WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
Dr..from one of my earlier posts....> "Pool, is not in any way similar to hitting a golf ball, a baseball, or a tennis ball !..A pool stroke, is unique to the game of pool..It does not need a label, to identify it !...You either develop it correctly, or you don't"!
In CJ's defense, he was just trying to justify all his claims, and 'analogies'!..I don't think he meant to be misleading !..He just backed himself into too many corners !
PS..I agree, this thread has gone on way too long ! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:
SJD,
I recall that comment and agree, although I think small parts of the pool stroke have similarities or analogies to other activities. For example, the backstroke in pool and golf must both be smooth, complete, and contain some sort of unhurried and smooth transition to the forward stroke even though the objective in pool is to generate a straight and level forward stroke whereas the objective in golf is to let the lower body work properly before the club is returned to the ball.
I didn't mean to say anything about CJ in my post (which is why I referenced the OP rather than CJ by name) because I like his posts, I think about them to determine whether they hold anything I can use for improving my game, and I appreciate that he takes the time to post and try to help others regardless of who agrees with him. I look at all posts as an opportunity to learn something and, if not, to forget them rather than get into a disagreement with the poster. Personally, I am here to enjoy myself and not to argue with others.
Not meaning to help move this thread to page 137 ...... :grin-square:
Nothing wrong with your attitude, Dr. !..Arguing is not fun, but debating can be very enlightening !..CJ offers his questionable opinions, on ALL things ! (pool related, or not)..It is HIS attitude that I wish he would improve !..Less bragging and self promotion, and commercialism would be a start !...But we both know that is not going to happen !.. He is so busy blowing his own horn, that if one of his fan's wanted to pay him a compliment, they would not be able to get in a word, edgewise !
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I agree with you.
Each individual should always make their own determinations once they have enough information to make an informed decision.
That's been in my signature line for nearly the whole time that I've been a member here.
Get all the information you can. 'Test drive' the product if possible & make your own determinations.
Like CJ has said, much of what he is offering up may only be for about 37% of us playing the game. He's not trying to force anything on anyone.
One should just try what he's offered up for free & if it's beneficial, fine, if not, that's fine too. One can use it, shelve it for possible future use, or discard it as not for them.
Keep making your own decisions as each individual should do.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
I am golfing this morning!
Ok, since you brought up golf...let's compare the pool stroke to a golf swing. Regardless of what some may think, they are quite similar in that you must complete a series of physical motions and repeat that series of motions to be consistent!
The only time I am "consciously" using (cocking) my wrists is when I break! I compare this to driving in golf. Hank Haney would tell you, the stroke you use to drive the ball is indeed different than the stroke you use to putt the ball. I Think you would agree?
For most pool shots I use a "putter" stroke. Otherwise, just as in golf, it is a pendulum stroke with NO wrists. Wrists add a variable that is difficult to measure, so therefore it is left out for most shots. That is not to say, my wrists will not "release" when I extend my follow-through. For most shots I believe that is what we see when watching the pros.
Of course, there is the rare occasion when you may want to consciously use "wrist cock" in a pool stroke for a shot other than the break. As in golf, this is when a "shank" can easily occur. IMHO, using wrist cock only complicates the stroke by adding another variable that is difficult to measure. However, I am aware that some people have used it successfully. Just as in golf, not everyone will execute the golf swing - or pool stroke - exactly the same why. The only important element here is your ability to repeat your stroke consistently!
Yes, this is an advanced technique. The hands are the key to your connection because that's what we "touch" and influence The Game with.
Hank Haney, the legendary golf instructor (swing coach for Tiger Woods 6 years) was the first one to point out to me how the wrists work up and down in the golf swing and then I realized how I was doing it in my pool stroke.
To me this is a major key to producing both power and accuracy in my own, personal game. I hope you can at least expore how it's working in your own game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Ok, since you brought up golf...let's compare the pool stroke to a golf swing. Regardless of what some may think, they are quite similar in that you must complete a series of physical motions and repeat that series of motions to be consistent!
