LD/laminated first

[Drop The Rock]

In light of the recent drama I wanted to shift gears to something thought provoking.

Humans like what they already know/have experienced. Alternatives and change don't go over that well, despite the "new" sensations. So with that thought in mind, it is my belief that if laminated shafts lead the market from the early days until now and solid shafts were the new tech, that everything would be the same except flipped.

Let's just say custom cue makers, Schon, Joss etc. only offer laminated shafts and few offered solid. Predator, Tiger and OB were the revolutionists with solid shafts. I think the markets would be that same. What matters is what we are introduced to early and what is popular. There would be converts to solid maple and older generations that praise what they have been using for years.

Whether deflection is the same or not doesn't matter because the biggest complaint I hear is the feel and solid shafts can be LD or LS or whatever you physicists want to call them.

The human condition is what makes the current solid shaft users gripe about laminated shafts and the newer generations praise them.

I predict that in ten years there will be more custom cue makers who offer laminated shafts and that eventually, solid maple will be looked at the same way wooden clubs are looked at in golf.

What else can you think of that you have that the same way? The oilfield is notorious for this and is extremely difficult to change or "advance." Alternate endings in movies are refreshing but ultimately the original is my favorite. Recipes can be the same way because you want things to be "just like momma used to make."

Thoughts?

Btw this isn't a this vs that thread so please don't go there.

 

[dnschmidt]

My belief is that cues and the differences between them are vastly overrated. Efren could play with a broom handle. The same is true with golf clubs. Players can play with anything. It's not the equipment it's the player. Much ado about nothing is how I see it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

My belief is that cues and the differences between them are vastly overrated. Efren could play with a broom handle. The same is true with golf clubs. Players can play with anything. It's not the equipment it's the player. Much ado about nothing is how I see it.

No offense intended, but then why did nearly every pro golfer make the switches to the newer more high tech equipment?

I agree with you that a good player can play rather well with anything but when you get to the high high levels it can come down to one shot that makes the difference between winning & losing & by that I mean one bad shot.

That's why pro golfers, tennis players, etc. make the switches. They switch to what can save them from that one bad hit or minimize the bad effects of it.

If pros are willing to switch to technology why then should we lesser players not do the same.

I just yesterday talked to a very very good player that has played with the same Palmer Shaft for more than 25 years who is a little over a week into a new Predator 314. It's driving him nuts but he is determined to stick with it because he knows it can ultimately help him given his age & recent eye issues.

I switched a few years ago for much the same reason. I tried going back to my old cue a while back & there is no way.

I hope you can see & understand my points.

I would recommend that anyone new to or not long into the game go to an LD shaft. The benefits are there, so why cut one's self off from them, for what reason?

Best Wishes.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rock,

I think I understand the point that you are trying to make but reality won't let it float. Solid maple simply can not be near as LD as the LD cues. That is, not given the same dimensions & with the same flex or non flex.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Rock,

I think I understand the point that you are trying to make but reality won't let it float. Solid maple simply can not be near as LD as the LD cues. That is, not given the same dimensions & with the same flex or non flex.

Best 2 Ya.

Mezz got really really close. Part of the point though is that there are those who will resist change whether it's an improvement or not. There is a reason most pros play LD.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mezz got really really close. Part of the point though is that there are those who will resist change whether it's an improvement or not. There is a reason most pros play LD.

Yes. Most people do not like change for any reason. They are the one's that will keep doing the same thing & expect a different result.

Whenever I changed golf clubs, I always keep the old ones until I was very sure that the new clubs were an improvement or at least just as good as the old ones. After an appropriate amount of time & use I made a decision to stay with the new or go back to the old.

One will never improve or get any better if one does not change in some shape or form. Changing equipment can be the easiest thing to do & will sometimes affect other changes because of the change in equipment.

