Inside VS Outside

[DAVE_M]

Yes, when I'm using the same type shot time after time after time and they're using "whatever the table tells them"......they will certainly become unraveled after 8-10 hours.

I've seen this happen many, many times.

Using different spins, speeds and judgments (as a result) is very difficult to do, yet this is how the game is typically played.

No wonder players get to a certain level and can't progress, the type of game they are attempting is simply too difficult. Pool is a challenging game, however, when you master one type of shot and STICK TO IT, the game opens up and gets easier.

This "Master Shot" gets incredibly fine-tuned because you use it primarily and can depend on it under any circumstances or pressure situations.

Adding silly names, like "Master Shot", is just another marketing ploy.

I've always had the opposite experience - the longer i play, the more tuned in i become. Maybe the projecting only works for those that buy into your fluff.

I agree. The longer I'm playing, the more tuned in I become. The longest I've played, was around 16 hours of non-stop one pocket.

I doubt if you've ever played a top player for 20+ hours.

What does that have to do with anything? Someone disagrees with you and you feel you need to puff up your chest. This is a conversation with differing opinions, not a competition.

You didn't say that above, did you? I mean, it's all good and expected if you want to change your story, though. Since most don't play top players for 20+ hours, did you even have a point?

I haven't played top players for that long. I've played some decent players for 8-10 hours, though - as strong or stronger than myself. I do alright.

If you're going to pretend you aren't absolutely full of it, try to not change up the matter on your very first reply. Blah blah blah teacher.

8-10 hours of any play is a long time. CJ just wants to beat his chest.

Blah blah blah blah. You said 8-10 hours and I've done that enough to know my game doesn't fall off like you claim. Got any of your "toi students" in the Pacific northwest? We can test your little "theory."

What would be humbling is you having to back up these ridiculous claims.

CJ won't back up any of his claims, because he sees them as FACT.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have not problem doing this once a week, it would get back in "dead stroke".

Blah blah blah blah. You said 8-10 hours and I've done that enough to know my game doesn't fall off like you claim. Got any of your "toi students" in the Pacific northwest? We can test your little "theory."

What would be humbling is you having to back up these ridiculous claims.

I'll play anyone in the United State 20 straight hours and we'll see who backs up their claims.
I have not problem doing this once a week, it would get back in "dead stroke". :thumbup:

 

[CJ Wiley]

roads lead to the "Land of TOI"

From the CB position, I'd bank the 3/5 with a little outside and the 10/4 with a little inside.

If this was meant to turn into a TOI discussion, I'm done.
If this was meant to be an outside vs inside discussion relating to bank shots, I'll stay.

All roads lead to the "Land of TOI"......it's like the "Land of AZ" but it's in Texas, not Arizona (or Kansas LoL)

 

[DAVE_M]

All roads lead to the "Land of TOI"......it's like the "Land of AZ" but it's in Texas, not Arizona (or Kansas LoL)

Most people would consider this trolling.

I would love to enjoy a conversation that doesn't involve cartoons and your childish antics.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Some people favor inside, some favor outside, some use both. From what I've noticed from playing people for years and years and watching on TV and stream, it seems that the majority of people are sort of "scared" of inside for some reason and are much more comfortable using outside.

I have been watching a lot of the streams lately and the announcers seem like they are "shocked" when somebody hits a ball good and uses inside...like it is something SPECIAL. They almost never say anything of the sort when people use outside.

Why is that?

I prefer to use inside if I can and have the choice, but I switch up depending upon the shot and if I have to change the angle to get back inside.

I haven't tried EVERY shot on the table, but I think there are some shots that you can make with inside that would be EXTREMELY hard or impossible with outside. I don't think there is a shot on the table that you can't make with inside, if the shot can even be made.

Some examples would be shots like below or any shot that is similar.

Would you shoot any of the shots below using outside? I'm talking to MAKE A BALL, not playing a safe or a bank. I can make all these balls (maybe not on the first shot) using inside, but I would hesitate to use outside, unless that was my only choice. I don't mean run the balls in the layout, I mean shooting any ball as it lies in the picture from where the cue ball is.

All of these shots are on the rail where hitting the rail with inside in these cases would be better than outside. Take the balls "1 off the rail and hit inside.

