This. But I do love me some side spin!!!
Centerball...haters gonna hate
- Thread starter ktrepal85
- Start date
Just guessing and I may be completely wrong. I think stroke speed may be more important than what English you apply. It has been said that the harder we hit the cue ball, the less accurate we become. Who is more accurate when needed? The player who plays 90% vertical axis but now needs to play side spin or the player who plays mainly side spin and needs to play center vertical axis? Maybe it's a toss up. Know one knows really. Question is. Who won the match?
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To Neil:
I've thought about it more, and my main point is this:
When someone is giving advice, especially an instructor/high level player, the vocabulary should be something like this:
"Learn to play all over the cue ball. Center ball, extreme spin, and everything in between. Do not limit yourself to only one type of play. If you master all of the possible hits, you will have more shots at your disposal, and will be able to use the best one for the situation you face at the table"
Now, you are correct, when one says something like "use center ball as much as possible", that does not explicitly mean that person is recommending to NOT learn all the other hits. However, I feel it does subconsciously imply that, at least to some extent.
So IMO, if the standard advice given was the first one, (and the player followed the advice) the player would put equal time into all the hits. If the advice was the second one, the player would put the majority of time into center axis hits, and by extrapolation, he will be that much stronger in his center ball hits, and weaker in his other hits.
Yes, I agree that center ball hits are more predictable because the CB goes in a straight line, with no squirt, and no swerve. But, to play well, we must know all these deviations from a straight line path to amazing precision, and be able to execute these deviations on command.
My 3 cents
I've thought about it more, and my main point is this:
When someone is giving advice, especially an instructor/high level player, the vocabulary should be something like this:
"Learn to play all over the cue ball. Center ball, extreme spin, and everything in between. Do not limit yourself to only one type of play. If you master all of the possible hits, you will have more shots at your disposal, and will be able to use the best one for the situation you face at the table"
Now, you are correct, when one says something like "use center ball as much as possible", that does not explicitly mean that person is recommending to NOT learn all the other hits. However, I feel it does subconsciously imply that, at least to some extent.
So IMO, if the standard advice given was the first one, (and the player followed the advice) the player would put equal time into all the hits. If the advice was the second one, the player would put the majority of time into center axis hits, and by extrapolation, he will be that much stronger in his center ball hits, and weaker in his other hits.
Yes, I agree that center ball hits are more predictable because the CB goes in a straight line, with no squirt, and no swerve. But, to play well, we must know all these deviations from a straight line path to amazing precision, and be able to execute these deviations on command.
My 3 cents
To Neil:
I've thought about it more, and my main point is this:
When someone is giving advice, especially an instructor/high level player, the vocabulary should be something like this:
"Learn to play all over the cue ball. Center ball, extreme spin, and everything in between. Do not limit yourself to only one type of play. If you master all of the possible hits, you will have more shots at your disposal, and will be able to use the best one for the situation you face at the table"
And, every instructor on here has said that. As far as just high level players, one in particular has said the opposite, and that is to not use center ball axis at all.
Now, you are correct, when one says something like "use center ball as much as possible", that does not explicitly mean that person is recommending to NOT learn all the other hits. However, I feel it does subconsciously imply that, at least to some extent.
I don't know why you would think that. When driving, you are told to stay in the right lane as much as possible. Does that mean you shouldn't learn how to pass someone by using the left lane? Of course it doesn't, so why would you make the coreelation you did?
So IMO, if the standard advice given was the first one, (and the player followed the advice) the player would put equal time into all the hits. If the advice was the second one, the player would put the majority of time into center axis hits, and by extrapolation, he will be that much stronger in his center ball hits, and weaker in his other hits.
Yes, I agree that center ball hits are more predictable because the CB goes in a straight line, with no squirt, and no swerve. But, to play well, we must know all these deviations from a straight line path to amazing precision, and be able to execute these deviations on command.
My 3 cents
What does every decent instructor teach- practice your weak areas and make them strengths. So, to use that here, practice using english and make it a strength. That doesn't mean you have to use it even most of the time though. It means one should learn both ways of play.
Again, far too many don't even practice. Their practice is actually playing. Playing and practice are two totally different things. As YOU know. Practice is where one learns how to do something. Play is where they use the KISS principle and keep things as simple as possible. Only pulling out the things that are a little harder to do when necessary. But when one actually only plays, there is a lot that they won't learn to do.
Quote: ENGLISH!
