Why don't cuemakers do this? More to the point why don't we let them?

[Kobachi]

I like your idea JCIN

I like your idea, but I wonder how I would feel if...(this doesn't apply to me)...

I was on, say, Herceks list for a bunch of years, and my number was coming up...and Joel showed up to the show with a few beauties for the proposed raffle chance. I wouldn't help but wonder, if he hadn't been taking the time to create these few extra cues, would my order have been taken sooner? I'm torn on this I guess.

Great idea none the less.
.
.

 

[DAVE_M]

I like your idea, but I wonder how I would feel if...(this doesn't apply to me)...

I was on, say, Herceks list for a bunch of years, and my number was coming up...and Joel showed up to the show with a few beauties for the proposed raffle chance. I wouldn't help but wonder, if he hadn't been taking the time to create these few extra cues, would my order have been taken sooner? I'm torn on this I guess.

Great idea none the less.
.
.

I thought about it, after my first two posts, and came to the realization that...

There are a lot of full time knife makers.
There are not a lot of full time cue makers.

 

[JasBy]

I think that if this did come to fruition - and I agree it would be a great idea - you might see the wait lists of the top tier cue makers change, perhaps significantly.
I get the feeling (mostly by looking at many posts and for sale threads here - which I realize may not be indicative of the general public) that there are 3 types of people that order cues from the top tier.
First are those that truly want a cue from those makers to have their 'ultimate' playing cue. I think that this is the smallest segment of the customers.
Next comes those you want one just to have one and say they have one and show it to people. These are the people that have safes full of cues and love to go to shows to shop.
Thirdly, and the most prevalent, are the flippers. They sit on the wait lists, some I'm sure have multiple spots, and when they get their cue they rave about how incredible it is, monster player etc... and then sell it. They had no intention of ever keeping it - it's more of a business to them.
(btw - I am not judging at all - it's your money - I see the advantages of all 3 scenarios)

If the top guys started doing JCIN's idea, there would be a shift in the market if some could not have to wait to get the cues. Perhaps the flippers would have less customers of the first variety to sell to. Though I imagine a large number of the people at the shows entering to buy the cue would be doing so just to make a profit. Perhaps the extra availability would bring down the secondary market prices. I think the collectors would still wait to get the cue they personally designed or commissioned, so their business would remain unchanged.

Just some thoughts, thanks for following along my ramblings.

 

[macguy]

I thought about it, after my first two posts, and came to the realization that...

There are a lot of full time knife makers.
There are not a lot of full time cue makers.

If you just google suppliers for knife parts you get pages. It is a very popular hobby. If you do the same with pool cues you get like 4.

Building cues is also a popular hobby but not near the extent of knife making it would seem. I think for the most part both are hobbies with few making a living at it.

For that matter though the cue repairman can make quit a bit of money working on cues. I am not sure there is such a lucrative repair business with knives.

 

[macguy]

I think that if this did come to fruition - and I agree it would be a great idea - you might see the wait lists of the top tier cue makers change, perhaps significantly.
I get the feeling (mostly by looking at many posts and for sale threads here - which I realize may not be indicative of the general public) that there are 3 types of people that order cues from the top tier.
First are those that truly want a cue from those makers to have their 'ultimate' playing cue. I think that this is the smallest segment of the customers.
Next comes those you want one just to have one and say they have one and show it to people. These are the people that have safes full of cues and love to go to shows to shop.
Thirdly, and the most prevalent, are the flippers. They sit on the wait lists, some I'm sure have multiple spots, and when they get their cue they rave about how incredible it is, monster player etc... and then sell it. They had no intention of ever keeping it - it's more of a business to them.
(btw - I am not judging at all - it's your money - I see the advantages of all 3 scenarios)

If the top guys started doing JCIN's idea, there would be a shift in the market if some could not have to wait to get the cues. Perhaps the flippers would have less customers of the first variety to sell to. Though I imagine a large number of the people at the shows entering to buy the cue would be doing so just to make a profit. Perhaps the extra availability would bring down the secondary market prices. I think the collectors would still wait to get the cue they personally designed or commissioned, so their business would remain unchanged.

Just some thoughts, thanks for following along my ramblings.

Where would all these extra cues come from? The cue maker still has to build them, be they to fill an order and just offer up for sale. If people know he has ready to sell cues out the door they would be sold. He would still not have any to bring to a show. Its a catch-22.

 

[DAVE_M]

For that matter though the cue repairman can make quit a bit of money working on cues. I am not sure there is such a lucrative repair business with knives.

Actually, there is a lucrative repair business with knives, typically by the maker, because knife makers take care of their customers. You don't see that often with cue makers.

Also, there are thousands of knife modifier's, or knife pimps (as they are called in the knife community), that will repair or modify your knife how you want.

The YouTube channel TuffThumbz (Geoff Blauvelt) started as videos showing recent knife modification work. He eventually became a master of his craft and went from a knife "pimp" to a full time knife maker. He now makes very high quality knives that go for $1,000+.