I will never forget a soft ball game I played where the pitcher was painting the inside corner of the plate. I lined out twice to the left fielder right at him to where all he did was raise his glove to catch the ball. I was using a 34 1/2" bat. So... on my 3rd. at bat I used a 30" bat figuring I could drop in front of him. This time he took one step forward & caught the ball with his glove down instead of up, BUT it was a change of outcome even if not the one for which I had hoped.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I predict that in ten years there will be more custom cue makers who offer laminated shafts and that eventually, solid maple will be looked at the same way wooden clubs are looked at in golf.

LD shafts do not have to be laminated
Good luck with your prediction .
LD shafts have been around for 20 years or so now .
Low end-mass shafts were around before Predator .
Flat laminated shafts were around before Predator.

Pool tables are still the same size . You don't need to drive 300 yards to shoot great .
IN FACT, MOST PLAYER HIT THE BALL TOO HARD.
Imagine that .
In essence, you need to hit the ball softer and you need a cue with very good feedback/resonance to play better . Having good cueball action and lower squirt do not hurt, of course.
ANY competent cue maker can made an oversized ferrule tenon and drill it if you want.
Any good cuemaker can also made that w/out drilling a hole . With the right ferrule material and configuration, there is no reason why someone wouldn't win a world title with it.
Ko and SVB just played for the world 9. Did either one play with a hollowed out shaft ? Surprisingly, both had 1" ferrules.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Rock,

I think I understand the point that you are trying to make but reality won't let it float. Solid maple simply can not be near as LD as the LD cues. That is, not given the same dimensions & with the same flex or non flex.

Best 2 Ya.

Solid as in NO LAMINATIONS or no hole at the front ?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Solid as in NO LAMINATIONS or no hole at the front ?

I was thinking none bored out solid.

The McDermott G-core has a drilled out front 7 inches, I think. While the 'i' series has the full length drilled out. Both are 'solid' non laminated with a carbon tube inserted.

I have an I2 & it 'feel's very much like solid maple but IMO squirts more than Predators & OBs.

Thanks for the clarifications.

PS Is Shane playing with the Cuetec 360? That is hollow 4 pcs. pie built shaft.

 

[Runner]

My belief is that cues and the differences between them are vastly overrated. Efren could play with a broom handle. The same is true with golf clubs. Players can play with anything. It's not the equipment it's the player. Much ado about nothing is how I see it.

I get what the OP is talking about... Efren was killing it with that $15 cue.. no LD, nada, just a really nice straight grain shaft.
I watched Fred Couples play 8 holes with some original Wilson Pro Staffs, persimmon driver... still Freddy, killin' it.

But... pros are always looking for that something extra, a little edge on the competition.

Let's say that all you had were LD/laminated shafts... then the 'mojo' of the old school regular shaft becomes what people 'think' is missing... like a 40 year old Hasselblad lens... it's not a modern design, but oh, that's what Ansel used...:smile:

 

[JoeyInCali]

I was thinking none bored out solid.

The McDermott G-core has a drilled out front 7 inches, I think. While the 'i' series has the full length drilled out. Both are 'solid' non laminated with a carbon tube inserted.

I have an I2 & it 'feel's very much like solid maple but IMO squirts more than Predators & OBs.

Thanks for the clarifications.

PS Is Shane playing with the Cuetec 360? That is hollow 4 pcs. pie built shaft.

And lamination have nothing to do with cue ball deflection though.
And that synthetic tube might actually cause more cue ball squirt .
It's probably there to make the shaft more stable .

I think if a pro can play with a 12MM tip, a hollowed end gives him no advantage.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I don't know if the LD shaft makes such a difference, but I believe quality makes a huge difference. My personal prefrence is a Predator Z2, a very high quality product, IMO. A high quality shaft with a high quality tip on a cue butt that is well balanced and feels good in the hand, isn't that what we're all after.

 

[Sealegs50]

Marketing hype might be responsible for initial sales. But converted attitudes come from longer term experience from the users. I still use traditional shafts. But I respect the companies who produce cues that most players prefer. Pool needs more players who love playing. Why argue when they get what they want?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

LD shafts do not have to be laminated
Good luck with your prediction .
LD shafts have been around for 20 years or so now .
Low end-mass shafts were around before Predator .
Flat laminated shafts were around before Predator.

