Centerball...haters gonna hate

[throne4]

I think alot of the confusion on this thread comes from the fact we are talking about spin to pocket balls. I play at a Master level and 90% plus of all the shots I shoot in rotation games do not require any spin to make. Spin enters the equation primarily to play shape on your next ball which in turn can be because you lost position in the first place. Now that your playing position with spin, then the pocketing of the ball with spin needs to be second nature.

 

[j_zippel]

The thing that I think a lot of amateur players don't get is that you just can't turn it on and off like a light switch, as I posted before. Players will develop tendencies, and those tendencies morph into styles of play.

It's unrealistic to think that a player will analyze a shot to the extent of saying --- well I can accomplish this on the center axis so I will do that instead of spin the ball, (which they would much rather do,) because I don't have to account for squirt and swerve in this shot, therefore making it a higher probability for success.

Tendencies become a complete mindset, which includes stroke timing and style. As you progress in your game, you will tend towards one style or the other. It's inevitable.

I think it would do teachers good to realize that this is reality. If a student likes to spin the cue ball, even though they miss a lot, help them develop it rather than force them back to the center axis. I'm not saying abandon the center axis. That would be ridiculous, but work with them. They obviously love using spin and when you love it, that's when you can become really good at something.

I get the feeling you have lots to teach, and can teach with an open mind making it easier for players to understand you and enjoy their own style. Timing and Tenancies are two things to be very aware of, I enjoy your posts, keep it up my friend.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I think some people are forgetting a simple fact.

When sticking near the vertical axis, the cue ball does all the work.

 

[Straightpool_99]

When you say that you should use center ball as much as possible, you ARE limiting yourself to centerball axis...

You should not favor anything but what makes the most sense for that shot and gives the highest probability of success.

If you are favoring one over the other simply because you aren't as capable of using spin, then you need to WORK on using spin...

The best choice for shape should not be dictated by your skill in executing it...If it is, then that's something you need to work on.

It's as simple as that.

If you're making a shot selection that favors center axis over side spin for any reason other than it's the best choice for that situation(table layout wise, not skill of shot wise), you're doing it wrong and it's time to learn and or work on some things.

Jaden

Again, this is based on someone being at close to a maxed out skill level NOT using side spin...

I taught the person who is starting to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best, rotation players in Colorado and I didn't let him strike a ball at all for two months of learning, I didn't let him use draw and follow for 4 months, and didn't let him use side spin for 6-9 months. (This was playing and practicing 8-12 hours a day)

I don't understand why anyone would argue against this? It makes perfect sense and it's supported by the clear evidence of simply watching the pros and very skilled players play. It's even more true in "real world" conditions, worn cloth, sticky balls, less than bouncy rails etc. that you will find in your typical pool hall. Even very good poolhalls don't have brand new cloth and super hot rails all the time, like they do in the major championships. Watch the money games from the Phillipines. Tell me they use center ball mostly. Arguing with some people is like arguing with the wall. They won't give an inch, or even admit that the other side may have a point.

There is no strawman here. People are saying to use centerball unless sidespin is absolutely necessary. What do you get from that? To me that's saying that you should avoid sidespin as much as possible. I don't think that's what top players are doing, at least it's not what I'm seeing when I watch them play. The only player for which I'd say this is accurate is Yang. That's the list. If there are more Taiwanese players doing this, then fine, I'll concede that as well. That doesn't change my stance at all.

All I know for sure is that I won't beat the local pro/shortstop at my poolhall using center ball only, or in limited amounts. To win I have to play the game as perfectly as I'm capable of, which includes using sidespin a lot to give ideal angles, to be able to stroke the ball softly and in a controlled manner. To most people it doesnt' matter one iota what the taiwanese are doing in laboratory perfect tournament conditions. They want to beat the local king of the hill, win their (sigh) APA tournaments or whatever and they want to have fun playing the game. Try to play perfect position, use the whole ball and forget what everyone else is saying. Forget everything I say as well, just try playing this way a little bit, a day or two even. Then you have your whole life to bore everyone to tears by playing centerball and then safe when you get out of position (which you will).

 

[ENGLISH!]

Being able to shoot consistently with spin is a high level of play. It takes loads and loads of practice. So how does a player become a spin player? It starts with a player who plays close to the center and commits to expanding his or her horizons outward on the cue ball. Nobody starts playing pool by spinning balls.

It's an evolution, not a flaw. It only becomes a flaw when the player's success rate changes for the worse.