The only time I am "consciously" using (cocking) my wrists is when I break! I compare this to driving in golf. Hank Haney would tell you, the stroke you use to drive the ball is indeed different than the stroke you use to putt the ball. I Think you would agree?
For most pool shots I use a "putter" stroke. Otherwise, just as in golf, it is a pendulum stroke with NO wrists. Wrists add a variable that is difficult to measure, so therefore it is left out for most shots. That is not to say, my wrists will not "release" when I extend my follow-through. For most shots I believe that is what we see when watching the pros.
Of course, there is the rare occasion when you may want to consciously use "wrist cock" in a pool stroke for a shot other than the break. As in golf, this is when a "shank" can easily occur. IMHO, using wrist cock only complicates the stroke by adding another variable that is difficult to measure. However, I am aware that some people have used it successfully. Just as in golf, not everyone will execute the golf swing - or pool stroke - exactly the same why. The only important element here is your ability to repeat your stroke consistently!
Nothing wrong with your attitude, Dr. !..Arguing is not fun, but debating can be very enlightening !..CJ offers his questionable opinions, on ALL things ! (pool related, or not)..It is HIS attitude that I wish he would improve !..Less bragging and self promotion, and commercialism would be a start !...But we both know that is not going to happen !.. He is so busy blowing his own horn, that if one of his fan's wanted to pay him a compliment, they would not be able to get in a word, edgewise !
I would like to pay CJ a compliment! Thank you CJ for all you do, I truly appreciate your input! There...that was easy!
Dr..from one of my earlier posts....> "Pool, is not in any way similar to hitting a golf ball, a baseball, or a tennis ball !..A pool stroke, is unique to the game of pool..It does not need a label, to identify it !...You either develop it correctly, or you don't"!
In CJ's defense, he was just trying to justify all his claims, and 'analogies'!..I don't think he meant to be misleading !..He just backed himself into too many corners !
PS..I agree, this thread has gone on way too long ! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:
Of course they aren't the same, but they share the same ways that the human body can and does move most efficiently. So, I feel analogies may be the best way to get across some of the subtle and easily missed aspects of a "proper" pool stroke, especially to beginners who are trying to "develop their stroke correctly".
Personally, I find that playing the fiddle and casting a fly rod (sorry, I don't golf or play tennis) have many similarities to how I stroke the ball. Odd sounding? Do you do either activity? If you did, you would see my point.
In fact, my forward pool stroke is almost identical to my backcast when using a fly rod in the classic manner. The movement employs no shoulder, only elbow and a bit of wrist near the finish. It's just a pendulum swing turned up about 90º. Smooth acceleration is critical to a proper fly cast as well, since you are trying to move a very flexible tapered stick in a way that allows the tip to move in a straight line instead of the arc it would naturally follow if it was rigid, and timing is crucial to achieving this motion. Any rushing or quitting on the stroke will cause the tip to either dip (in the case of rushing) or rise (in the case of quitting), and the cast will be ruined with the line likely tying itself into an overhand knot, or falling in a pile on the water.
If I wanted to teach a good pool player to cast a fly rod, I'd tell him to keep him elbow down and pinned to his side, hold the rod at the 10 o'clock position and just execute a pool stroke with the rod and stop at the 2 o'clock position. I'll bet he'd have a decent fly cast from the get-go just doing that.
Maybe someday SVB will let me take him fly fishing and I can test my theory.
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Nothing wrong with your attitude, Dr. !..Arguing is not fun, but debating can be very enlightening !..CJ offers his questionable opinions, on ALL things ! (pool related, or not)..It is HIS attitude that I wish he would improve !..Less bragging and self promotion, and commercialism would be a start !...But we both know that is not going to happen !.. He is so busy blowing his own horn, that if one of his fan's wanted to pay him a compliment, they would not be able to get in a word, edgewise !
CJ didn't come on here with that attitude. I had no idea who this "CJSSECRETS" character was, but he seemed to know his stuff. It was only after many posts that I figured out that this was CJ Wiley. That's about the time folks began hammering away at him. You get a man on the defensive and he can either duck and run or he's gonna stand and fight the best he can. CJ doesn't strike me as a guy to run away with his tail tucked between his legs.
