Butt foul?

[Dockter]

What happens when I leave the bottom of my break jump cue in the pocket after my inning is over and my opponent makes a shot an the cue ball goes round the table and is going to go into the pocket but it hits my break jump butt sitting in the pocket and the cue ball stays on the table?

What would happen if my opponent shoots an object ball toward the pocket where I left my break jump butt and the OB hits the protruding butt left in the pocket and caroms into the pocket (it might have hit the point and not gone in)?

The what ifs can go on forever. I've seen players pushing the envelope (taking the only piece of chalk off of the table, putting their hands really close to a cluster of balls as they are leaving the table, knocking chalk onto the floor, throwing their cue stick on the floor, etc.) just to get their opponent out of sync. By the time enough of these "distractions" are compounded, the distracted player has no chance of playing their regular game and calling a foul at that time does the honest player no good.

JoeyA

That was already covered Joey.

The situation is covered in CSI rules, Applied Ruling 1-3, Situation 3:

Situation: Player A, preparing to shoot a jump shot, unscrews the extended butt from their jump-break cue and places it in a pocket. They then forget that the butt is in the pocket and leave it there after their inning. Player B shoots and a ball (a) rebounds from the pocket; (b) is pocketed despite the presence of the butt.

Ruling: (a) foul on Player A; (b) The result of the shot stands and the game continues.
Discussion: With the exception of chalk left on the rail, if equipment used by a player and left at the table directly interferes with their opponent’s shot, it is a foul on the player that left the equipment. If a player leaves equipment at the table and it is discovered before it interferes with the game, or if it interacts with the balls during a shot without causing a disadvantage to the opponent, it shall be removed without penalty, but a warning may be issued.

 

[Jdale]

It actually happens so very often in our part of the World; by WSR there are no grounds to call it a foul, besides it has no impact on the outcome of the play, etc. In a nutshell: no harm done !!!

Although it may be seen as not elegant - it is what Players do frequently, therefore we accept it as a natural development, etc.

Common Law comes into mind

Ruling: no foul, no warning, accepted.



I am sorry to say this, but we should not be going towards the "Ump Show".
This kind of approach aften arises at Referees' Courses where the "referees to be" want to know how to be "important".
The answer is always:
We are the Refs not the "gendarmerie"

When I started playing pool many years ago.
If at any time you used table pocket to hold your cue, while racking, going to the toilet, etc. you got one warning, second time you would be looking for another place to play pool. Room owners considered sticking a cue in the pocket as abusive to their tables, same a parking your ass on the table rails.
I guest you would call that an "owners show"

 

[JC]

It's a foul. You can't block a pocket just because you're shooting in the other direction.

If I were the ref I'd follow it with a warning that if he does it again, it's loss of game.

Interfering with the table when it is in play, illegal use of equipment (the pocket), and bordering unsportsmanlike behavior.

Ref show people's exhibit "A"

The prosecution rests it's case.

JC

 

[JoeyA]

Dockter,

So in (a) situation, Player B would have cue ball in hand if the object ball (or the cue ball) rebounds out of the pocket?

In (b) situation, Player B's cue ball looks like it is NOT GOING TO SCRATCH BUT IS going to hit the point, but because of the protruding break butt, the cue ball caroms into the pocket off of the break butt and so Player B loses his inning at the table and Player A has cue ball in hand?

Thanks,

JoeyA

That was already covered Joey.

The situation is covered in CSI rules, Applied Ruling 1-3, Situation 3:

Situation: Player A, preparing to shoot a jump shot, unscrews the extended butt from their jump-break cue and places it in a pocket. They then forget that the butt is in the pocket and leave it there after their inning. Player B shoots and a ball (a) rebounds from the pocket; (b) is pocketed despite the presence of the butt.

Ruling: (a) foul on Player A; (b) The result of the shot stands and the game continues.
Discussion: With the exception of chalk left on the rail, if equipment used by a player and left at the table directly interferes with their opponent’s shot, it is a foul on the player that left the equipment. If a player leaves equipment at the table and it is discovered before it interferes with the game, or if it interacts with the balls during a shot without causing a disadvantage to the opponent, it shall be removed without penalty, but a warning may be issued.

 

[Dockter]

I'm not a fan of it but it happens a lot around here. I've never thought about calling a foul on it though. I just don't understand why you would place it there I guess. Shot gets missed badly or you knock into an unexpected ball and rush to grab it sounds like a good way to take a chunk out of your cue to me.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

So a ref I know made a ruling and was wondering if he made a mistake. You may well have seen a similar situation....