Some would be scared to death to attempt to hit a an 85mph baseball if they saw one up close. But over some time one can loose that fear after they foul a couple off & realize how close they are to hitting one.
Ugh...Rick,
Could you make that a 65 m.p.h. fastball. Heck; I'm 55. Could you make it 45 m.p.h? Could we use a rubber ball too? I mean, 85 m.p.h? That's college division II territory!
Some would be scared to death to attempt to hit a an 85mph baseball if they saw one up close. But over some time one can loose that fear after they foul a couple off & realize how close they are to hitting one.
Ugh...Rick,
Could you make that a 65 m.p.h. fastball. Heck; I'm 55. Could you make it 45 m.p.h? Could we use a rubber ball too? I mean, 85 m.p.h? That's college division II territory!
I dunno about y'all but hitting center ball is tough for me lol
Hi Tim,
That's why most everyone (some) would be scared just seeing it up close much less trying to hit it, but with time & experience... 'Fear Strikes Out'.
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Being able to shoot consistently with spin is a high level of play. It takes loads and loads of practice. So how does a player become a spin player? It starts with a player who plays close to the center and commits to expanding his or her horizons outward on the cue ball. Nobody starts playing pool by spinning balls.
It's an evolution, not a flaw. It only becomes a flaw when the player's success rate changes for the worse.
Players will often develop a preference based on the type of game they prefer, or the game they played as they developed. Rotation experts like Reyes for example, tend to prefer spinning the ball. Reyes also had to endure humid table conditions in the Philippines for many years. Allison Fisher may look like an exception when she plays 9-Ball, as she prefers to punch the ball, but it makes perfect sense, as her roots are in snooker.
The only way to truly understand how it feels to be a spin player is to step outside your comfort zone and practice spinning balls. Most amateur players never push past the part when they start missing shots. They immediately go back to their comfort zone.
But beware ---- Once you start, you may never want to stop because you will be able to do things that almost don't make sense. Ask the great rotation players and they'll tell you.
It's an evolution, not a flaw. It only becomes a flaw when the player's success rate changes for the worse.
Players will often develop a preference based on the type of game they prefer, or the game they played as they developed. Rotation experts like Reyes for example, tend to prefer spinning the ball. Reyes also had to endure humid table conditions in the Philippines for many years. Allison Fisher may look like an exception when she plays 9-Ball, as she prefers to punch the ball, but it makes perfect sense, as her roots are in snooker.
The only way to truly understand how it feels to be a spin player is to step outside your comfort zone and practice spinning balls. Most amateur players never push past the part when they start missing shots. They immediately go back to their comfort zone.
But beware ---- Once you start, you may never want to stop because you will be able to do things that almost don't make sense. Ask the great rotation players and they'll tell you.
I lived in Florida a few years ago and played in an 18 + up league. I saw some 90+ pitching from time to time. I also saw some rockets off of aluminum bats come my way at third base and lived to talk about it!
Learning to play with spin is a natural progression for all players as they develop their games. How much and when to use it comes with experience. Playing close to center is a good idea if you're a lower level or novice player, but the game becomes a lot more interesting if you learn how to make the cue ball listen.
Best,
Mike
and sometimes you have to change up...
Depending on conditions you have to be versatile...
I am a finesse player by choice, but under some conditions, you have to become a power stroker.
When humidity is high or cloth sucks or table has rolls, you have to adjust, but when possible I will always be a finesse player using type of spin and amount of spin as needed.
Not becoming comfortable using spin and having it available limits what shot selections you have and I disagree with anyone saying that it's better to limit your options.
With BHE and LD tech, there's just no excuse to limit yourself to center ball axis.
It seems that those who advocate such have a fear of using side spin.
ME, I will setup the same shot and shoot it with every type of english ten times each and I doubt there's anyone that can predict accurately which shots will be missed the most(including myself), although I doubt I'd miss more than two of any of the types of shots.
Having that ability is not something that comes from shying away from shots outside of the center axis.
Jaden
p.s. There are stages to learning that can help your progression in ability and using center ball only, and then only follw and drw until you become proficient at doing so is a good method for learning. Once you become proficientat doing so though, it is foolish to not then practice, learn and PLAY using side spin to learn what it can do for you and what shot options it can open up for you.
It gives you a higher skill level and once you become proficient with side spin and learn what it offers you, you can decide what shots to use it on with an informed insight as to risk/reward.
Depending on conditions you have to be versatile...
I am a finesse player by choice, but under some conditions, you have to become a power stroker.