 

[CJ Wiley]

For the most part you use English to change the natural angle off a rail

Very nice and I can tell you play well, however you didn't have to really move the cue ball on any of those shots and I don't really consider inside or outside to be "English (or spin)" unless you are using it to move the cue ball around off the rails.

Hitting balls in the center of the table without the cue ball touching a rail isn't using "English" to me, unless you are using the "spin" to move the object ball off its natural path...or the cue ball.

This is correct, if the cue ball doesn't contact a rail, it's not "English" to me either. Even when you curve the cue ball it's more of a masse' than an "English shot".

For the most part you use English to change the natural angle off a rail or cushion. imo

 

[Banks]

I'll play anyone in the United State 20 straight hours and we'll see who backs up their claims.
I have not problem doing this once a week, it would get back in "dead stroke". :thumbup:

Then go do it, mr. mastershot. Or you could simply back up the things you've already said. (Posting a clip of twenty hours edited together doesn't count, in case you wanted to try that one again.)

Where are your northwest toi students? Suddenly they can't back up your claims?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes, the shot on the 2-ball was the kind of shot I referred to as my second use of inside english: "2) when the cut angle is such that inside is actually going to be running english and I need the running english for position."

I still remember the first time I used it successfully on a long-ish shot; I was grinning from ear-to-ear because I actually pocketed the ball and the CB mysteriously went where I wanted it to! (I'd used it often on short shots like the 2-ball in your example, but never on a long shot).

In any case, I'm always much less comfortable using inside english than outside; it just seems like so much more can go wrong re: pocketing the OB.

If you learn your cue's pivot point, bridge at this distance and learn to pivot without bridge movement, you'll be surprised to see how easy it is to make these shots with heavy IE. So long as you can pot the shot with follow, you can make it with heavy IE, so long as you become familiar with your cue's effective pivot point which will lengthen about 6 inches for long distances between CB and OB at medium speed. For closer shots, the cue's pure pivot point should suffice.

A traditional cue has a pivot point around 8 inches, LD cues are around 14 inches. This should help you to guess your own cue's pivot point.

You can search Back Hand English on youtube for some explanations, one of the videos is my own... another good one by Dr. Dave.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

This is correct, if the cue ball doesn't contact a rail, it's not "English" to me either. Even when you curve the cue ball it's more of a masse' than an "English shot".

For the most part you use English to change the natural angle off a rail or cushion. imo

Then we'd need another word to describe how cue ball spin induces object ball throw.

I'm thankful the US adopted the terms inside and outside english in addition to running and hold up or whatever you guys use. In the UK influenced world we've been reliant on the pretty useless concepts of running and check side only for 100+ years, hence many think running is always outside and vice versa, which is often not the case.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Then go do it, mr. mastershot. Or you could simply back up the things you've already said. (Posting a clip of twenty hours edited together doesn't count, in case you wanted to try that one again.)
Where are your northwest toi students? Suddenly they can't back up your claims?

Forget about the students.
Why don't YOU play him??

 

[DAVE_M]

Forget about the students.
Why don't YOU play him??

Forget about CJ and the students.
Why don't YOU play Banks??

 

[dr_dave]

You can search Back Hand English on youtube for some explanations, one of the videos is my own... another good one by Dr. Dave.

For those interested, lots of videos (including Colin's) and instructional articles on this topic can be found here:

back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE) resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[bdorman]

If you learn your cue's pivot point, bridge at this distance and learn to pivot without bridge movement, you'll be surprised to see how easy it is to make these shots with heavy IE. So long as you can pot the shot with follow, you can make it with heavy IE, so long as you become familiar with your cue's effective pivot point which will lengthen about 6 inches for long distances between CB and OB at medium speed. For closer shots, the cue's pure pivot point should suffice.

A traditional cue has a pivot point around 8 inches, LD cues are around 14 inches. This should help you to guess your own cue's pivot point.

You can search Back Hand English on youtube for some explanations, one of the videos is my own... another good one by Dr. Dave.

Cheers,
Colin

BHE and FHE are on my long list of things to learn/experiment, but I haven't had good results with it in the past. My OB2 has an incredibly long pivot point, much longer than my natural bridge length.