Where would all these extra cues come from? The cue maker still has to build them, be they to fill an order and just offer up for sale. If people know he has ready to sell cues out the door they would be sold. He would still not have any to bring to a show. Its a catch-22.

Then cue makers should be making cues full time, if ready made cues can be sold so easily.

 

[dom_poppa]

I like your idea, but I wonder how I would feel if...(this doesn't apply to me)...

I was on, say, Herceks list for a bunch of years, and my number was coming up...and Joel showed up to the show with a few beauties for the proposed raffle chance. I wouldn't help but wonder, if he hadn't been taking the time to create these few extra cues, would my order have been taken sooner? I'm torn on this I guess.

Great idea none the less.
.
.

I have to agree with this. Just look at some of the cuemakers who supposedly have a long list and people suddenly are posting pictures of their new cues from said cuemakers.

They make up for their friends or people they know well. If they don't know you, you are put back on the list.

 

[franko]

Most

Most Cue buyers that are having a cue built are very picky about everything, the length, balance point, tip, wrap, points, veneers, weight. For a good cue maker to satisfy 25 to 50 individuals per year is not only time consuming but mind boggling. I think that is why the top tier cue makers stay with customers they have somewhat of a relationship with.I don't think knife collectors are that concerned about so many different aspects of a collectible knife then a cue collector is about a cue. The sad thing is most top tier Cue Makers do not feel all that comfortable in large crowds of collectors, they hear a lot of begging and nit picking and that tends to make them second guess their appearance there.

 

[jeffj2h]

Cue makers can reduce being harassed at shows if they increase their communication.

I don't know the major phases in making a cue, but assume for a minute there are 5. A cue maker could take a picture and send it to the customer at each of these 5 steps, with a few sentences of status update. Imagine how happy his customers would be! They would be here on AZ raving about the great customer service.

 

[cleary]

Many cuemakers have lists of customers. Like South West is the most well known. You put your name on a list today and around 2025 you will get a call asking what you want your cue to look like.

IMO that's just silly. To a certain extent, being hard to get makes your cues worth more but I think this is just bad business. With a demand that high, they're losing too much money to not add the necessary help to produce more cues per year without sacrificing quality. I could never buy something like that personally.

 

[JCIN]

there are shows where this does occur
i met Paul Mottey,Tim Scruggs,Ernie,Terry Romine and a few others on my first tournament in Reno Nevada some 30 years ago

I bought cues from each of these guys and met even more of them at a trade show in Ft worth,and another one in Nashville

I met a few others at shows in Las Vegas,but I lost interest in the shows,they were
too time consuming and conflicted with my business,plus I get home sick in about 8 hours

I do believe that you have some good ideas,but I think the cue makers are actually doing more
than most of us realize,

Some only make a dozen or so pr year so it would be hard to give away a large percent of their work,but I think some of these profitable and I applaud your input,this is the kind of idea that
I would like to see discussed on AZ

No one is giving anything away. They are raffling the right to purchase.

 

[DAVE_M]

IMO that's just silly. To a certain extent, being hard to get makes your cues worth more but I think this is just bad business. With a demand that high, they're losing too much money to not add the necessary help to produce more cues per year without sacrificing quality. I could never buy something like that personally.

+1

In relation to knives...

Rick Hinderer's knives are highly sought after. His prices were reasonable, but the secondary market prices were sky high, because he couldn't meet the demand. So, he built a bigger shop and hired more workers. His demand grew and the supply still couldn't be met, so he built and even bigger shop.

That's typically how a business grows, but most cue makers don't care for that. Bob Meucci is about the only person, that I can think of, that grew his cuemaking business.

With the demand for Southwest cues, you would expect them to open up shop and start cranking them out, considering they are pretty much a production cue anyway.

 

[JCIN]

Knife makers would laugh if they found out how long it takes to make cues .
They don't have to season woods for four years or so for shafts .
They don't need to take a 1/4MM off their blades then wait weeks to take out another 1/4MM.
They can hammer forge blades, and grind them in the same week
Even the ones who make folders and flippers do not have it as bad as cue makers when it comes to labor and time.

I watched a video of a famous knife maker on youtube. He was working on burl inlays. And he was so frustrated b/c he kept breaking the inlays. He was so dejected he spent some 3 hours making them and he only had maybe 4 that were good. Three hours ? Three hours of wasted labor to a cue maker b/c things didn't pan out is nothing. Think days,weeks and maybe months . Seen ebony crack in a FINISHED cue? If a knife maker had to deal with cue makers' frustrations, most of them would probably quit .

I'm sure a cue maker would have plenty of fun building an out the front auto as well. The challenges are different but at the highest level the end result is the same: Makers can not build enough for everyone that wants one. Thats what I am addressing here not a d!ck measuring contest on whose job is harder.

 

[cleary]

Cue makers can reduce being harassed at shows if they increase their communication.

