Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[Poolplaya9]

As for falsehoods sorry I have not posted one single thing in this thread that is not correct.

You say it finds the correct aim line. That is false. Still waiting for any legitimate evidence whatsoever. Saying you make balls is no proof because your subconscious does that part. Hell, half the time when we try to intentionally rattle a ball to stall or whatever our subconscious takes over and puts in dead center pocket. Where is your evidence for the correct aim line after 20 years of being asked? Everyone is still waiting.

As for explaining CTE or any other method, it has been explained and it has been proven to be beneficial.

It has never been explained in enough detail that people couldn't do it significantly differently. And guess what, they all do it significantly differently, sometimes complete opposite on things, yet all claim it is perfect. Of course it doesn't matter what they do, what changes you make, what is different because the subconscious just corrects for it anyway. Your system leaves the gaps where the feel comes in. You can't and won't fill in those gaps and you nor anyone else ever has or ever will be able to give a very precise and detailed instructional on CTE because feel is a big part of it.

 

[JB Cases]

Detail? What detail? That is the whole thing about your CTE "system". There is no detail. Everything is vague and lacks so much detail that it leaves room for everybody to do things differently, and they all do, yet they still all claim it works. There is no detail, and that is the problem. There is no detail because you have to leave room for feel to be used to adjust for its inaccuracies, otherwise it wouldn't "work". Detail would kill the system because it would eliminate the ability to make adjustments with feel and then it wouldn't "work". If you actually had an objective system that found the correct aim line, you could explain how to do it in a way that was so detailed that it eliminated any vagueness that left all that room for the adjustments by feel to be made, and eliminated the ability for everyone who is using it to be doing it differently than the next guy. There is no detail.

But if you disagree, then go ahead and provide us the exact and detailed explanation for the following, and make sure your instructions have enough detail so that it doesn't leave room for people to use feel with it or for everyone to be able to be doing it differently.

Precisely explain all the steps in detail you would need to find the correct aim line and be able to pocket the ball if you have a long shot that is a quarter ball hit cutting the object ball to the left and you have to hit it very hard with about half of maximum low and about three quarters of maximum right english to get position.

Then explain all the detailed steps of CTE that get you the correct aim line and will pocket that same shot but where you have to hit it soft with maximum left and a naturally rolling cue ball to get position.



There is some evidence that it helps some people sometimes. There is ZERO evidence that it finds the correct aim line. And in fact it can and has been proven that it does not. But in any case, you claim that there is much evidence that it works as described, and it is described as always finding the exact correct aim line, so lets hear all your evidence to substantiate that it finds the correct aim line. Nobody else has ever been able to provide a shred of evidence that it finds the correct aim line in two decades of being asked for any but maybe you have had it all along and have just been holding out. So lets hear it.

Well the first thing I would do is use cte to find the center ball shot line and then adjust as needed for the spin.

The way I would do it is to find the visual line that connects the central of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball. I would stand slightly offset to this line and then choose either an edge to quarter, half or 3/4 object ball as a second visual. I would slightly shift until both lines are visible and then come down with my bridge hand while my body makes a slight shift which guides the cue tip to center ball.

Then I would use backhand English and address the cueball with the spin I want. If I felt right about the shot using the spin and speed planned I would shoot it. If not then I would adjust slightly from the center ball shot line provided by the Cte steps.

This routine works very consistently to put me on the shot line.

Of course it also comes from practicing until the visual sight lines are clear. One does not typically see the CTE perceptions correctly When first learning it.

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[Neil]

Who cares what works and what doesn't? There is no replacement for table time IMO. Systems, whether aiming or any other form are of no use without enough time practising them. There will never be evidence of whether this time spent practising improved a player purely because they put in lots of practise or whether they improve because they spent time practising with a system.

From my experience they appeal to beginners and those looking for a way out of admitting they haven't been paying much attention to how balls react. I can get 10 new comers to pick out the ghost ball position after 5 mins of explaining it. Aiming isn't hard.

I don't see CTE as an aiming system. It is more of a PSR for getting a person aligning correctly. It sets them up so their body is aligned following some guidelines but the actual player aims the shot, CTE just gets them close enough to the line of aim for them to spot it.

Lots of players struggle with repeatable alignment, even those at the top of the pecking order. There is no shame in it, it's difficult to imagine where your grip is, hips are and so on along an imaginary line without looking at them. Feel players especially struggle with alignment. They tend to spot the line of aim and just get down and have footwork that's different shot after shot, they preach the cue ball from all kinds of different angles. There is no better or worse in these arguments. There are pros and cons for both. But people making claims like it makes them aim to centre pocket every time are living on cloud 9. I see players shopping balls in a diamond down the rail using CTE. That isn't centre pocket but I'm sure someone will develop and argument as to why it is doesn't matter and how it was the shooters fault.