A player came up against a jump shot and went to get his break/jump cue. He unscrewed the bottom part of the butt as he approached the table and placed it standing up in a corner pocket for storage. He shot the shot.

Under what conditions is the above illegal? Should he have called a foul?

A guy at the pool room the other day did that during the weekly tournament. His penalty was loosing his jump butt down the hole....lol They have to take the slate off to get it out

 

[Dockter]

Dockter,

So in (a) situation, Player B would have cue ball in hand if the object ball (or the cue ball) rebounds out of the pocket?

In (b) situation, Player B's cue ball looks like it is NOT GOING TO SCRATCH BUT IS going to hit the point, but because of the protruding break butt, the cue ball caroms into the pocket off of the break butt and so Player B loses his inning at the table and Player A has cue ball in hand?

Thanks,

JoeyA

That's an interesting question. I only thought of an ob being pocketed not the cb. From the look of the rule that would be correct but can't be right can it?

 

[tatcat2000]

Dockter,

So in (a) situation, Player B would have cue ball in hand if the object ball (or the cue ball) rebounds out of the pocket?

In (b) situation, Player B's cue ball looks like it is NOT GOING TO SCRATCH BUT IS going to hit the point, but because of the protruding break butt, the cue ball caroms into the pocket off of the break butt and so Player B loses his inning at the table and Player A has cue ball in hand?

Thanks,

JoeyA

Good catch Joey. Your proposed situation was not considered when the ruling was written. In fact, the presumption was that the butt would be leaning away from the bed, as opposed to resting against the pocket shelf. The overall intent of the ruling was that the offended player would benefit from the result of the shot.

Even though I'm not actively editing anymore I'll make sure this is addressed in the next edition. You are right...it needs to be fixed to prevent your situation.

Buddy

 

[JoeyA]

You have always been one COOL REFEREE Buddy!

JoeyA

Good catch Joey. Your proposed situation was not considered when the ruling was written. In fact, the presumption was that the butt would be leaning away from the bed, as opposed to resting against the pocket shelf. The overall intent of the ruling was that the offended player would benefit from the result of the shot.

Even though I'm not actively editing anymore I'll make sure this is addressed in the next edition. You are right...it needs to be fixed to prevent your situation.

Buddy

 

[alstl]

(Note that I didn't say whether my ref friend called a foul. Maybe the seated player jumped up and asked him to call one.)

I have seen ump shows in pool games. I think they are usually due to a ref not actually knowing the rules. An example I heard (IIRC) is when Allen Hopkins was playing and had cue ball in hand. He placed it and took some (short) warmup strokes and decided it wasn't going to work, so he picked the cue ball up to put it in a better place. The ref called a cue ball foul. The rules may be clearer now, but I don't think that was a foul under the rules at the time (1980 or so).

If a player violates a rule, and there is a referee, the ref must call a foul. It's not up to the opponent to prompt the ref -- it's the refs job to call all fouls. That includes a fairly common violation of the rules that is a game-loser at nine ball that is often overlooked in unrefereed games.

I remember during a IPT match Allison Fisher had a foul called on her when she used her cue to adjust the position of the cue ball prior to breaking the balls. I don't know whether that is a foul but I'd consider that an "ump show". Nobody shows pays money to watch the referee call nonsense like that, they show up to watch the pool players play pool.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I remember during a IPT match Allison Fisher had a foul called on her when she used her cue to adjust the position of the cue ball prior to breaking the balls. I don't know whether that is a foul but I'd consider that an "ump show". Nobody shows pays money to watch the referee call nonsense like that, they show up to watch the pool players play pool.

That was a specific and explicit rules for the IPT. Busty got called on it too. In contrast, they did not have the rule where one foot must be on the floor. I believe it was Archer who got up on all fours on top of the table to take a shot.

 

[alstl]

That was a specific and explicit rules for the IPT. Busty got called on it too. In contrast, they did not have the rule where one foot must be on the floor. I believe it was Archer who got up on all fours on top of the table to take a shot.

That's weird. I wonder who wrote the rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That was a specific and explicit rules for the IPT. Busty got called on it too. In contrast, they did not have the rule where one foot must be on the floor. I believe it was Archer who got up on all fours on top of the table to take a shot.

I think they fixed that rule right after that shot.

 

[iusedtoberich]

That's weird. I wonder who wrote the rules.

What I liked about the IPT, is they had explicit rules, and they enforced them, without question. I see too many times people do not enforce a rule. Even if the rule is stupid, it should be enforced, as long as its in the books.