Players will often develop a preference based on the type of game they prefer, or the game they played as they developed. Rotation experts like Reyes for example, tend to prefer spinning the ball. Reyes also had to endure humid table conditions in the Philippines for many years. Allison Fisher may look like an exception when she plays 9-Ball, as she prefers to punch the ball, but it makes perfect sense, as her roots are in snooker.

The only way to truly understand how it feels to be a spin player is to step outside your comfort zone and practice spinning balls. Most amateur players never push past the part when they start missing shots. They immediately go back to their comfort zone.

But beware ---- Once you start, you may never want to stop because you will be able to do things that almost don't make sense. Ask the great rotation players and they'll tell you.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Good Post Fran.

I started using english at 13 perhaps because I saw the elderly gentleman, from whom I stole much, using it & as you say, doing things that my Dad, who introduced me to the game, simply did not, & could not do. Seeing what that elderly gentleman did
encouraged me to want to learn how to do those things too.

As a 13 year old, I simply said to myself, 'if that old man can do it. I'm sure I can learn how to do it too.' No one
discouraged me from trying to learn. To me one way is like replicating the creations of others by painting by numbers while the other is like creating one's own small masterpieces.

Again, Good Post.

Best Wishes,

 

[Straightpool_99]

I think some people are forgetting a simple fact.

When sticking near the vertical axis, the cue ball does all the work.

That makes ZERO sense. The more you stick to the vertical center axis of the ball, the harder you will have to strike the cueball to get it where you want. If you want to argue for center ball you'd have to use this argument in reverse like this "Sticking near the vertical axis, it's you doing all the work, thus you have more control". I don't agree with this, but at least it makes sense.

 

[Jaden]

And what about what your opponent leaves you???

I think alot of the confusion on this thread comes from the fact we are talking about spin to pocket balls. I play at a Master level and 90% plus of all the shots I shoot in rotation games do not require any spin to make. Spin enters the equation primarily to play shape on your next ball which in turn can be because you lost position in the first place. Now that your playing position with spin, then the pocketing of the ball with spin needs to be second nature.

Pool is not a game against yourself. You are coming to the table from a random break and from opponent leaves...You don't get to only play from where you leave yourself.

You could have perfect position on every shot you shoot (no one does) and still lose because your opponent left you a shot that you have a better chance getting on the next ball right by using inside follow rather than tangent line stun.

If you use tangent stun, clip another ball and get hooked you're screwed where as if you used inside follow there would be no chance of getting hooked.

Or you're shooting a shot into the side at a slight angle and you can follow off the foot rail on center axis or you can draw with inside to get shape and you hit a ball on the foot rail and stop on the foot rail, where as the inside draw allows you to bring the draw angle inside and get perfect shape without chancing hitting a ball and scratching or stopping against the rail and being screwed.

There are a thousand shots that are makable with center axis that might be better to shoot with a tad bit of inside/outside or extreme outside/inside to give you a better chance of position.

I've already stated that I don't believe in using spin for anything but position, except in rare circumstance where you don't have enough ball showing and need to throw it in, or reverse spin a bank or what have you.

Most people, even some advanced players, have NO idea whatsoever how intricate and involved some of the game is and what you can do...

I can't even count how many times players have said to me "I didn't think that shot was makable". To which I usually reply, "It wasn't, I MADE it makable".

All of those "unmakable" shots are only makable because of side spin, so to hear people advocate avoiding side spin chaps my hide because if someone listens to those suggestions, they WILL be limiting their game.

(Once you to get to the right level) you should be working on being just as comfortable using two and a half tips of inside follow from 6 feet as shooting a two foot stop shot.

Anyone who advocates for anything else, I'll tell them, they don't know enough about the game, I don't care who they are.

Now, are they REALLY going to be just as comfortable? Probably not.

However, with things like BHE and such, it is possible to get REALLY close.

How comfortable they can get depends on them and that is something that they'll need to weigh in their shot selections for themselves.

I just can't stand people carte blanche advocating using center ball whenever possible, and I will scream to the high heavens against it when anyone does.

Jaden

 

[ENGLISH!]

That makes ZERO sense. The more you stick to the vertical center axis of the ball, the harder you will have to strike the cueball to get it where you want. If you want to argue for center ball you'd have to use this argument in reverse like this "Sticking near the vertical axis, it's you doing all the work, thus you have more control". I don't agree with this, but at least it makes sense.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

You're pounding your head against a wall. Once some have swallowed the Kool Aide it's rather difficult if not impossible to get them back to seeing reality.

Some maintain an open mind while other's minds gets closed by the Kool Aide.

You Have a Good Day & Stay & Shoot Well.

 

[throne4]

Pool is not a game against yourself. You are coming to the table from a random break and from opponent leaves...You don't get to only play from where you leave yourself.

