How do system users adjust for shot speed?

iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been fooling around a lot the past few months and really paying attention to how the CB comes off the tip depending on tip position and speed. How much the CB curves and how much it squirts. Also how much the CB throws the OB, which to me I have found depends a lot on cut angle. So my brain puts all this information together, and for any given "total shot situation", meaning pocketing the ball and getting position on the next, and everything that goes along with that, I have a specific fullness of aim on the OB and a specific hit on the CB to make that happen.

I can set up the exact same shot, marking the CB and OB with doughnuts, and hit the same spot on the CB with the tip, while varying the stroke speed. If I hit it with a fast stroke speed vs a slow stroke speed, one will pocket the ball, and the other will miss by a mile.

This is information I finally figured out on my own on the table after playing for 20 yrs. I now have shots in my repertoire that I never did before. And shots that sometimes I'd make, and sometimes I'd miss (without understanding why), I finally understand what is going on.

How does a system player reconcile this? I'm seriously not trying to start anything. I just can't understand if the system says to align to the shot the same way every time, how it adjusts for the squirt/swerve combination being different on varying speeds. I've heard people say some systems (at least the CTE derivatives) are center ball hit systems only, and then another adjustment is needed. What is that adjustment? I've heard people before mention BHE. In my experience, BHE does not work at all. As I said, I can set up a shot with doughnuts, vary the speed, and it will miss by a mile. That shows BHE does not work without further adjustments. So how do the system guys make these adjustments?

Thanks.
 
By using the system to start and then for the next 20 years of making shots and getting shape.:thumbup:

It ain't easy.

Be well.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've been fooling around a lot the past few months and really paying attention to how the CB comes off the tip depending on tip position and speed. How much the CB curves and how much it squirts. Also how much the CB throws the OB, which to me I have found depends a lot on cut angle. So my brain puts all this information together, and for any given "total shot situation", meaning pocketing the ball and getting position on the next, and everything that goes along with that, I have a specific fullness of aim on the OB and a specific hit on the CB to make that happen.

I can set up the exact same shot, marking the CB and OB with doughnuts, and hit the same spot on the CB with the tip, while varying the stroke speed. If I hit it with a fast stroke speed vs a slow stroke speed, one will pocket the ball, and the other will miss by a mile.

This is information I finally figured out on my own on the table after playing for 20 yrs. I now have shots in my repertoire that I never did before. And shots that sometimes I'd make, and sometimes I'd miss (without understanding why), I finally understand what is going on.

How does a system player reconcile this? I'm seriously not trying to start anything. I just can't understand if the system says to align to the shot the same way every time, how it adjusts for the squirt/swerve combination being different on varying speeds. I've heard people say some systems (at least the CTE derivatives) are center ball hit systems only, and then another adjustment is needed. What is that adjustment? I've heard people before mention BHE. In my experience, BHE does not work at all. As I said, I can set up a shot with doughnuts, vary the speed, and it will miss by a mile. That shows BHE does not work without further adjustments. So how do the system guys make these adjustments?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Rich, first thing you have to understand is that with more speed comes more inaccuracy. Both of exactly where one hits the cb, and with the line of the shot. Most amateurs think they know exactly where they hit the cb. Yet, tests show that most amateurs are not accurate enough to hit the cb precisely. Increasing speed only make that inaccuracy a larger factor. Mark Wilson has some good examples of this in his book.

First key, is to be able to hit the cb precisely where one intends to, at various speeds. Once this is accomplished, the cue then comes into play. How much deflection does your particular cue have, and how much do you need to adjust your line of aim for the squirt ofr the cb that it will produce?

Aiming methods give one the line of the shot to center pocket with no english. Any time one uses english, that line has to adjusted to the new line of aim. There are a variety of ways to make that adjustment, going from just feel or experience all the way to precise adjustments using the edges and center of the ferrule. You have to find one that works reliably for YOU.

The way I found what works for me is by paying very close attention to detail. When using english, exactly where is my center tip pointed, exactly where are the edges of the ferrule aligned to. (that is not looking straight down the edges of the cue, but in my peripheral vision of the edges) On standard shots, at what length do I not have to allow for swerve, at what length shot do I have to allow for it, and how much ??

