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Butt foul?
- Thread starter Bob Jewett
- Start date
I don't see how that can be a foul unless a ball hit it. Same thing as a chalk cube falling on the table in the middle of a shot but it gets removed before anything hits it. Is it a foul just because something may have hit it if it was left on the table?
Then you may as well call the bridge you use when shooting a foul since if you did not stand up off the shot and move your hand off the table, a ball could hit it.
Maybe the ref considered the pocket as part of the playing surface, a ball could come in contact with the cue handle. I don't think it's legal to leave equipment on playing surface while shooting ?
Dale
They already quoted the rule so why is there any more debate about this?
It clearly is not a foul as specified by the official rules unless a ball hits it. According to the rules he can leave it in there the rest of the game and provided nobody shoots into that pocket and makes contact with it, it is never a foul. Our personal opinions about what should or should not be do not matter. This rule is not a gray area rule and is specific enough to provide full guidance in when a foul should be called.
I assume you mean that you accidentally hit their chalk and it enters the playing surface and makes contact with either the cue ball (before a shot) or another ball during the shot.
How about asking the guy not to leave it nicely the first time. Every time they do afterwards you simply knock it on the floor. They will eventually get sick of picking it up.
So... did anyone else expect something else when reading the title of the thread?
Would farting in the middle of a match be a butt foul?
Would farting in the middle of a match be a butt foul?
There is no question that it's a foul. The player intentionally placed an object in the pocket when the table was in play and proceeded to shoot with that object in the pocket. That's different than a piece of chalk accidentally falling on to the table.
The bridge is intended to be on the table during the shot. Of course the player has an obligation to remove it before it can interfere with any balls.
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Aloha Bob
I would guess that the Ref could state the following rule...
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.
Even though it was not intended to be used as an alignment device, it would in theory be on the table, and could potentially be used as such. Just to clarify, I think a warning would be issued first.
Or....6.16-h
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
It would definety fall under this one, the pocket is not a cue holder.
Aloha
I would guess that the Ref could state the following rule...
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.
Even though it was not intended to be used as an alignment device, it would in theory be on the table, and could potentially be used as such. Just to clarify, I think a warning would be issued first.
Or....6.16-h
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
It would definety fall under this one, the pocket is not a cue holder.
Aloha
Use of equipment for reasons other than was intended, probably. There is no question that the pocket is considered 'equipment.' The player was illegally using the pocket to assist him.
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You just made that joke 2,000% better. If there was a super rep button, I'd use it :thumbup:
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No worries.............
My thinking is more about why should the rules be bent.
If the referee allows a foreign object (something that is not part of the shot/game,) to be placed into a pocket for storage and there is no penalty for leaving it there, why can't something even more distractive be left in the pocket "for storage". Distractions should be eliminated or at least reduced in the game of pocket billiards. Having to ask your opponent to remove his jump butt (or anything else) is more than I would personally like to tolerate.
How about if a player brings his big ole sweaty towel to the table and decides to stuff it in one of the pockets "for storage"....Does the player's opponent really have to put up with any of those type of shenanigans?
Next up, perhaps we can have our seeing-eye dog to observe each shot and leave him at the table when we are finished shooting, "accidentally" leaving him there of course. No worries.....
JoeyA
My thinking is more about why should the rules be bent.
If the referee allows a foreign object (something that is not part of the shot/game,) to be placed into a pocket for storage and there is no penalty for leaving it there, why can't something even more distractive be left in the pocket "for storage". Distractions should be eliminated or at least reduced in the game of pocket billiards. Having to ask your opponent to remove his jump butt (or anything else) is more than I would personally like to tolerate.
How about if a player brings his big ole sweaty towel to the table and decides to stuff it in one of the pockets "for storage"....Does the player's opponent really have to put up with any of those type of shenanigans?
Next up, perhaps we can have our seeing-eye dog to observe each shot and leave him at the table when we are finished shooting, "accidentally" leaving him there of course. No worries.....
JoeyA
If the foul was called it is accurate but as Paul Harvey would say, "now here's the rest of the story." It's a bullshit ticky tack foul. Now if any ball came close to the pocket, you might be able to make a case for calling a foul. Brings to mind the call against Efren playing Mike Siegal. Cue ball only fouls were the rule with a caveat that if you disturbed any ball(s) and any other ball came close to it, then that could be called a foul. Efren moved an object ball slightly and before any of the balls stopped, he moved it back to where he thought it was. Mike called foul in that the balls hadn't stopped moving and who knows whether the moved ball might have been struck. Now it gets better. Efren was incensed by the call and broke down his cue to quit and was talked back into finishing the match. Mike protested of course stating the if you break down your cue, you've conceded. The breaking down of your cue rule was adopted after that match and has been in effect ever since.
Anyone have a link or accustat reference to this...i would like to see that.
Mike can get irritating.
Saw Mike run over (backed over, actually) Ortman while he (Ortman) was shooting at adjacent table during an IPT match at Hardtimes, Bellflower. Mike was body english..ing a shot that he had just hit.
Ortman was bugged, Mike was not overly apologetic.
...haven't heard of 'Efrem' getting that steamed...good for him..every once in a while.
It actually happens so very often in our part of the World; by WSR there are no grounds to call it a foul, besides it has no impact on the outcome of the play, etc. In a nutshell: no harm done !!!
Although it may be seen as not elegant - it is what Players do frequently, therefore we accept it as a natural development, etc.
Common Law comes into mind
Ruling: no foul, no warning, accepted.
I am sorry to say this, but we should not be going towards the "Ump Show".
This kind of approach aften arises at Referees' Courses where the "referees to be" want to know how to be "important".
The answer is always:
We are the Refs not the "gendarmerie"
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It actually happens so very often in our part of the World; by WSR there are no grounds to call it a foul, besides it has no impact on the outcome of the play, etc. In a nutshell: no harm done !!!
Although it may be seen as not elegant - it is what Players do frequently, therefore we accept it as a natural development, etc.
Common Law comes into mind
Ruling: no foul, no warning, accepted.
I am sorry to say this, but we should not be going towards the "Ump Show".
This kind of approach aften arises at Referees' Courses where the "referees to be" want to know how to be "important".
The answer is always:
We are the Refs not the "gendarmerie"
It's not the Ump Show. It's a foul. It's illegal and shouldn't be allowed, ref or no ref.
Well, I tried to be dyplomatic
however, it seems you are still well into your Ump Show, sorry :frown:The facts are:
You have no solid grounds to call it a foul
Most of the pool playing world considers it as a "proper conduct"
It constitutes no impact on the outcome of the shot
It does neither damage to the equipment nor to the game
You must be reasonable when dealing with delicate issues
etc.
Common Sense ???
???Perhaps you should rethink your position on this
There should be a separate forum section for these types of issues. It can be called..." How can I win more without playing better than my opponent".
I don't care if someone puts their wallet, car keys, phone and Joe Biden bobble head on the table, and a GI Joe with Kung Fu Grip in the corner pocket as long as they aren't using it to set up the shot, nothing hits it, and its gone before I get to the table.
I don't care if someone puts their wallet, car keys, phone and Joe Biden bobble head on the table, and a GI Joe with Kung Fu Grip in the corner pocket as long as they aren't using it to set up the shot, nothing hits it, and its gone before I get to the table.
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