You could have perfect position on every shot you shoot (no one does) and still lose because your opponent left you a shot that you have a better chance getting on the next ball right by using inside follow rather than tangent line stun.

If you use tangent stun, clip another ball and get hooked you're screwed where as if you used inside follow there would be no chance of getting hooked.

Or you're shooting a shot into the side at a slight angle and you can follow off the foot rail on center axis or you can draw with inside to get shape and you hit a ball on the foot rail and stop on the foot rail, where as the inside draw allows you to bring the draw angle inside and get perfect shape without chancing hitting a ball and scratching or stopping against the rail and being screwed.

There are a thousand shots that are makable with center axis that might be better to shoot with a tad bit of inside/outside or extreme outside/inside to give you a better chance of position.

I've already stated that I don't believe in using spin for anything but position, except in rare circumstance where you don't have enough ball showing and need to throw it in, or reverse spin a bank or what have you.

Most people, even some advanced players, have NO idea whatsoever how intricate and involved some of the game is and what you can do...

I can't even count how many times players have said to me "I didn't think that shot was makable". To which I usually reply, "It wasn't, I MADE it makable".

All of those "unmakable" shots are only makable because of side spin, so to hear people advocate avoiding side spin chaps my hide because if someone listens to those suggestions, they WILL be limiting their game.

(Once you to get to the right level) you should be working on being just as comfortable using two and a half tips of inside follow as shooting a two foot stop shot.

Anyone who advocates for anything else, I'll tell them, they don't know enough about the game, I don't care who they are.

Now, are they REALLY going to be just as comfortable? Probably not.

However, with things like BHE and such, it is possible to get REALLY close.

How comfortable they can get depends on them and that is something that they'll need to weigh in their shot selections for themselves.

I just can't stand people carte blanche advocating using center ball whenever possible, and I will scream to the high heavens against it when anyone does.

Jaden

Sorry Jaden, I disagree with this. I am not by any means advocating not playing spin. but you are stating playing spin on most shots and that is playing the game backwards. I have read many comments about pros and spinning the ball. Again I disagree. If you watch and pay attention to pro matches on the vast majority pf player ( there are exceptions) they play at least 50% or more of there shots during a rack with center axis. Why is this???? Because it is much easier to control the speed of the cue ball without spin.... Period

 

[ENGLISH!]

I lived in Florida a few years ago and played in an 18 + up league. I saw some 90+ pitching from time to time. I also saw some rockets off of aluminum bats come my way at third base and lived to talk about it!

Learning to play with spin is a natural progression for all players as they develop their games. How much and when to use it comes with experience. Playing close to center is a good idea if you're a lower level or novice player, but the game becomes a lot more interesting if you learn how to make the cue ball listen.

Best,
Mike

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[ENGLISH!]

Depending on conditions you have to be versatile...

I am a finesse player by choice, but under some conditions, you have to become a power stroker.

When humidity is high or cloth sucks or table has rolls, you have to adjust, but when possible I will always be a finesse player using type of spin and amount of spin as needed.

Not becoming comfortable using spin and having it available limits what shot selections you have and I disagree with anyone saying that it's better to limit your options.

With BHE and LD tech, there's just no excuse to limit yourself to center ball axis.

It seems that those who advocate such have a fear of using side spin.

ME, I will setup the same shot and shoot it with every type of english ten times each and I doubt there's anyone that can predict accurately which shots will be missed the most(including myself), although I doubt I'd miss more than two of any of the types of shots.

Having that ability is not something that comes from shying away from shots outside of the center axis.

Jaden

p.s. There are stages to learning that can help your progression in ability and using center ball only, and then only follw and drw until you become proficient at doing so is a good method for learning. Once you become proficientat doing so though, it is foolish to not then practice, learn and PLAY using side spin to learn what it can do for you and what shot options it can open up for you.

It gives you a higher skill level and once you become proficient with side spin and learn what it offers you, you can decide what shots to use it on with an informed insight as to risk/reward.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[ENGLISH!]

When you say that you should use center ball as much as possible, you ARE limiting yourself to centerball axis...

You should not favor anything but what makes the most sense for that shot and gives the highest probability of success.

If you are favoring one over the other simply because you aren't as capable of using spin, then you need to WORK on using spin...

The best choice for shape should not be dictated by your skill in executing it...If it is, then that's something you need to work on.

It's as simple as that.

If you're making a shot selection that favors center axis over side spin for any reason other than it's the best choice for that situation(table layout wise, not skill of shot wise), you're doing it wrong and it's time to learn and or work on some things.