That also amazes me. I once paid up front for a cue to be made and was told it would take a few months. With very little communication and a lot of unanswered emails, I got frustrated and just asked for my money back… (got a quick response to that email!) He told me he just needed to finish the shafts so I took the cue…. turned out I got a very different cue than I wanted about 2 years later than I was quoted, all due to poor communication. I don't fault the cue maker, he's a good guy, just think he's just stretched himself too thin.

I do a lot of side work in my free time and it makes up a small percentage of my income, I know it's not easy if something is your side gig but communication and honesty is huge.

 

[JCIN]

Aren't most all knives from custom knife makers collectables for the most part? They are tools but unlike cues are not really used. A cue has to pass a lot more scrutiny then a knife, it has to meet every expectation.

I know plenty of people that carry $500-$1000 knives every day. I'm one of them. I know plenty more who have safes full of them. Also I dont think you have been around many knife guys to make that last statement. The collectors who pay $1000's for knives have just as keen an eye as any cue guy.

 

[JCIN]

I thought about it, after my first two posts, and came to the realization that...

There are a lot of full time knife makers.
There are not a lot of full time cue makers.

The guys I am talking about are full time makers. The best in the world at what they do.

 

[JCIN]

I think that if this did come to fruition - and I agree it would be a great idea - you might see the wait lists of the top tier cue makers change, perhaps significantly.
I get the feeling (mostly by looking at many posts and for sale threads here - which I realize may not be indicative of the general public) that there are 3 types of people that order cues from the top tier.
First are those that truly want a cue from those makers to have their 'ultimate' playing cue. I think that this is the smallest segment of the customers.
Next comes those you want one just to have one and say they have one and show it to people. These are the people that have safes full of cues and love to go to shows to shop.
Thirdly, and the most prevalent, are the flippers. They sit on the wait lists, some I'm sure have multiple spots, and when they get their cue they rave about how incredible it is, monster player etc... and then sell it. They had no intention of ever keeping it - it's more of a business to them.
(btw - I am not judging at all - it's your money - I see the advantages of all 3 scenarios)

If the top guys started doing JCIN's idea, there would be a shift in the market if some could not have to wait to get the cues. Perhaps the flippers would have less customers of the first variety to sell to. Though I imagine a large number of the people at the shows entering to buy the cue would be doing so just to make a profit. Perhaps the extra availability would bring down the secondary market prices. I think the collectors would still wait to get the cue they personally designed or commissioned, so their business would remain unchanged.

Just some thoughts, thanks for following along my ramblings.

You make some good points. I dont think the market would change much if at all for the top guys. I am talking about one or two shows a year with between two and five cues a show. I would expect two to three. So you are talking about an extra four to six cues a year in the wild. For some guys this is a lot and they may only do one show with one or two cues.

No matter what all three categories of those people would be excited and have a reason to go check out that show.

 

[slide13]

I'm curious, what sort of custom knives are you into? I too am into custom knives, though it's something I was way more into years ago. Back then it was tacticals (Mayos, Scott Cooks, Obenauf, JW Smith, JL Williams, Hinderer,etc). These days I'm mostly just interested in slip joints from Erickson or Bose.

And I agree with you. I spent 9 years on Reese Bose's list waiting for a knife I ordered and in that time I'm sure he made a dozen or more knives off-list that were for show lottery's or whatever. I have zero problem with that as I have access to those if I want to go to the show too. If you want something built specifically for you that is when you have to wait and that wait includes them doing some off-list knives.

Cue making is different though, it certainly takes a lot longer that is for sure. A few days and a maker can go from raw materials to a completed simple slipjoint. Both require skill, but cuemaking requires a lot of down time in between steps. Not sure how that factors in, but it's something I recognize.

And to Macguy's point - no, most custom knives are not just collectibles. They are often held to incredibly high standards in all aspects. I've carried and used customs knives daily in the past.

 

[JCIN]

IMO that's just silly. To a certain extent, being hard to get makes your cues worth more but I think this is just bad business. With a demand that high, they're losing too much money to not add the necessary help to produce more cues per year without sacrificing quality. I could never buy something like that personally.

Its simple math. If they can make 100 cues a year and they have 1000 orders thats what it is.

Its not unusual. Ferrarri doesnt ramp up production because more people want one than can own one on certain models. They raise the price.

 

[DAVE_M]

The guys I am talking about are full time makers. The best in the world at what they do.

Even then, if the best in the world makes 10 cues per year, that's 10 cues they already have sold to a customer. They would either need to increase production or make a few customers wait.

The knife industry stays well off, because there are a lot of smaller makers doing high quality work. Whereas the cue industry is full of low end garbage and only a few high quality makers.

Its simple math. If they can make 100 cues a year and they have 1000 orders thats what it is.

Its not unusual. Ferrarri doesnt ramp up production because more people want one than can own one on certain models. They raise the price.

The problem comes with those cuemakers not wanting to attend shows, because it's more money out of their pocket and they already have a their books filled with orders, so they think it doesn't benefit them. While I would love to see a cue show, like Blade and The Gathering, it will probably never happen.