Preserving the angle

[Jal]

It's been awhile since I've played around with this. I always felt that the cue ball would throw in the opposite direction of the object ball and negate the purpose of hitting the shot full on. In other words, I thought that holding the cue ball from drifting with throw wasn't very effective.

What you say is very true. The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line. Some days you just can't win.

However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed, which might be significant enough when the balls are close to each other, as Bob J. mentioned above. This is due to a reduction in the ghost ball angle. The ghost ball angle is defined by Dr. Dave as the angle formed by the line of centers of the CB and OB and the line of centers of the CB and GB. This angle is typically only a few degrees (or less), as compared to the cut angle, which of course can approach ninety-degees.

So, suppose you're facing a cut of 10 degrees but want to make up five of the 10 degrees with throw in order to limit cueball travel. You then aim for a 5-degree cut with an appropriate amount of outside english. If the balls are, say, 18" apart, the change in ghostball angle from the 10-degree cut to the 5-degree cut is only about 0.6 degrees - far less than the 5-degrees of effective cut angle reduction you were hoping for. (You do reduce the cut angle by 5 degrees, but the opposite throw of the cueball you cited, in effect, results in a reduction of cueball speed down the tangent line characterized only by the difference in ghostball angles.)

If the balls are much closer, 6" say, the change in ghostball angle is now about 1.8 degrees. This is still fairly small, but enough to be useful when you really need to put the brakes on.

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

What you say is very true. The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line. Some days you just can't win.

However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed, which might be significant enough when the balls are close to each other, as Bob J. mentioned above. This is due to a reduction in the ghost ball angle. The ghost ball angle is defined by Dr. Dave as the angle formed by the line of centers of the CB and OB and the line of centers of the CB and GB. This angle is typically only a few degrees (or less), as compared to the cut angle, which of course can approach ninety-degees.

So, suppose you're facing a cut of 10 degrees but want to make up five of the 10 degrees with throw in order to limit cueball travel. You then aim for a 5-degree cut with an appropriate amount of outside english. If the balls are, say, 18" apart, the change in ghostball angle from the 10-degree cut to the 5-degree cut is only about 0.6 degrees - far less than the 5-degrees of effective cut angle reduction you were hoping for. (You do reduce the cut angle by 5 degrees, but the opposite throw of the cueball you cited, in effect, results in a reduction of cueball speed down the tangent line characterized only by the difference in ghostball angles.)

If the balls are much closer, 6" say, the change in ghostball angle is now about 1.8 degrees. This is still fairly small, but enough to be useful when you really need to put the brakes on.

Jim

Great info Jim.

However, I'd suggest players put more focus on striking the CB as softly as possible, timing the drag and aiming to the edge of the pocket as a more practical way of holding an angle.

One could also consider swerving into such a shot as a last option from a foot or so away, or playing as a masse' after hitting OB when the balls are close.

Colin

P.S. I should thank Bob who years ago showed me the test with CB and OB about an inch off the rail and playing at various separations. Pretty soon I realized the futility in using english to hold angles, unless the balls were very close, and even in this case, it's rarely significant enough to be useful in a match.

 

[ktrepal85]

Great info Jim.

However, I'd suggest players put more focus on striking the CB as softly as possible, timing the drag and aiming to the edge of the pocket as a more practical way of holding an angle.

One could also consider swerving into such a shot as a last option from a foot or so away, or playing as a masse' after hitting OB when the balls are close.

Colin

P.S. I should thank Bob who years ago showed me the test with CB and OB about an inch off the rail and playing at various separations. Pretty soon I realized the futility in using english to hold angles, unless the balls were very close, and even in this case, it's rarely significant enough to be useful in a match.

Swerving into a shot? I don't think you understand what throw is. And if you think throw is rarely significant enough to be useful in a match then you most not get much action on the cue ball. Either that or you're not paying attention.

 

[ktrepal85]

What you say is very true. The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line. Some days you just can't win.

However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed, which might be significant enough when the balls are close to each other, as Bob J. mentioned above. This is due to a reduction in the ghost ball angle. The ghost ball angle is defined by Dr. Dave as the angle formed by the line of centers of the CB and OB and the line of centers of the CB and GB. This angle is typically only a few degrees (or less), as compared to the cut angle, which of course can approach ninety-degees.

So, suppose you're facing a cut of 10 degrees but want to make up five of the 10 degrees with throw in order to limit cueball travel. You then aim for a 5-degree cut with an appropriate amount of outside english. If the balls are, say, 18" apart, the change in ghostball angle from the 10-degree cut to the 5-degree cut is only about 0.6 degrees - far less than the 5-degrees of effective cut angle reduction you were hoping for. (You do reduce the cut angle by 5 degrees, but the opposite throw of the cueball you cited, in effect, results in a reduction of cueball speed down the tangent line characterized only by the difference in ghostball angles.)