Pool tables are still the same size . You don't need to drive 300 yards to shoot great .
IN FACT, MOST PLAYER HIT THE BALL TOO HARD.
Imagine that .
In essence, you need to hit the ball softer and you need a cue with very good feedback/resonance to play better . Having good cueball action and lower squirt do not hurt, of course.
ANY competent cue maker can made an oversized ferrule tenon and drill it if you want.
Any good cuemaker can also made that w/out drilling a hole . With the right ferrule material and configuration, there is no reason why someone wouldn't win a world title with it.
Ko and SVB just played for the world 9. Did either one play with a hollowed out shaft ? Surprisingly, both had 1" ferrules.

Lol...Shane plays with a Cuetech R360 shaft. This is definitely a low deflection shaft. Some of the wood is replaced with some composite material to reduce deflection. Darren Appleton plays with a Predator 314 shaft. He does ok though huh?

KMRUNOUT

 

[JoeyInCali]

Lol...Shane plays with a Cuetech R360 shaft. This is definitely a low deflection shaft. Some of the wood is replaced with some composite material to reduce deflection. Darren Appleton plays with a Predator 314 shaft. He does ok though huh?

KMRUNOUT

Explain how a the composite reduces deflection ?
Is it lighter than wood ?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

And lamination have nothing to do with cue ball deflection though.
And that synthetic tube might actually cause more cue ball squirt .
It's probably there to make the shaft more stable .

I think if a pro can play with a 12MM tip, a hollowed end gives him no advantage.

It will likely give him lower cueball squirt, which in and of itself is an advantage, except in the case that said pro is so used to a regular squirt shaft, in which case it may be a disadvantage.

If your claim is that any 12mm shaft is as low deflection as a Predator 314-2, for example, I think you are mistaken. While there are a very select few solid shafts that are reasonably low deflection, the vast majority have significantly more deflection than Predator.


KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Explain how a the composite reduces deflection ?
Is it lighter than wood ?

Yes I believe that is the idea. I know for sure, for example, that the newer Meucci LD shafts (The Pro), are "solid" in so much as the part that is normally hollowed out on a LD shaft is filled with a much lighter wood. As for the Cuetec, I don't really know the exact construction methods. However, I do know that I have hit with several different R360 cues and they are definitely low deflection. Not as low as OB or Predator, but much much lower than a standard shaft.

KMRUNOUT

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yes I believe that is the idea. I know for sure, for example, that the newer Meucci LD shafts (The Pro), are "solid" in so much as the part that is normally hollowed out on a LD shaft is filled with a much lighter wood. As for the Cuetec, I don't really know the exact construction methods. However, I do know that I have hit with several different R360 cues and they are definitely low deflection. Not as low as OB or Predator, but much much lower than a standard shaft.

KMRUNOUT

And Allison Fisher won world titles with Cuetec fiberglass clad shafts .

Carbon fiber is not lighter than balsa .
All cuetec needs to do is drill a hole to make it low squirt .

A standard shaft can have many different ferrule configuration.
A long capped heavy ferrule will have the most cb squirt.

 

[Straightpool_99]

And Allison Fisher won world titles with Cuetec fiberglass clad shafts .

Carbon fiber is not lighter than balsa .
All cuetec needs to do is drill a hole to make it low squirt .

A standard shaft can have many different ferrule configuration.
A long capped heavy ferrule will have the most cb squirt.

I believe Predator has a patent on the hollowed out front end of the shaft. Maybe it expired, IDK.

 

[bdorman]

I agree that there is an attaction to New & Improved, but a product must perform to have staying power.

"Laminated" isn't the first attempt to improve a solid maple shaft. Other things have been tried: carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc. They failed because they didn't perform.

My prediction: at some point in the near future someone will develope a nano-particle-shaft in which the buyer will be able to specify the exact characteristics he/she wants in the shaft. Some people will like it, some will hate it. If enough players like it, it will become a standard product.