All this info is for the subconscious mind to figure out. First see it with the conscious, observe what actually is happening, then allow the subconscious to figure out what to do and allow it to do it. You don't want too much conscious thought involved. As it will mess you up. The big key is this- observe and learn, then allow the brain to take over.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've been fooling around a lot the past few months and really paying attention to how the CB comes off the tip depending on tip position and speed. How much the CB curves and how much it squirts. Also how much the CB throws the OB, which to me I have found depends a lot on cut angle. So my brain puts all this information together, and for any given "total shot situation", meaning pocketing the ball and getting position on the next, and everything that goes along with that, I have a specific fullness of aim on the OB and a specific hit on the CB to make that happen.

I can set up the exact same shot, marking the CB and OB with doughnuts, and hit the same spot on the CB with the tip, while varying the stroke speed. If I hit it with a fast stroke speed vs a slow stroke speed, one will pocket the ball, and the other will miss by a mile.

This is information I finally figured out on my own on the table after playing for 20 yrs. I now have shots in my repertoire that I never did before. And shots that sometimes I'd make, and sometimes I'd miss (without understanding why), I finally understand what is going on.

How does a system player reconcile this? I'm seriously not trying to start anything. I just can't understand if the system says to align to the shot the same way every time, how it adjusts for the squirt/swerve combination being different on varying speeds. I've heard people say some systems (at least the CTE derivatives) are center ball hit systems only, and then another adjustment is needed. What is that adjustment? I've heard people before mention BHE. In my experience, BHE does not work at all. As I said, I can set up a shot with doughnuts, vary the speed, and it will miss by a mile. That shows BHE does not work without further adjustments. So how do the system guys make these adjustments?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Besides being less accurate stroke-wise, higher speed also reduces the amount of CB/OB throw, so the aim compensation for that must change.

As for how systems adjust for such things, I don't think any of them do - it's up to the shooter to make those adjustments with or without a formal system. For instance, the often repeated claim that the CTE system "takes you to" a slight overcut to compensate for throw is an obvious fantasy, maybe for those uncomfortable with the idea that they have to do that themselves.

pj
chgo
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've heard people before mention BHE. In my experience, BHE does not work at all. ... So how do the system guys make these adjustments?
Click to expand...

I use BHE almost exclusively, so I'll share how I make adjustments for Squirt, Swerve and Throw (as PJ added as a requirement).

Squirt: No need to adjust, bridging at my pure pivot point does that. But when forced to bridge shorter or longer, I use experience of the expected throw to adjust my initial aim, when intending to use english.

Swerve: Though I've made formulas, based on distance to CB and speed of shot, and table speed factor, to determine the length by which I increase my bridge length pivot, I can estimate this bridge length adjustment quite effectively intuitively. It's rarely more than a couple of inches longer than my natural pivot point bridge length. Softer long shots are the exception, but these ought to be avoided if possible.

Throw: I strive to align to the pot angle with the throw of a medium-firm natural follow shot. This throw is pretty much the same as most draw shots, firm stun shots and medium to firm inside english shots with cut angles greater than 10 degrees.

So I need to adjust on the following shots. I'll explain how I adjust after each shot.

Power draw or power follow: These will throw thinner (closer to the line of centers). To adjust I adjust my aim to undercut a little if the pocket is several feet away.

Soft stun: These throw thicker. I usually adjust with a touch of outside. There is a 40% gearing angle rule, but I go more like 25% as my natural aim is not for Line of Centers angle, the medium firm rolling pot aims a little thinner than LOC. The 40% rule is that the outside tip offset should be 40% of the distance from center OB to the contact point for LOC to pocket, to achieve perfect gearing. Hence, to more angle, the more tip offset, and spin is required to get zero throw.

Straightish with IE and slow inside english cuts: These throw thick, so I aim to overcut these shots. For example, with OB 2 foot from a corner pocket, just off straight, doubling the corner with the CB with follow and right IE, I aim the OB to the right side of the pocket, the throw turns it to the center of the pocket.