If the balls are much closer, 6" say, the change in ghostball angle is now about 1.8 degrees. This is still fairly small, but enough to be useful when you really need to put the brakes on.

Jim

Contradiction:

"The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line."

"However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed"


In one sentence you say the cue ball speeds up and in the next sentence you say it slows down lol. The first statement is not true. A fuller hit, will reduce the cue ball's speed after impact.

I agree with the rest of the your statement even though it's probably a little too technical for anybody to learn from.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Contradiction:

"The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line."

That's from spin-induced throw.

"However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed"

That's from the fuller hit.

The effects counteract each other, but JAL's statements are not contradictory. His point is that the second effect is only greater than the first (resulting in a net reduction of CB travel) when the CB and OB are very close together.

pj
chgo

 

[chefjeff]

(snip).. See pages 50/51 of Martin's "99 Critical Shots" for example.

That might be good for beginners, but it confused me as well as helping me until I researched it further.

Martin's explanation was too ambiguous, imho. Then came the internet.

Jeff Livingston

 

[9Ballr]

I am curious to see if anyone else uses English specifically to throw the object ball (with no cb contact to the rail).

All the time.

It's a feel thing for me. As is the entire game of pool.
Diamonds and all that stuff may as well not be there as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jal]

Contradiction:

"The friction (throw) that allows you to make a thicker hit on the object ball returns the favor and propels the cueball faster down the tangent line."

"However, there is a very modest reduction in the cueball's post-impact speed"


In one sentence you say the cue ball speeds up and in the next sentence you say it slows down lol. The first statement is not true. A fuller hit, will reduce the cue ball's speed after impact.

Yes, that does read like a contradiction. What I meant in the first sentence by "faster" is faster than if there were no friction (i.e., gearing english on the cueball) or normal friction/CIT (i.e., no english).


Jim

...but I see Patrick has already cleared that up.

 

[chefjeff]

A good drill is the where you place 4 to 7 balls in a semi-circle around the side pocket, take ball in hand. Start on one side of the circle and pot each ball in sequence without hitting a rail. To maintain shape, sometimes a little spin-induced throw helps.

A guy I know who taught pool at a university used to call that his "lunch money" technique. He'd easily run the balls while some student was watching then offer to bet 50 cents if the guy could do the same in 5 tries. He told me he never paid for lunch.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston

 

[Jal]

Swerving into a shot? I don't think you understand what throw is. And if you think throw is rarely significant enough to be useful in a match then you most not get much action on the cue ball. Either that or you're not paying attention.

Wrong side of the bed this morning?

Few people on this forum understand the technical and practical aspects of throw and swerve as well as Colin. He's even produced maps of the cueball's surface detailing how throw varies with spin at different cut angles. Not sure what your objections are to what he said (which I think was spot on)?

Jim

 

[chefjeff]

Great info Jim.

However, I'd suggest players put more focus on striking the CB as softly as possible, timing the drag and aiming to the edge of the pocket as a more practical way of holding an angle.

(snip).

Colin, a teammate and I were talking a while back about when to use draw/drag and I suggested it was best used for such a shot as you describe here, even a table-length shot, to throw the object ball of its intended path moreso than to spin the cb off the rail after the hit. He was adamant that that was impossible, or wrong as he said.

Does it work for you on table-length shots?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Swerving into a shot? I don't think you understand what throw is. And if you think throw is rarely significant enough to be useful in a match then you most not get much action on the cue ball. Either that or you're not paying attention.

He clearly meant using throw for this one purpose (holding the CB up) - which, by the way, is best done with relatively little "action" on the CB.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, a teammate and I were talking a while back about when to use draw/drag and I suggested it was best used for such a shot as you describe here, even a table-length shot, to throw the object ball of its intended path moreso than to spin the cb off the rail after the hit. He was adamant that that was impossible, or wrong as he said.

Does it work for you on table-length shots?

Jeff Livingston

Hey Jeff, my libertarian buddy

Not sure what shot you mean... I'm thinking table length between CB and OB, not table length OB travel.

When distance between CB and OB is large and there is some angle, it's quite a challenge to time/feel the drag to minimize CB movement and often, coming off a rail with side is a better way to hold... could you diagram it mate?

Colin

 

[Dan White]

Yes. It's pretty easy to show when the cue ball is close to the object ball. It's harder to show when the cue ball is more than a foot away from the object ball.

With inside english it's possible to make both the cue ball and the object ball move to the same side. (The object ball has to be close and the cut angle small.)