See, you don't know any more about martial arts than you do about pool.
The so-called "one inch punch" relies on power that comes from the feet to the knuckles is a tightly controlled and timed manner. The wrist is a tiny player in the punch. No different from Joe Louis throwing his devastating short hooks 80 years ago, or Tyson in the modern era (only in the case of Louis and Tyson we actually get to see a man collapse in a heap after getting hit with a punch that seemed to come from just inches away).
Here's the difference. A fighter can transfer a lot of his mass into that punch because the dwell time is remarkable longer. The impulse from a moving cue lasts about a thousandth of a second and then the ball is gone... way before it can "feel" the effect of the player's hand, let alone his entire body.
You need to increase the velocity of the cue before impact. Adding any sort of motion at the instant before contact will not increase the velocity of the cue in any measurable way, so it will not add any power to the hit. You need time to do that. That's what acceleration is by definition - the rate of increase in velocity over time.
You can accelerate on object with minimal force if you have enough time. In a pool stroke you are limited in how much time you can apply a force because your stroke is only just so long. You need distance to make that increase in velocity happen without applying a sudden and violent force, so long strokes tend to be more smooth and fluid. That's what the forward flick of the wrist provides that the hammer stroke cannot. Distance. The hammer stroke does not move the cue in a forward direction at all, so it absolutely cannot increase its velocity.
It seems you either did not read, or if so, it seems you did not take into consideration all that was said prior to me posting that slight analogy, where I said 'SORT OF LIKE' & not EXACTLY LIKE. Obviously acceleration is a function of time.
The point was the short distance traveled by the hand like the tip for the hit. I prefaced it with keeping the forearm still & making the motion vs allowing the forearm to move as it naturally 'wants' to do when making the motion.
The bottom of the forearm at the wrist along with the TOP of hand 'snaps' forward & the cue juts or thrusts forward with the cue & tip moving relatively straight forward compared to the wrist going from ulnar to radial where the cue & tip wants to go up toward the sky.
I must have missed it, but I do not recall CJ saying that it added power to a pendulum swing or even any particular pool stroke. I believe he said it can be a source of power & a means of keeping the cue on track.
But... I could be wrong.
The cue does not just lay in CJ's fingers like that of a cradle grip for a pendulum stroke & CJ does not use a pendulum swing. CJ plays like an athlete that controls the implement of the sport, like a tennis racket, or golf club.
It's about quick acceleration over a short distance. Hence the later analogy of being hit by a car traveling only a quarter mile & reaching a speed of 200 MPH vs one that has traveled for 30 miles or more but is still only moving at 5 or 10 mph.
Just last week a 20 year old was doing a line drill & was using too much stroke to stay in shape for the next shot. I showed him how little & how much I could spin & move the ball with control with a stroke so small that he could barely see the tip move. There was no need for any 'full length' cue motion. naturally he was somewhat amazed & started asking a bunch of questions.
That was a balancing act of cue speed applied properly to control momentum.
What CJ is trying to relay is sort of like a horse race where there is a walk up start. The horses are just walking up to the the line & when they reach the line they bolt into the acceleration of a run.
However, you are correct about one thing. I know almost nothing about martial arts... nor playing the violin , nor fly casting. I don't know that much about 'jokeying' a horse or racing dragsters either.
But...I have played some football, baseball, golf, & a lot of tennis. I was offered a position teaching tennis but turned it down in my early 20s. Although I have coached football, baseball, basketball & golf at ages from 4 yrs. old to young adults. Also I've been playing pool rather well for the last 47+ years since I was 13. Not that any of that matters or means anything to you. You just don't know what you don't know.
What happened to you putting me on ignore & your earlier 'promise' to never post in a thread that I posted in? :wink:
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
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Well, I cheated... just like you "peeking" at posters you put on ignore and later came back to haunt them. Lol
I don't recall putting you on ignore, but I do ignore 99 and 44/100ths of your pure bullshit. 9686 extremely longwinded and nonsensical posts (240 just in this thread) in three years, with an entire year of that time spent in "time out"? You need an effen psychiatrist.