Outside english: I tend to try to play most of these with little beyond gearing english, as thinning throw is scarily high on moderate to heavy outside english. When I need to use heavy OE, I aim considerably thick on the shot such that the OE throws the OB to the pocket.

Slow roll: These throw thicker, so I either aim a little thinner or use a touch of outside, depending on length from CB to OB and positional or bridging requirements. A touch of OE has the benefit of reducing the effect of kicks, though it can make swerve compensation difficult on some shots.

This might seem complex, but however one plays, they need to be able to find a way to deal with all these variables, and if it's always by guessing, one's capacity for improvement will be limited I believe.

I would estimate that I aim about 80-90% of shots the same way, as if aligning to pot with medium-firm natural follow, using my knowledge of pivot length adjustments and the spin and speed requirements to create a collision with near identical throw as my aim requires.

Colin

Note: If you found BHE didn't work, I suspect you were trying it mostly with outside english. Outside english create high variability in throw, and most of the time it requires aiming to undercut when using BHE. I avoid heavy outside for this reason when the OB isn't near to a pocket. One exception is with extreme power with extreme oustide english, where the throw reduces to close to line of centers. On those shots, I aim just a little thicker than I usually would.
 
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Thank you all for replying.

From what I'm reading, all of you that are system users, make an adjustment based on your own personal experiences and observations to account for different CB paths off of the tip, different CB to OB interactions, and different stroke speeds.

To Neil: I completely agree, I'm probably not hitting the CB exactly where I think I am, especially as the shot speed increases.

To Colin: Thanks for your detailed explanation. I do not use BHE myself. I line up to the shot with the english and stick angle already in place. My "proof" to me that BHE does not work (for me) was only the observation that while attempting the exact same hit on the CB, but with 2 different speeds, the OB will change course by a mile. That single observation showed to me that BHE cannot work for all shots. It sounds like you agree with this, and use BHE as a baseline, and then make further adjustments to it based on your own experiences.

OK, sounds like we are all on the same page. Thanks for the discussion:)
 
iusedtoberich said:
Thank you all for replying.

From what I'm reading, all of you that are system users, make an adjustment based on your own personal experiences and observations to account for different CB paths off of the tip, different CB to OB interactions, and different stroke speeds.

To Neil: I completely agree, I'm probably not hitting the CB exactly where I think I am, especially as the shot speed increases.

To Colin: Thanks for your detailed explanation. I do not use BHE myself. I line up to the shot with the english and stick angle already in place. My "proof" to me that BHE does not work (for me) was only the observation that while attempting the exact same hit on the CB, but with 2 different speeds, the OB will change course by a mile. That single observation showed to me that BHE cannot work for all shots. It sounds like you agree with this, and use BHE as a baseline, and then make further adjustments to it based on your own experiences.

OK, sounds like we are all on the same page. Thanks for the discussion:)
Click to expand...
No worries.

There's a fair chance you weren't bridging at your pivot point, changed your bridge length or shifted the bridge during the pivot if your results were way off. I probably only need to adjust on 30% of shots and most of these are slight throw adjustments, which people need to make whatever aiming system they use. It is a very predictable squirt compensation method once a player knows their pivot point and can coordinate the pivot without bridge movement or swiping.

If you haven't seen my BHE introduction video, it may help to check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Colin
 
Speed Control

I think system users are just aiming. When it comes to speed control they do things exactly like everyone else.

I do have a drill I will run on occasion that helps with it.

From cue ball at the spot to the other end of the table is 1 speed. then back to the middle of the table is 2, onto the next rail is 3 then back to the middle is 4 and onto the far rail is 5.

This drill will give you something visual to grab onto and something your memory can remember when choosing shot speed and is very useful. When you are playing it all becomes instinctive and you choose speed based on what you know. If you know just this much those nuances of speed are easier to understand when you are having a case of nerves.
 
I've been toying with this rough system for speed control over the last couple daysl. I haven't worked out all the kinks, but it's useful for getting a rough idea.

So for me the center of the cueball has several points from top to bottom that I assign points to.