Based on the additional discussion here, I'm going to summarize that it is technically possible at close distances, but is impractical otherwise. That's what my intuition was telling me. I think cheating the pocket probably gets better results.

 

[chefjeff]

Hey Jeff, my libertarian buddy

Not sure what shot you mean... I'm thinking table length between CB and OB, not table length OB travel.

When distance between CB and OB is large and there is some angle, it's quite a challenge to time/feel the drag to minimize CB movement and often, coming off a rail with side is a better way to hold... could you diagram it mate?

Colin

Yes, a large distance between the ob and the cb where one must get some spin-induced throw to make the shot, even from such a distance, because of, e.g., an interference ball.

I don't know how to diagram a shot, sorry.

I used to only use draw/drag with no side spin, but with tables being more level than before, I tend to now mostly use Scott Lee's soft shot technique. Then I faced a long shot that needed SIT to make so I used draw/drag with a lot of side and I made it and held up the cb pretty well. It then dawned on me that that was a great use for draw/drag.

I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Colin Colenso]

Swerving into a shot? I don't think you understand what throw is. And if you think throw is rarely significant enough to be useful in a match then you most not get much action on the cue ball. Either that or you're not paying attention.

Kinda funny. I should send you all the throw charts I developed with Dr. Dave. Do a search and you'll find some posted here by me.

If anything, I'm a throw obsessed retard... but still, I don't know how you're confusing throw with my point about swerve.

Here's a diagram of what I meant. To swerve the CB along a new angle into the OB, as a way of preserving angle.

Don't analyze the options, I just dragged balls quickly to kind of demonstrate where one might use the swerve to hold shot.

Colin

Edit: Here's a video of me getting a bit of action on a few of the shots. Not bragging... ok, just bragging... quite proud of some of the shots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keznf66dSHE

 

[galipeau]

never thought to do this ^^^ very neat idea.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes, a large distance between the ob and the cb where one must get some spin-induced throw to make the shot, even from such a distance, because of, e.g., an interference ball.

I don't know how to diagram a shot, sorry.

I used to only use draw/drag with no side spin, but with tables being more level than before, I tend to now mostly use Scott Lee's soft shot technique. Then I faced a long shot that needed SIT to make so I used draw/drag with a lot of side and I made it and held up the cb pretty well. It then dawned on me that that was a great use for draw/drag.

I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

Got ya Jeff!

I don't recall Scott's soft shot technique, I fell asleep during his elbow high pendulum stroke masterclass ;-) and went into a coma when he started using CTE. :grin-square:

My earlier comments referred to making a CB hold when not obstructed, but it is a similar subject to talk about turning in obstructed ball, via throw or swerve or a combination thereof.

The long swerve, to which I think you are referring is a real challenge. Best for a table you're familiar with as conditions vary greatly. On closer shots, I love turning balls in, which can't be made without side english.

On these shots, which are mostly 7/8th to full it is worth keeping in mind that the maximum turn occurs at about 50% max tip offset at slowish speeds, not maximum offset. I'll attach a throw chart that may illuminate.

Slow speed is top left, right side is OE, left is IE on a 7/8ths ball cut. Low right is high speed. Each color band represents approx 1 inch per yard of throw of the CB. Hence in the image top left, for a slow shot, across the middle line which represents sliding CB, about 1 tip offset inside throws the OB 4 inches to right over 3 feet travel and 1 tip offset outside english turns the CB the same amount in the opposite direction, all with the same contact point on the OB.

I've had a few drinks tonight, so invite readers to excuse any lack of clarity or enhancement of obnoxiousness.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

never thought to do this ^^^ very neat idea.

Not easy to do, but possible... which is better than what some are trying, which is basically impossible.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Kinda funny. I should send you all the throw charts I developed with Dr. Dave. Do a search and you'll find some posted here by me.

If anything, I'm a throw obsessed retard... but still, I don't know how you're confusing throw with my point about swerve.

Here's a diagram of what I meant. To swerve the CB along a new angle into the OB, as a way of preserving angle.

Don't analyze the options, I just dragged balls quickly to kind of demonstrate where one might use the swerve to hold shot.

Colin

Edit: Here's a video of me getting a bit of action on a few of the shots. Not bragging... ok, just bragging... quite proud of some of the shots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keznf66dSHE

I can't watch the videos right now, but I assume you actually get movement of the cue ball to the hard side of the object ball.

I think the best drill to work on both kinds of side spin to preserve angle is Mosconi's ring around the side draw drill. Sometimes it needs a level stick and outside spin (with draw) to keep an angle and sometimes when you are really out of line you need to change to elevated inside and half-masse to make the angle.