the role of the wrist and hammer in developing a better stroke.
 
Dr_CollieCue said:
And from English!: " Is the 'hammer wrist action' exactly the same as hammering a nail? No. The normal angle is different & the strike direction is different, but the wrist action to which CJ is referring is similar, & especially if one thinks about hammering a nail high above one's head where the angle between the upper arm & forearm might be being extended as they are when the cue is being pushed forward. It's also similar to 'stabbing' a spear (or sword) from where the spear tip is high & then lowering it to thrust it forward."


This is what I thought the point of the wrist and hammer analogy was. A hammering motion involves a relaxation at the top of the swing and acceleration of the hammer into the nail.

In the case of a pool cue, the direction of the motion is opposite that of a hammer swing (the wrist bends forward and perhaps up somewhat in the forward swing whereas the hammer swing is top to bottom), However, I thought that the point being made was the relaxation as the pool cue transitioned from going backward to forward followed by loosely/lightly flicking the wrist forward and up created a smoother, more powerful, and more accurate stroke. I have heard the forward stroke described as being similar to throwing a javelin without actually letting go of the cue. If your wrist isn't relaxed when hammering, you won't get much power or accuracy as you are guiding the hammer. The same is true of the pool stroke, although the tighter wrist and grip also invoke the shoulder muscles and elbow drop.

At any rate, that is what I envision in the discussion of the role of the wrist and hammer in developing a better stroke.
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As I've said more than just a few times now in multiple threads, there is not just one pool stroke or delivery method of the cue to the ball. Also how one connects to the cue, which there is also more than just one way, comes into play.

Building blocks stand one upon another. If one is weak the whole structure may not stand.

There is more than one way to play this game well. One pulling or swinging the cue into the ball with the angle of the upper & lower arm contracting is different than one pushing the cue into the ball with the angle between the upper & lower arm extending.

There is more than one way to develop what you referred to as 'a better stroke'. Especially when there are very different good strokes.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sir,

I can certainly agree with most of your post here.

The thing is that this is a discussion forum & it is not easy to put certain things into the proper words to convey the ideas that are the points of discussion.

So...analogies are made as a means to try to enhance the communication of the idea or to make it more easy to reference it. That is the challenge for those that wish to relay something from themselves to others. Is the 'hammer wrist action' exactly the same as hammering a nail? No. The normal angle is different & the strike direction is different, but the wrist action to which CJ is referring is similar, & especially if one thinks about hammering a nail high above one's head where the angle between the upper arm & forearm might be being extended as they are when the cue is being pushed forward. It's also similar to 'stabbing' a spear (or sword) from where the spear tip is high & then lowering it to thrust it forward.

There are commonalities or similarities in the pool strokes to other athletic movements as we are doing them all with our hands & arms. <--Obviously, but that is where ANY 'similarity' ends ! A tennis drop shot could be seen as having a similar wrist motion to which CJ is referring & perhaps a bunt in baseball. <--Not to me.. Except for applying 'spin', this has no correlation to stroking a round cue ball, into another round ball, not to even mention playing position !...I think it just adds to the confusion !

Please note that I said pool strokes, plural. Everyone does not use a full pendulum swing to deliver the cue to the ball.

I think that is an issue here in that some seem to assume that is the only stroke & they apply aspects of discussion incorrectly to that type of cue delivery.

AZB has many levels of players. Everyone here is not a beginner nor a newcomer to the game.

It may not seem like it but I do agree with much of your post.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
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Rick, I must ask, which part of my post did you agree with ? :D..Granted, everyone here is not a beginner..However, I do believe almost everyone is intelligent enough to understand a well phrased, well explained 'analogy' !

You are definitely one of the sharper knives in the drawer, and I do enjoy our exchanges..I just think we are being 'analogied' to death here..It takes someone with your intelligence, to even TRY to explain it ! ;)
 
DTL said:
You now know why you always hated officers..........but you're not gonna tell us why?
What's your point, Chief? Perhaps you always thought you were smarter than they were. Yet, you're not smart enough to know when you're getting bamboozled on here, lol.
You see that Surface Warfare pin at the bottom of my page? That's an Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist pin. I did 14 years as an enlisted sailor, only 10 as an officer.
Thank you for your service.
DTL
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Since you were a Mustang, I take it all back.
Cheers.
Icon Cheers.gif
 
OK guys..we are drifting off point here !..Can we resolve the "Wrist, catalyst, analogy" issue, before moving into attack mode ;)
 
DTL said:
I vote there's nothing really to it.

Everybody has their own little wrist movement depending on how they hold the cue. Thinking that someone can say that theirs is superior over another is absurd.

And all this is coming from someone that, by all video evidence, has virtually no wrist action at all. Maybe some subtle things going on with his fingers I could believe.

DTL
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And to whom are you referring to here ? :confused:
 
DTL said:
I think you're describing a Busty/Efren-like motion were the very relaxed wrist is naturally cocked by centripetal force on the backstroke and then allowed to uncock the same way coming through on the forward stroke. If so, at the peak of the backstroke the wrist is at the hammer position......but not at contact as has been suggested one do by the OP.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/5866560
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Yes, thanks, I realized that the OP was describing something different. 136 pages and who knows how many more to come. At least we now know there are a number of different ways to look at it. :)
 
SJDinPHX said:
Rick, I must ask, which part of my post did you agree with ? :D..Granted, everyone here is not a beginner..However, I do believe almost everyone is intelligent enough to understand a well phrased, well explained 'analogy' !

You are definitely one of the sharper knives in the drawer, and I do enjoy our exchanges..I just think we are being 'analogied' to death here..It takes someone with your intelligence, to even TRY to explain it ! ;)
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"You either develop it correctly, or you don't ! All the aiming systems, drills, or supposed 'shortcuts' in the world, cannot replace learning how to best implement a straight, level stroke, suited to your own individual body !"

Basically, the above is the part of your post that I agreed with the most.

I can also agree with you that some of us can be annoyed with what seems like endless analogies but the problem is that so many seem to have trouble understanding many things with only words as a means of communication or they are pretending to not understand.

When that happens, resorting to an analogy seems to be the best recourse as more words might only contribute further to the not understanding of those individuals or add fuel to ones trying to start a fire.

Human beings are very visual & especially the male gender, so a visual picture can often be of assistance when trying to explain something to one that is having trouble understanding.

You know that old saying? A picture is worth a thousands words. Well, sometimes creating an image in one's mind can be just as effective.

I've asked before, I wonder how many can actually feel their stroke in their arm from their shoulder to their fingers as they sit there at their keyboards.

Do you know what I mean by that & can you feel it in your arm?

I'd hazard a guess that you are one that can.

All the Best 2 You & Yours, Sir,
Rick
 
Dr_CollieCue said:
Yes, thanks, I realized that the OP was describing something different. 136 pages and who knows how many more to come. At least we now know there are a number of different ways to look at it. :)
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Dr..from one of my earlier posts....> "Pool, is not in any way similar to hitting a golf ball, a baseball, or a tennis ball !..A pool stroke, is unique to the game of pool..It does not need a label, to identify it !...You either develop it correctly, or you don't"!
In CJ's defense, he was just trying to justify all his claims, and 'analogies'!..I don't think he meant to be misleading !..He just backed himself into too many corners ! ;)

PS..I agree, this thread has gone on way too long ! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:
 
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