Top to bottom in half tip increments is:

-3
-2
-1
0----This is a tip and a half above center and used for rolling the cueball
+1
+2
+3----this is the exact center of the cueball
+4
+5
+6
+7

So the concept is you pretend you're rolling the cueball along the intended path (you have to use a little imagination to pretend it can roll along that path)

Once you figure out how much energy it would take to roll it. You assign points to get the intended line. You get this by taking the total points and dividing it in half.

So let's say you're a diamond away from the object ball. You pretend to roll it to your desired location. But you want to hit it with stun, which is +3 points (3/2=1.5) So now you extend your line by 1.5 diamonds, and hit it with that speed to have it stun along the line to your actual desired location.

If you know you have to hit it with a little draw, you pretend you're rolling it along the line, and now you extend the line by 2 diamonds instead (4/2 = 2 diamonds).

For straight draw backs I use 7, which is half a tip below the middle point between the center and bottom of the ball. I pretend I'm lagging it forwards, then backwards then 3.5 diamonds past my intended target.

You still need to feel how much speed you lose off the rail or by how full you hit the ball, but you're imagining rolling the whole time.

Oh and if you intend to follow a ball, and you hit it at -3, then you subtract 1.5 diamonds from your roll speed.

This first diamond the cueball is away from the object ball doesn't count.

I just made it up the other night so don't freak out on me.
 
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Not freaking but...

tonythetiger583 said:
I've been toying with this rough system for speed control over the last couple daysl. I haven't worked out all the kinks, but it's useful for getting a rough idea.

So for me the center of the cueball has several points from top to bottom that I assign points to.

Top to bottom in half tip increments is:

-3
-2
-1
0----This is a tip and a half above center and used for rolling the cueball
+1
+2
+3----this is the exact center of the cueball
+4
+5
+6
+7

So the concept is you pretend you're rolling the cueball along the intended path (you have to use a little imagination to pretend it can roll along that path)

Once you figure out how much energy it would take to roll it. You assign points to get the intended line. You get this by taking the total points and dividing it in half.

So let's say you're a diamond away from the object ball. You pretend to roll it to your desired location. But you want to hit it with stun, which is +3 points (3/2=1.5) So now you extend your line by 1.5 diamonds, and hit it with that speed to have it stun along the line to your actual desired location.

If you know you have to hit it with a little draw, you pretend you're rolling it along the line, and now you extend the line by 2 diamonds instead (4/2 = 2 diamonds).

For straight draw backs I use 7, which is half a tip below the middle point between the center and bottom of the ball. I pretend I'm lagging it forwards, then backwards then 3.5 diamonds past my intended target.

You still need to feel how much speed you lose off the rail or by how full you hit the ball, but you're imagining rolling the whole time.

Oh and if you intend to follow a ball, and you hit it at -3, then you subtract 1.5 diamonds from your roll speed.

This first diamond the cueball is away from the object ball doesn't count.

I just made it up the other night so don't freak out on me.
Click to expand...

Your post is kind of hard to follow but unless you have a way of controlling the stroke "which is all feel" I would tend to think that the tip position is relative.

You can hit the ball as hard as you want from any tip position so I really don't see how tip position relates to distance.
 
If the tip position is high (top), the CB will roll farther with the same hit closer to center.

Be well
 
336Robin said:
You can hit the ball as hard as you want from any tip position so I really don't see how tip position relates to distance.
Click to expand...
As LAMas says (I think), a rolling ball (high hit) will travel farther than a sliding ball (lower hit) for the same stroke speed.

pj
chgo
 
-3: If you want to use maximum follow, you pretend you're lagging the cue ball to the desired location, and you subtract 1.5 diamonds (3 divided by 2)

-2 or -1: if you want to follow you pretend youre lagging the desired route and subtracting either 1 diamond or half a diamond from your intended route.

0: This is lag speed and the feel part of the equation. You will have to know how to roll the cueball where you want it to go. All the other positions are built on this part.

+1: Now instead of subtracting diamonds like you did for follow, the cueball needs more power to get where you want it to go. So you determine how much stroke you need to lag it that distance, and now you add half a diamond, and so on and so forth for +2,+3,+4,+5,+6 and +7. Which are adding: 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, and 3.5 diamonds.