And yes, my use of inside is almost always with follow. I use inside with draw when I'm trying to kill the CB's distance (usually off the short rail), i.e. both OBs on the short rail and trying to keep the CB from traveling uptable.

 

[dr_dave]

BHE and FHE are on my long list of things to learn/experiment, but I haven't had good results with it in the past. My OB2 has an incredibly long pivot point, much longer than my natural bridge length.

And yes, my use of inside is almost always with follow. I use inside with draw when I'm trying to kill the CB's distance (usually off the short rail), i.e. both OBs on the short rail and trying to keep the CB from traveling uptable.

For some shafts, and for some shots, a combination of BHE and FHE will be required to created the necessary effective pivot point. For more info and demonstrations, see the following video:

NV E.2 - Back-Hand (BHE) and Front-Hand English (FHE), from HAPS I

and the following article (especially the 2nd paragraph on page 3):

"HAPS - Part II: BHE and FHE" (BD, December, 2014)

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

BHE and FHE are on my long list of things to learn/experiment, but I haven't had good results with it in the past. My OB2 has an incredibly long pivot point, much longer than my natural bridge length.

And yes, my use of inside is almost always with follow. I use inside with draw when I'm trying to kill the CB's distance (usually off the short rail), i.e. both OBs on the short rail and trying to keep the CB from traveling uptable.

Try bridging at 15 inches, which may not be your preference but relatively controllable and pivoting to near max inside english on the 2 ball shot we've discussed and try some shots a little thinner down to 1/2 ball. The reduced throw on the thinner shots may help.

Hit medium to firm speed, not soft... soft will increase throw which needs a thinner initial alignment and also increase swerve, which also needs thinner initial alignment or lengthening of bridge toward the initial pivot point.

I'm not a fan of BHE + FHE combinations. I think one is as well off just feeling shots or finding a particular mix for a whole range of speeds, angles and distances. BHE with a few knowledge based adjustments can make a player a world class squirt and swerve adjuster imho.

Let us know when you get a chance to trial those recommendations.

Cheers,
Col

 

[Banks]

Forget about the students.
Why don't YOU play him??

Because I'd rather hang myself than spend that much time around such a delusional narcissist? I've been playing only ten years, while working a job, having a relationship and trying to start a couple of side businesses. I don't pretend to be a pro. More pertinent to the conversation, i don't lie about what i sell.

How about you bring your hundred years of experience out to Oregon and try some? You keep talking like you're somebody - now's your chance to prove it. Personally, the way you follow around cj like a puppy, i think you're as likely to be Mary.. and probably play the same.

 

[Spimp13]

Banks staring down at Goldenflash on the ground be like..... :grin:

 

[Banks]

Banks staring down at Goldenflash on the ground be like..... :grin:

Lol! What a coincidence, i was just thinking about that movie, too. Must be something to do with July approaching here in Oregon. After driving 750 miles yesterday, I'm about ready for a little Friday.

I know an older gent that could play some for hours on end, too. Ask him about any secrets and he'd probably look at you like you hit your head. He did teach me a little in 1p and 14.1, but that's just because i had virtually no experience with those games.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Because I'd rather hang myself than spend that much time around such a delusional narcissist? I've been playing only ten years, while working a job, having a relationship and trying to start a couple of side businesses. I don't pretend to be a pro. More pertinent to the conversation, i don't lie about what i sell.
How about you bring your hundred years of experience out to Oregon and try some? You keep talking like you're somebody - now's your chance to prove it. Personally, the way you follow around cj like a puppy, i think you're as likely to be Mary.. and probably play the same.

Mary can beat you. So can CJ.
Deal the cards, little man.
(nobody cares about your resume, by the way. This is a pool shooting site)

 

[Banks]

Mary can beat you. So can CJ.
Deal the cards, little man.
(nobody cares about your resume, by the way. This is a pool shooting site)

Rofl. Send Mary on up. If Cj can't beat a regional A, he'd have to fall off a lot more than i think.

If it's a pool shooting site, then why is the only thing you're shooting off is somebody else's game? Always figured you were full of it, too.

Little man.. sounds like somebody can't back up their mouth. Go wash cjs clothes.