Centerball...haters gonna hate

ElCorazonFrio said:
Your use of the word 'same'...does it mean 'same' or does it mean 'about the same'?

Because it won't be the same.
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Patrick does not seem to understand the complete total concept. He seems to only understand the odds of one mishitting their target & that there CAN be an equal amount of miss hit. He seems to not understand that WITH the proper plan one can miss their CB target & still pocket the ball with a wider margin for error because the PLAN makes the pocket not literally but effectively larger given the method used.

He is speaking about a specific set of parameters that I understand but have not seen him specify.

If one aims to center pocket with a planned center hit, then one only has a 1/2 pocket size margin for error. Pull that back to the ball collision point & even farther back to the tip hitting the center CB & how small is that? That is like trowing for the center of the plate or 'aiming' for the center of a fairway or green. It seems that he does not understand that that is NOT how athletes play their perspective games. Why do tennis players spin their second serves instead of attempting another flat serve? It is because there is a wider margin for success to hit higher over the net & to spin the ball back down before the line. I realize that that is not an exact analogy & nor would the golf or baseball one be either but the basic principle is the same & that is why athletes in those sports utilize the principle.

This is just food for thought for those that want to consider CJ Wiley's TOI method, as PJ will never convince me that he is correct & I have stopped trying to convince him since he seems to have a closed mind to the subject.

Best to All.

PS Being off by 2 or even 1 mm can certainly be significant & I can notice it WHEN I rarely want to hit center & don't. That's the beauty of intending to hit to one side with a plan. The worse a good stroke will do is hit center but 'never' cross over to the other side.
 
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This thread has sort of turned comical. Thank you for the Wednesday entertainment. I'll stick to shooting center ball on most shots and continue to play very solid pool. To each their own :D
 
ENGLISH! said:
...WITH the proper plan one can miss their CB target & still pocket the ball with a wider margin for error because the PLAN makes the pocket not literally but effectively larger given the method used.
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Aiming at one side of the pocket and squirting the OB to center pocket doesn't do any of this. In fact, it's no different from aiming to hit center pocket with sidespin as usual (with aim corrected for squirt).

Guess it's time to put ENGLISH back on ignore...

pj
chgo
 
ENGLISH! said:
Patrick does not seem to understand the complete total concept. He seems to only understand the odds of one mishitting their target & that there CAN be an equal amount of miss hit. He seems to not understand that WITH the proper plan one can miss their CB target & still pocket the ball with a wider margin for error because the PLAN makes the pocket not literally but effectively larger given the method used.

He is speaking about a specific set of parameters that I understand but have not seen him specify.

If one aims to center pocket with a planned center hit, then one only has a 1/2 pocket size margin for error. Pull that back to the ball collision point & even farther back to the tip hitting the center CB & how small is that? That is like trowing for the center of the plate or 'aiming' for the center of a fairway or green. It seems that he does not understand that that is NOT how athletes play their perspective games. Why do tennis players spin their second serves instead of attempting another flat serve? It is because there is a wider margin for success to hit higher over the net & to spin the ball back down before the line. I realize that that is not an exact analogy & nor would the golf or baseball one be either but the basic principle is the same & that is why athletes in those sports utilize the principle.

This is just food for thought for those that want to consider CJ Wiley's TOI method, as PJ will never convince me that he is correct & I have stopped trying to convince him since he seems to have a closed mind to the subject.

Best to All.

PS Being off by 2 or even 1 mm can certainly be significant & I can notice it WHEN I rarely want to hit center & don't. That's the beauty of intending to hit to one side with a plan. The worse a good stroke will do is hit center but 'never' cross over to the other side.
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Well I don't care for the tennis analogy but golf is actually a correct analogy in some respects. Most players either play a fade or draw, pros tend to play a fade but in both cases its not excessive. However, there are pros who will say why play a fade or draw when I can just hit it straight?

I can see merit in erring on the side of caution (no pun intended) but FOR ME and this is just for me, I find that it causes more harm than good to my game and makes the way I "aim" lol, feel weird. Always relying on inside ensures cueball control almost the same way centerball does. However, relying on the deflection to overcut the ball slighty but also throw it with the spin can be a little sktechy. Cutting balls thin with inside is also a little funny.

Outside can induce or reduce throw which can be positive and negative. Being off 1 mm or 1 degree of from center isnt going to hurt that much. I use English as needed and just try a stroke as straight as I can and make balls. The thing is that the spin and deflection kind of counteract when there is a slight error so going for center has merit as well.
 
ktrepal85 said:
Example 1(aiming for centerball): Miss left by 1 mm - Severe Difference In Throw
Example 1(aiming for centerball): Miss right by 1 mm - Severe Difference In Throw

Example 2(aiming for 1mm left): Miss left by 1 mm - Medium Difference in Throw
Example 2(aiming for 1mm left): Miss right by 1 mm - Severe Difference in Throw.
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I believe this is simply wrong. How about some detailed explanation of how these things happen?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Aiming at one side of the pocket and squirting the OB to center pocket doesn't do any of this. In fact, it's no different from aiming to hit center pocket with sidespin as usual (with aim corrected for squirt).