So you picture lagging the ball that distance, and then you pretend you're lagging it a little more or less depending on how many diamonds you need to add or subtact.
 
Standard Strokes

tonythetiger583 said:
-3: If you want to use maximum follow, you pretend you're lagging the cue ball to the desired location, and you subtract 1.5 diamonds (3 divided by 2)

-2 or -1: if you want to follow you pretend youre lagging the desired route and subtracting either 1 diamond or half a diamond from your intended route.

0: This is lag speed and the feel part of the equation. You will have to know how to roll the cueball where you want it to go. All the other positions are built on this part.

+1: Now instead of subtracting diamonds like you did for follow, the cueball needs more power to get where you want it to go. So you determine how much stroke you need to lag it that distance, and now you add half a diamond, and so on and so forth for +2,+3,+4,+5,+6 and +7. Which are adding: 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, and 3.5 diamonds.

So you picture lagging the ball that distance, and then you pretend you're lagging it a little more or less depending on how many diamonds you need to add or subtact.
Click to expand...

I think the key here is standard strokes and learning variations, you are also going to have variations due to hit overlap thicknesses being different. I believe I read where Buddy Hall had 3 standard draw strokes and he adjusted them by using different points on the ball for those three strokes giving him what he needed.
 
tonythetiger583 said:
I've been toying with this rough system for speed control over the last couple daysl. I haven't worked out all the kinks, but it's useful for getting a rough idea.

So for me the center of the cueball has several points from top to bottom that I assign points to.

Top to bottom in half tip increments is:

-3
-2
-1
0----This is a tip and a half above center and used for rolling the cueball
+1
+2
+3----this is the exact center of the cueball
+4
+5
+6
+7

So the concept is you pretend you're rolling the cueball along the intended path (you have to use a little imagination to pretend it can roll along that path)

Once you figure out how much energy it would take to roll it. You assign points to get the intended line. You get this by taking the total points and dividing it in half.

So let's say you're a diamond away from the object ball. You pretend to roll it to your desired location. But you want to hit it with stun, which is +3 points (3/2=1.5) So now you extend your line by 1.5 diamonds, and hit it with that speed to have it stun along the line to your actual desired location.

If you know you have to hit it with a little draw, you pretend you're rolling it along the line, and now you extend the line by 2 diamonds instead (4/2 = 2 diamonds).

For straight draw backs I use 7, which is half a tip below the middle point between the center and bottom of the ball. I pretend I'm lagging it forwards, then backwards then 3.5 diamonds past my intended target.

You still need to feel how much speed you lose off the rail or by how full you hit the ball, but you're imagining rolling the whole time.

Oh and if you intend to follow a ball, and you hit it at -3, then you subtract 1.5 diamonds from your roll speed.

This first diamond the cueball is away from the object ball doesn't count.

I just made it up the other night so don't freak out on me.
Click to expand...

Have you considered that it takes less cue speed to lag a CB 2 rails hitting CCB than it does if hitting a tip above center?

That hitting 70% high offset is all that is required to essentially start the CB off with natural roll?

Or that a rolling CB rolls through an OB, on a straight shot, to approximately 1/6th the distance it would have traveled if it didn't hit an OB? At higher speeds, it's more like 1/5th from memory.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Have you considered that it takes less cue speed to lag a CB 2 rails hitting CCB than it does if hitting a tip above center?
Click to expand...
Does this take into account the drag effect of the sliding CB when hit at center?

Or that a rolling CB rolls through an OB, on a straight shot, to approximately 1/6th the distance it would have traveled if it didn't hit an OB? At higher speeds, it's more like 1/5th from memory.
Click to expand...
Another way to think of this is 1/6 or 1/5 the distance the OB would travel - useful for estimating the shortest follow distance possible for a pocket speed shot.

pj
chgo
 
BHE provides too much correction for soft slow shots where swerve corrects back. BHE long med to hard shots. FHE mid to short and Parallel (no correction) really soft short shots. That is what Dr. Dave preaches and I find it to be true. BHE is not a cure all for everything.
 
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