When humidity is high or cloth sucks or table has rolls, you have to adjust, but when possible I will always be a finesse player using type of spin and amount of spin as needed.
Not becoming comfortable using spin and having it available limits what shot selections you have and I disagree with anyone saying that it's better to limit your options.
With BHE and LD tech, there's just no excuse to limit yourself to center ball axis.
It seems that those who advocate such have a fear of using side spin.
ME, I will setup the same shot and shoot it with every type of english ten times each and I doubt there's anyone that can predict accurately which shots will be missed the most(including myself), although I doubt I'd miss more than two of any of the types of shots.
Having that ability is not something that comes from shying away from shots outside of the center axis.
Jaden
p.s. There are stages to learning that can help your progression in ability and using center ball only, and then only follw and drw until you become proficient at doing so is a good method for learning. Once you become proficientat doing so though, it is foolish to not then practice, learn and PLAY using side spin to learn what it can do for you and what shot options it can open up for you.
It gives you a higher skill level and once you become proficient with side spin and learn what it offers you, you can decide what shots to use it on with an informed insight as to risk/reward.
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I still wonder who you guys think you're talking about here. I don't recall anybody advocating "limiting yourself to center ball axis". It's like two separate threads got mixed up here.
pj
chgo
Of course they are...
When you say that you should use center ball as much as possible, you ARE limiting yourself to centerball axis...
You should not favor anything but what makes the most sense for that shot and gives the highest probability of success.
If you are favoring one over the other simply because you aren't as capable of using spin, then you need to WORK on using spin...
The best choice for shape should not be dictated by your skill in executing it...If it is, then that's something you need to work on.
It's as simple as that.
If you're making a shot selection that favors center axis over side spin for any reason other than it's the best choice for that situation(table layout wise, not skill of shot wise), you're doing it wrong and it's time to learn and or work on some things.
Jaden
Again, this is based on someone being at close to a maxed out skill level NOT using side spin...
I taught the person who is starting to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best, rotation players in Colorado and I didn't let him strike a ball at all for two months of learning, I didn't let him use draw and follow for 4 months, and didn't let him use side spin for 6-9 months. (This was playing and practicing 8-12 hours a day)
When you say that you should use center ball as much as possible, you ARE limiting yourself to centerball axis...
You should not favor anything but what makes the most sense for that shot and gives the highest probability of success.
If you are favoring one over the other simply because you aren't as capable of using spin, then you need to WORK on using spin...
The best choice for shape should not be dictated by your skill in executing it...If it is, then that's something you need to work on.
It's as simple as that.
If you're making a shot selection that favors center axis over side spin for any reason other than it's the best choice for that situation(table layout wise, not skill of shot wise), you're doing it wrong and it's time to learn and or work on some things.
Jaden
Again, this is based on someone being at close to a maxed out skill level NOT using side spin...
I taught the person who is starting to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best, rotation players in Colorado and I didn't let him strike a ball at all for two months of learning, I didn't let him use draw and follow for 4 months, and didn't let him use side spin for 6-9 months. (This was playing and practicing 8-12 hours a day)
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You still don't get what others are saying, and I don't think you even want to. Be sure to tell most of the top Chinese players that they are doing it wrong.
Sure I do...
One, I doubt you have a clue what the chinese players are or aren't doing.
Two, sure I do, it's pretty hard not to understand the meaning of "Avoid using side spin unless you have to".
I'm pretty sure that means use center axis whenever you can...
That's foolish, there are lots of times you can use center ball that it's better to use side spin.
Jaden
p.s. Even if the chinese players ARE using little to no side spin even when it would benefit them, are you trying to tell me the current chinese and taipei players are better than Efren in his prime?
You still don't get what others are saying, and I don't think you even want to. Be sure to tell most of the top Chinese players that they are doing it wrong.
One, I doubt you have a clue what the chinese players are or aren't doing.
Two, sure I do, it's pretty hard not to understand the meaning of "Avoid using side spin unless you have to".
I'm pretty sure that means use center axis whenever you can...
That's foolish, there are lots of times you can use center ball that it's better to use side spin.
Jaden
p.s. Even if the chinese players ARE using little to no side spin even when it would benefit them, are you trying to tell me the current chinese and taipei players are better than Efren in his prime?