Jaden

Again, this is based on someone being at close to a maxed out skill level NOT using side spin...

I taught the person who is starting to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best, rotation players in Colorado and I didn't let him strike a ball at all for two months of learning, I didn't let him use draw and follow for 4 months, and didn't let him use side spin for 6-9 months. (This was playing and practicing 8-12 hours a day)

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

You're a tough coach. I might have quit on you.:wink:

 

[Jaden]

First, I am NOT advocating using side spin on most shots..

Sorry Jaden, I disagree with this. I am not by any means advocating not playing spin. but you are stating playing spin on most shots and that is playing the game backwards. I have read many comments about pros and spinning the ball. Again I disagree. If you watch and pay attention to pro matches on the vast majority pf player ( there are exceptions) they play at least 50% or more of there shots during a rack with center axis. Why is this???? Because it is much easier to control the speed of the cue ball without spin.... Period

What I said is that most shots can be IMPROVED using some side spin, I didn't say you SHOULD use side spin on most or all shots.

What I DID say is that you should be just as comfortable using spin as not.

What you choose to do is an individual decision that the table should typically dictate.

I had posted a video of me running out a rack of 8 ball using side spin on EVERY shot a while back when a question about the efficacy of BHE came up.

I did a LIVE stream of me showcasing BHE where I didn't know what the english to be used was going to be until AFTER I got set down into the shot and a caller told me what english to use.

It absolutely is possible to shoot any shot with spin as accurately as shooting it center axis.

I mark the pivot point on my shaft with a sharpie so that I can pivot from that point more consistently even when I can't bridge from that point. Plus, a single point marking the pivot point wil keep the orientation of the cue the same from shot to shot.

Jaden

 

[ENGLISH!]

The thing that I think a lot of amateur players don't get is that you just can't turn it on and off like a light switch, as I posted before. Players will develop tendencies, and those tendencies morph into styles of play.

It's unrealistic to think that a player will analyze a shot to the extent of saying --- well I can accomplish this on the center axis so I will do that instead of spin the ball, (which they would much rather do,) because I don't have to account for squirt and swerve in this shot, therefore making it a higher probability for success.

Tendencies become a complete mindset, which includes stroke timing and style. As you progress in your game, you will tend towards one style or the other. It's inevitable.

I think it would do teachers good to realize that this is reality. If a student likes to spin the cue ball, even though they miss a lot, help them develop it rather than force them back to the center axis. I'm not saying abandon the center axis. That would be ridiculous, but work with them. They obviously love using spin and when you love it, that's when you can become really good at something.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

I don't care how some 'take' it or read into it.

I am going to say it again.

'You're Better than Most'.

I'll now add that from what I've seen here on AZB,
You're one of the Best here on AZB & I would conclude outside of AZB as well.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think alot of the confusion on this thread comes from the fact we are talking about spin to pocket balls. I play at a Master level and 90% plus of all the shots I shoot in rotation games do not require any spin to make. Spin enters the equation primarily to play shape on your next ball which in turn can be because you lost position in the first place. Now that your playing position with spin, then the pocketing of the ball with spin needs to be second nature.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[ENGLISH!]

I get the feeling you have lots to teach, and can teach with an open mind making it easier for players to understand you and enjoy their own style. Timing and Tenancies are two things to be very aware of, I enjoy your posts, keep it up my friend.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[Jaden]

yeah it;s kind of funny.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

You're a tough coach. I might have quit on you.:wink:

he tells this story all the time.

We call each other brother (1. because we were brothers in arms, and 2. because we look alike and no one ever believed us that we weren't brothers when we went into a pool hall).

In 2003, I was leaving the ship we were on at the time and he asked me where I was going. I said to watch a movie and asked if he wanted to come.

He did. It was pool hall junkies.

After the movie, I told him I was going to the pool hall and said to him (yes I know the problems with the movie, but he didn't play pool at all at the time) "Do you want to learn how to play like that? Cause I WILL teach you, you just have to agree to be dedicated and listen to what I tell you".

He said yes, and he followed through. Most wouldn't have and there are ways that aren't necessarily QUITE as effective where people don't have to go to such extremes.

The hardest thing to deal with is when people develop bad habits from the start or have been playing for years and develop bad habits (he hadn't played more than a couple of times with friends at bars his whole life at that point).

The biggest stumbling block to playing this game is lack of knowledge and understanding.

The knowledge can be given. The understanding has to be earned.

Bad habits are difficult to over come but can be with both knowledge and understanding.

Jaden

 

[ENGLISH!]

Pool is not a game against yourself. You are coming to the table from a random break and from opponent leaves...You don't get to only play from where you leave yourself.

