Another rules question...sorry

[bdorman]

Sorry, but this came up in a game last night and we kind of made up an answer that seemed to make sense.

Situation is simple: The breaker scratches on the break. If he gets back to the table, is he on one foul?

Last night I got BIH after the breaker scratched, but it was a crazy layout and I played a lock-up safe on the three ball. He misses the kick and I said "you're on two." Of course, he says "No, that was my first foul."

After reminding him of his scratch on the break, we agreed he was indeed on two...but we weren't really sure of the ruling.

Was he on one foul or two?

 

[tjshaw02]

Sorry, but this came up in a game last night and we kind of made up an answer that seemed to make sense.

Situation is simple: The breaker scratches on the break. If he gets back to the table, is he on one foul?

Last night I got BIH after the breaker scratched, but it was a crazy layout and I played a lock-up safe on the three ball. He misses the kick and I said "you're on two." Of course, he says "No, that was my first foul."

After reminding him of his scratch on the break, we agreed he was indeed on two...but we weren't really sure of the ruling.

Was he on one foul or two?

not 100% sure, but I would say he is on 2 fouls. 2 consecutive attempts with fouls...

 

[pt109]

Two fouls in a row in the same game puts you on two fouls.

..but what if he broke legally and then PUSHED?
( a push was considered the first foul in the old roll out rules )

 

[12squared]

...The breaker scratches on the break. If he gets back to the table, is he on one foul?

Yes, he's on two fouls.

..but what if he broke legally and then PUSHED?
( a push was considered the first foul in the old roll out rules )

If he pushes and you select to shoot, no foul. It is a legal shot to push these days and shooting was your choice.

From WPA rules:
2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.

dave

 

[pt109]

Yes, he's on two fouls.



If he pushes and you select to shoot, no foul. It is a legal shot to push these days and shooting was your choice.

From WPA rules:
2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.

dave

Thanx, David....I kept forgetting to ask that one.
However, I disagree with it.
We play our money games with it being the first foul.

In the old roll out rules, it's one of the reasons you had to push carefully...two fouls by same player
...if you could snooker him off his push, he had to go for the hit.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Three Fouls. It shouldn't matter how he got them.

Whether it was thru good Safeties or he caused them himself.

 

[Buckzapper]

The question is, when he scratched on the break, did he hit the rack with the cue ball? If he scratched without hitting the rack, he loses his turn, but I don't believe he's on 1. The game begins when the rack is broken.

 

[pt109]

The question is, when he scratched on the break, did he hit the rack with the cue ball? If he scratched without hitting the rack, he loses his turn, but I don't believe he's on 1. The game begins when the rack is broken.

I never went for that one....the rule was actually the game started when the one-ball
was hit.
When I started running some 9-ball tournaments (early90s)....
...I made the rule that the game starts when the cue-ball crosses the line.

 

[tatcat2000]

The question is, when he scratched on the break, did he hit the rack with the cue ball? If he scratched without hitting the rack, he loses his turn, but I don't believe he's on 1. The game begins when the rack is broken.

Under both WSR and CSI rules, the game begins when the cue tip contacts the cue ball during any forward stroke on the break.

Assuming we are talking about 9-Ball, WSR 2.3(a) and 8.2 apply. In any game, CSI Rule 1-7-1 applies.

Buddy

 

[Mrdodd72]

Under both WSR and CSI rules, the game begins when the cue tip contacts the cue ball during any forward stroke on the break.

Assuming we are talking about 9-Ball, WSR 2.3(a) and 8.2 apply. In any game, CSI Rule 1-7-1 applies.

Buddy

Glad you addressed this. I get this argument, even within the BCA league, that "the game doesn't begin till the cue ball hits the rack." They completely miss the rack, scratch, and still claim they get to attempt another break. They look at me like I grew a third eye when I call foul.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Glad you addressed this. I get this argument, even within the BCA league, that "the game doesn't begin till the cue ball hits the rack." They completely miss the rack, scratch, and still claim they get to attempt another break. They look at me like I grew a third eye when I call foul.

Maybe there should be a loss-of-game foul for total rules ignorance.

 

[WillyCornbread]

They completely miss the rack, scratch, and still claim they get to attempt another break. They look at me like I grew a third eye when I call foul.

This is a thing? That's crazy, I don't think I've ever seen someone completely whiff on the rack entirely.

 

[pt109]

This is a thing? That's crazy, I don't think I've ever seen someone completely whiff on the rack entirely.

Jimmy Wetch, a fine player, felt he was subject to miss the head ball
once a match in a race to 11....his break stroke was complicated.

 

[GideonF]

This is a thing? That's crazy, I don't think I've ever seen someone completely whiff on the rack entirely.

You've never seen someone miscue on a break shot and then miss the rack? You must be playing with better players than I do.

Gideon<----pretty sure I've done it

 

[fastone371]

This is a thing? That's crazy, I don't think I've ever seen someone completely whiff on the rack entirely.

My team mate on my 8 ball league has not only whiffed on the break but has done so 2 times a night, on both of his break opportunities for the night, on at least a couple occasions. He uses a combination of a lot of top spin and alcohol consumption on his breaks.He usually mis-cues and sends the QB to the side rail, sometimes tapping the rack and knocking 1 or 2 balls a little loose, other times missing the rack entirely. You have absolutely no idea how hard it is not to laugh when he can see you as the profanities spew from his cake hole. He thinks he gets a better break by driving the QB back through the rack area.............................as the QB parks itself on the foot rail.

 

[bdorman]

The question is, when he scratched on the break, did he hit the rack with the cue ball? If he scratched without hitting the rack, he loses his turn, but I don't believe he's on 1. The game begins when the rack is broken.

Just to clarify the situation, it was actually quite a good break. He made the wing ball, scattered the rack nicely (except the 3-8 tie-up)...but the CB got kicked into the side pocket.

It seemed to us that he'd be on two fouls (scratch on the break and the missed kick), but we weren't certain about the rules. We're not league or tournament players so we're not exactly Rule Mavens.

Thanks.

 

[tatcat2000]

Just to clarify the situation, it was actually quite a good break. He made the wing ball, scattered the rack nicely (except the 3-8 tie-up)...but the CB got kicked into the side pocket.

It seemed to us that he'd be on two fouls (scratch on the break and the missed kick), but we weren't certain about the rules. We're not league or tournament players so we're not exactly Rule Mavens.

Thanks.

Straight answer to exact OP situation under WSR and CSI: on two. Neither rule set has any provision for excepting the break shot from the three-foul sequence in rotation games.

Buddy