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Like I said, you don't want to understand it. You contradict yourself and don't even know it, then try to use a strawman argument of ONE person to bolster your claim.
p.s.- Efren also had a pump handle stroke for a long time, make sure you emulate that too.
hard or kind of hard shouts
For as long as I can remember I have played shots that are not straight in
with a little os unless I had to use inside for position. I shoot the game ball
using a little os. I can't remember when this became the norm, it just
seems I always did it. I grew up playing on Gandys and GC's. The Diamond
tables of today seem much harder than GC's. Shots that I could fire in will
sometimes pop out, and if it is humid it gets real tough. I am going to shoot
some tough shots with os, is and center and see which is I pocket the most
with. Not impossible shots just tough. I like to have what I think of as my
out shot. Just cinch this ball and I know I'm out. It is sometimes the one ball
( or whatever) playing 9 or 10 ball the way the rest are sitting I know
if I make it I'm out. Unless it is some case where I have to do something
special I can play most shots with a little os. I always thought this was the
most accurate, but I'm going to check. Another thing I used to do was just
throw the balls out and shoot random hard shots, no position just make it.
This is really hard because most of the time you get in line and have a lot of
easy or pretty easy shots. But try this it is really hard to make one tough
shot after another. So I'm going to see which I pocket the most with, and
that is the way I will start shooting my out shot or game ball, MAYBE.
jack
Free SJD
For as long as I can remember I have played shots that are not straight in
with a little os unless I had to use inside for position. I shoot the game ball
using a little os. I can't remember when this became the norm, it just
seems I always did it. I grew up playing on Gandys and GC's. The Diamond
tables of today seem much harder than GC's. Shots that I could fire in will
sometimes pop out, and if it is humid it gets real tough. I am going to shoot
some tough shots with os, is and center and see which is I pocket the most
with. Not impossible shots just tough. I like to have what I think of as my
out shot. Just cinch this ball and I know I'm out. It is sometimes the one ball
( or whatever) playing 9 or 10 ball the way the rest are sitting I know
if I make it I'm out. Unless it is some case where I have to do something
special I can play most shots with a little os. I always thought this was the
most accurate, but I'm going to check. Another thing I used to do was just
throw the balls out and shoot random hard shots, no position just make it.
This is really hard because most of the time you get in line and have a lot of
easy or pretty easy shots. But try this it is really hard to make one tough
shot after another. So I'm going to see which I pocket the most with, and
that is the way I will start shooting my out shot or game ball, MAYBE.
jack
Free SJD
You don't even argue...
You just spout nonsense and hope people listen.
Please, show me where and how I contradict myself or in WHAT way I used a straw man argument.
Jaden
You just spout nonsense and hope people listen.
Please, show me where and how I contradict myself or in WHAT way I used a straw man argument.
Jaden
The thing that I think a lot of amateur players don't get is that you just can't turn it on and off like a light switch, as I posted before. Players will develop tendencies, and those tendencies morph into styles of play.
It's unrealistic to think that a player will analyze a shot to the extent of saying --- well I can accomplish this on the center axis so I will do that instead of spin the ball, (which they would much rather do,) because I don't have to account for squirt and swerve in this shot, therefore making it a higher probability for success.
Tendencies become a complete mindset, which includes stroke timing and style. As you progress in your game, you will tend towards one style or the other. It's inevitable.
I think it would do teachers good to realize that this is reality. If a student likes to spin the cue ball, even though they miss a lot, help them develop it rather than force them back to the center axis. I'm not saying abandon the center axis. That would be ridiculous, but work with them. They obviously love using spin and when you love it, that's when you can become really good at something.
It's unrealistic to think that a player will analyze a shot to the extent of saying --- well I can accomplish this on the center axis so I will do that instead of spin the ball, (which they would much rather do,) because I don't have to account for squirt and swerve in this shot, therefore making it a higher probability for success.
Tendencies become a complete mindset, which includes stroke timing and style. As you progress in your game, you will tend towards one style or the other. It's inevitable.
I think it would do teachers good to realize that this is reality. If a student likes to spin the cue ball, even though they miss a lot, help them develop it rather than force them back to the center axis. I'm not saying abandon the center axis. That would be ridiculous, but work with them. They obviously love using spin and when you love it, that's when you can become really good at something.
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When I play position and if I do it correctly, I know what spin (or no spin) I am going to use on the next ball before I shoot the first ball.
If everything works, all my shots will be shot with as little spin as possible. If my next shot can't be done with little or no spin, I play position so that I will have the angle that will allow me to use the spin that will work.
If everything works, all my shots will be shot with as little spin as possible. If my next shot can't be done with little or no spin, I play position so that I will have the angle that will allow me to use the spin that will work.