You could have perfect position on every shot you shoot (no one does) and still lose because your opponent left you a shot that you have a better chance getting on the next ball right by using inside follow rather than tangent line stun.

If you use tangent stun, clip another ball and get hooked you're screwed where as if you used inside follow there would be no chance of getting hooked.

Or you're shooting a shot into the side at a slight angle and you can follow off the foot rail on center axis or you can draw with inside to get shape and you hit a ball on the foot rail and stop on the foot rail, where as the inside draw allows you to bring the draw angle inside and get perfect shape without chancing hitting a ball and scratching or stopping against the rail and being screwed.

There are a thousand shots that are makable with center axis that might be better to shoot with a tad bit of inside/outside or extreme outside/inside to give you a better chance of position.

I've already stated that I don't believe in using spin for anything but position, except in rare circumstance where you don't have enough ball showing and need to throw it in, or reverse spin a bank or what have you.

Most people, even some advanced players, have NO idea whatsoever how intricate and involved some of the game is and what you can do...

I can't even count how many times players have said to me "I didn't think that shot was makable". To which I usually reply, "It wasn't, I MADE it makable".

All of those "unmakable" shots are only makable because of side spin, so to hear people advocate avoiding side spin chaps my hide because if someone listens to those suggestions, they WILL be limiting their game.

(Once you to get to the right level) you should be working on being just as comfortable using two and a half tips of inside follow from 6 feet as shooting a two foot stop shot.

Anyone who advocates for anything else, I'll tell them, they don't know enough about the game, I don't care who they are.

Now, are they REALLY going to be just as comfortable? Probably not.

However, with things like BHE and such, it is possible to get REALLY close.

How comfortable they can get depends on them and that is something that they'll need to weigh in their shot selections for themselves.

I just can't stand people carte blanche advocating using center ball whenever possible, and I will scream to the high heavens against it when anyone does.

Jaden

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[ENGLISH!]

What I said is that most shots can be IMPROVED using some side spin, I didn't say you SHOULD use side spin on most or all shots.

What I DID say is that you should be just as comfortable using spin as not.

What you choose to do is an individual decision that the table should typically dictate.

I had posted a video of me running out a rack of 8 ball using side spin on EVERY shot a while back when a question about the efficacy of BHE came up.

I did a LIVE stream of me showcasing BHE where I didn't know what the english to be used was going to be until AFTER I got set down into the shot and a caller told me what english to use.

It absolutely is possible to shoot any shot with spin as accurately as shooting it center axis.

I mark the pivot point on my shaft with a sharpie so that I can pivot from that point more consistently even when I can't bridge from that point. Plus, a single point marking the pivot point wil keep the orientation of the cue the same from shot to shot.

Jaden

I think it is rather obvious that I agree with you. I've 'never' really used BHE with the pivot point of the cue in mind. I am more of a feel based player & less 'mechanical'.

That really does not matter but you brought up a couple of points that interest me.

Not being able to bridge as desired & pivoting at the pivot point of the cue.

I think I understand this, but could you give a brief explanation, if not here possibly through a PM.

Thanks in advance if you're willing.

 

[ENGLISH!]

he tells this story all the time.

We call each other brother (1. because we were brothers in arms, and 2. because we look alike and no one ever believed us that we weren't brothers when we went into a pool hall).

In 2003, I was leaving the ship we were on at the time and he asked me where I was going. I said to watch a movie and asked if he wanted to come.

He did. It was pool hall junkies.

After the movie, I told him I was going to the pool hall and said to him (yes I know the problems with the movie, but he didn't play pool at all at the time) "Do you want to learn how to play like that? Cause I WILL teach you, you just have to agree to be dedicated and listen to what I tell you".

He said yes, and he followed through. Most wouldn't have and there are ways that aren't necessarily QUITE as effective where people don't have to go to such extremes.

The hardest thing to deal with is when people develop bad habits from the start or have been playing for years and develop bad habits (he hadn't played more than a couple of times with friends at bars his whole life at that point).

The biggest stumbling block to playing this game is lack of knowledge and understanding.

The knowledge can be given. The understanding has to be earned.

Bad habits are difficult to over come but can be with both knowledge and understanding.

Jaden

It's also good to have an open mind & be willing to listen 'like a sponge' & learn. That said, the individual is the one responsible to discern when one is possibly being given bad info. That is not always easy to do when one is less knowledgeable, but we have a sixth sense that we should perhaps follow more often than denying it.

I hope you see from where I'm coming with that.

You Be, Stay, & Shoot Well.

PS Please see my request in my other post.