Guess it's time to put ENGLISH back on ignore...

pj
chgo
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What you say above indicates to me that you either don't understand as those are not the same or you are just being disingenuous.

In either case, we've been through this before & as I said, I do not intend to try to convince you. But, if you don't mind, could you answer this question for me?

Have you ever played any other ball related sport?

Best Wishes.
 
The Renfro said:
Frantistic advice and observation... Most people that can't understand this are likely looking at it from a non pool players perspective... Thinking only of a 4 1/2" pocket and a straight in shot where the permissible error is the largest.... Shots where more than brushing the rail spells disaster or shots where you have less than a full pocket reward you for english use and hedging not finding the wrong side of whitey......
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Hi Chris,

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
I enjoy straight pool and one pocket. Both are games that require softer hits on the OB than rotation games and therefore result in less squirt / deflection on the CB than one would notice firing a ball firmly.

That being said, I still see no reason (for the most part) to use english, (left / right) other than to change angles off rails for position, or a bit of outside to help guard against skids on certain shots.

In one pocket there may be more call to very softly spin an OB near a specific location without the CB hitting a rail firmly enough to change rebound angles, the same concept is true in straight pool to shoot a shot into a pocket while bumping into a ball to put it in position as a break shot using spin to turn it either higher or lower along the side of the rack area, but for the most part, why complicate a shot if you don't have to.

While I'm not a big fan, a TOI english on nearly straight in long shots to guard against unwanted outside spin throwing the shot off line is a technique used though. I made note of this on the forum quite a while before my friend CJ stole it and ran with it ... LOL. I'm still waiting for 4 bucks in royalties. :thumbup:
 
An old road player some 60 years ago was watching me shoot using English on most shots. He told me 90% of the time, no English is needed. I think that is true for 14.1 pool but rotation games...not so much. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
An old road player some 60 years ago was watching me shoot using English on most shots. He told me 90% of the time, no English is needed. I think that is true for 14.1 pool but rotation games...not so much. Johnnyt
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It's not needed for the shot making specifically in any game. But, in rotation games where you are commonly traveling from one end of the table to the other, it's needed to gain speed off the rails.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Have you ever played any other ball related sport?

Best Wishes.
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I have no dog in any fights here, but I'm not sure of the relevance of this question. I think other sports might help more with footwork and your stroke, but not with this.
 
Drop The Rock said:
Well I don't care for the tennis analogy but golf is actually a correct analogy in some respects. Most players either play a fade or draw, pros tend to play a fade but in both cases its not excessive. However, there are pros who will say why play a fade or draw when I can just hit it straight?

I can see merit in erring on the side of caution (no pun intended) but FOR ME and this is just for me, I find that it causes more harm than good to my game and makes the way I "aim" lol, feel weird. Always relying on inside ensures cueball control almost the same way centerball does. However, relying on the deflection to overcut the ball slighty but also throw it with the spin can be a little sktechy. Cutting balls thin with inside is also a little funny.

Outside can induce or reduce throw which can be positive and negative. Being off 1 mm or 1 degree of from center isnt going to hurt that much. I use English as needed and just try a stroke as straight as I can and make balls. The thing is that the spin and deflection kind of counteract when there is a slight error so going for center has merit as well.
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Rock,

I could say much but you seem satisfied with what you're doing.

Shoot Well.
 
DaveM said:
I have no dog in any fights here, but I'm not sure of the relevance of this question. I think other sports might help more with footwork and your stroke, but not with this.
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No dog fight here & I'm sorry you're not sure of the relevance. But if you don't mind, have you played any other ball related sports?

Best Wishes.
 
centerball

I agree with those saying centerball means using the vertical axis... meaning hitting close to center ball and following through with a rolling follow where you use gravity (weight of cb vs friction of cloth) and speed to send a proper cb for that particular shot. I rarely, if ever, hear centerball used as it relates to draw because the cb is now defying gravity and roll and most people use the term draw when referencing that style shot. English is addition of left/right.

An actual real centerball hit is a punch shot where the cb floats into the ob like a knuckleball. It expands the angle of deflection on thick hits but, as with a knuckleball, the cb & ob can do some strange things at impact....

imo of course
 
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ENGLISH! said:
No dog fight here & I'm sorry you're not sure of the relevance. But if you don't mind, have you played any other ball related sports?

Best Wishes.
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Sure almost all of them. Some for decades. Won a couple of state B titles in handball but I popped my Achilles playing the national one wall champ, knocked me out. ( I was ahead btw). Still don't think it applies to this thread.
 
DaveM said:
Sure almost all of them. Some for decades. Won a couple of state B titles in handball but I popped my Achilles playing the national one wall champ, knocked me out. ( I was ahead btw). Still don't think it applies to this thread.
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Is not part of this thread about controlling the ball?
 
I haven't read every pool book but the ones I have read advocate using whatever English the shot calls for. What book says you should always use center ball.
 
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