The only reason why I noticed your post was because DTL quoted it in a response to you, and I DO read almost everything Duke has to say about the game.
Well, I cheated... just like you "peeking" at posters you put on ignore and later came back to haunt them. Lol
I don't recall putting you on ignore, but I do ignore 99 and 44/100ths of your pure bullshit. 9686 extremely longwinded and nonsensical posts (240 just in this thread) in three years, with an entire year of that time spent in "time out"? You need an effen psychiatrist.
The only reason why I noticed your post was because DTL quoted it in a response to you, and I DO read almost everything Duke has to say about the game.
Great. Then it was just an accidental encounter.
I'm sorry you bumped into me to tell me how little I know about martial arts just because of a 'sort of like' distance speed analogy.
If you hadn't, I'd have one or two less posts.
This is a discussion forum & not a paint your graffiti here on the one way street & run off without getting caught site like some seem to want it to be.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
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Maybe. But just like aiming is only a small part of the game of pool, casting is only a part of fly fishing. Heck, you don't even need to be a good caster if you are a good stalker. Most trout are caught within 30' of you. There's mostly a lot of knowledge that goes into being great at fly fishing, and a lot of frustration when the fish aren't obeying the rules. Can't be sure if Efren would have the patience for an activity where large portions of it are simply out of human control.
Besides, most world class fly fisherman return almost all their catch to the water. Efren is known to eat a fish or two on occasion. I think he would be mortified at the idea of catch-and-release fishing.
I love this thread. I came here to learn a bit about the wrist and I've learned the stroke to play a fiddle, how to play tennis, how to golf, how to fly fish, and now I'm learning Kung Fu and the one deadly punch stroke.
DAMN...I'm moving right along. Hopefully, I'll get through all the BS that everybody keeps regurgitating and get to some hidden message soon.
While we are all waiting for that revelation to happen, enjoy the following link in dedication to what this thread has become.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzPcMzy4WI8
DAMN...I'm moving right along. Hopefully, I'll get through all the BS that everybody keeps regurgitating and get to some hidden message soon.
While we are all waiting for that revelation to happen, enjoy the following link in dedication to what this thread has become.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzPcMzy4WI8
Here is part of a post in the Genuine Concern for AZB thread by another member.
The main problem, imo, is people don't respect others opinions, and, are arrogant. I Read something in the Drills thread they said something like "when you're not better in 10 years you'll know why." (Or something of the like). That statement is somewhat inflammatory and is likely to garner a return inflammoatory statement and so on and so on. It's arrogant to assume that our opinion is correct and disrespectful to others to present it as fact.
Let's have our opinion, share it so we can all learn from one another, and leave the idea that "my way" is the ONLY right way. It can be right for you, doesn't make it right for everyone though.
I don't care if a person has 100 years of doing it their way and it worked so it's now fact. I'll bet my bottom dollar that someone, somewhere, has done it completely different and it also worked. The amount of arrogance in some posts is staggering. Hell, this post notwithstanding.
The main problem, imo, is people don't respect others opinions, and, are arrogant. I Read something in the Drills thread they said something like "when you're not better in 10 years you'll know why." (Or something of the like). That statement is somewhat inflammatory and is likely to garner a return inflammoatory statement and so on and so on. It's arrogant to assume that our opinion is correct and disrespectful to others to present it as fact.
Let's have our opinion, share it so we can all learn from one another, and leave the idea that "my way" is the ONLY right way. It can be right for you, doesn't make it right for everyone though.
I don't care if a person has 100 years of doing it their way and it worked so it's now fact. I'll bet my bottom dollar that someone, somewhere, has done it completely different and it also worked. The amount of arrogance in some posts is staggering. Hell, this post notwithstanding.
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You talk about having the right to opinions, yet, here you are, once again trolling me because of my opinion. Guess you figured enough people didn't read your troll in the other thread, so you had to do it here to. All in the hopes of another flame war. What a hypocrite you are! I don't need a shadow following me around, Take a hike, institigator.
Thanks for that, HE. Nice to see some real athleticism.