I have a friend who is one of the best cueists I've seen that isn't a pro and I gave him my 1st DVD to take a look at. He was shopping balls on left right and centre and missing shots on a snooker table he would never miss. Why? Because he followed the instructions too literally. He forgot all he knew about pool and snooker and focused on what the system tells him to do. He gave it a good 6 months before he gave up. 6 months is no where near to learn real Cte, pidge! For someone of his skill level it is. He had a decent potting percentage with it, probably in the 75% region on a snooker table. He had 87% potting average in the 5 tournaments running up to me giving him the DVD. For someone with a near perfect cue action 75% is terrible IMO. He found playing with side a nightmare, this is why I say it's for beginners. You can't get anywhere near the top without using side effectively. He definitely took a step back in his level of play. Why? He had no alignment issues before. Cte caused him to align differently than he had been doing for decades. Not that he was aligning wrong with Cte it was just not what he way used to. Again, this is why I say it's for beginners or those struggling with alignment. If a newcomer doesn't know how to align then it gets then aligning a bit better.

Lastly I know I may get abuse for my post but it is how I feel regarding the matter. I don't expect people who think I'm wrong to lay down and take it, I respect people who stand up for what they believe, especially if they can do it in a logical and civil manner.

You say he had to learn to realign with CTE, which means right off the bat that he wasn't following the directions to the letter. You also state he spent 6 mo. with it, but don't clarify how much time he spent during that time period, and also don't state if he was only using CTE during that time frame.

You also state that he found using english to be a nightmare. That doesn't make any sense if he had no problem with english before. CTE is a center ball aiming system, period. If one needs to use english on a shot, he applies it the same way he always has. Nothing about using english should change because of CTE. Which again, showcases that he was not using it to the letter.

Not to mention the lame argument that it is only one persons take on it. So, according to the "rules" laid down by those against CTE, it means absolutely nothing in the conversation.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The evidence is plain as day

Not for finding the aim line is isn't. There is zero. You have some evidence that you can still pocket balls with it, which is because your subconscious adjusts for the errors of the system, but you have ZERO evidence that CTE actually finds the correct aim line itself. If you have some lets hear it.

Stan, Mohrt, and I have given detailed steps on here, and it all has fallen on deaf ears. Those posts were just plain ignored. Not giving them again.

An objective precise system can be explained very precisely. Any description has ALWAYS lacked enough detail that it allows for user adjustments based on feel, and for one person to do it differently than the next. But again, if you think you can give a detailed explanation that would not allow for everybody to be able to do it differently, and would not allow for user adjustments based on feel, lets hear it.

 

[Poolplaya9]

CTE is a center ball system. Meaning that if you want to use side spin, then yes, there will definitely be adjustments made by feel.

I still want to hear the description of the steps when using english, even if using feel is acknowledged in that case (but I don't think all CTE'ers even acknowledge using feel in that case, do they?).

He can also give the detailed instructions for the same shots exactly as I described but with center ball.

And if they are acknowledging feel for any shot with english, well then they are back in the same boat as just using feel without it, and most shots use english with most decent players.

 

[Neil]

You say it finds the correct aim line. That is false. Still waiting for any legitimate evidence whatsoever. Saying you make balls is no proof because your subconscious does that part. Hell, half the time when we try to intentionally rattle a ball to stall or whatever our subconscious takes over and puts in dead center pocket. Where is your evidence for the correct aim line after 20 years of being asked? Everyone is still waiting.



It has never been explained in enough detail that people couldn't do it significantly differently. And guess what, they all do it significantly differently, sometimes complete opposite on things, yet all claim it is perfect. Of course it doesn't matter what they do, what changes you make, what is different because the subconscious just corrects for it anyway. Your system leaves the gaps where the feel comes in. You can't and won't fill in those gaps and you nor anyone else ever has or ever will be able to give a very precise and detailed instructional on CTE because feel is a big part of it.

That's just not true. It has been explained a number of times in detail. Each time it was ignored. Not to mention that many on here have trouble following directions. Heck, many on here have trouble comprehending just what they are reading.

You keep claiming feel is a big part of it, all the while stating that you don't even know what the correct steps are to do it. Really, does that make any sense to you at all? You claim to know exactly what it is and isn't, but can't even describe yourself how to do it correctly. Yet, you claim we are the illogical ones with it, have no knowledge of it, ect.

And, with that, I am done with it. No point going on with it. Your side will never bother to actually learn what it is you spend years rallying against, and will keep on making the same B.S. arguments against it that you always do.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Well the first thing I would do is use cte to find the center ball shot line and then adjust as needed for the spin.

The way I would do it is to find the visual line that connects the central of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball. I would stand slightly offset to this line and then choose either an edge to quarter, half or 3/4 object ball as a second visual. I would slightly shift until both lines are visible and then come down with my bridge hand while my body makes a slight shift which guides the cue tip to center ball.

Then I would use backhand English and address the cueball with the spin I want. If I felt right about the shot using the spin and speed planned I would shoot it. If not then I would adjust slightly from the center ball shot line provided by the Cte steps.

This routine works very consistently to put me on the shot line.

Of course it also comes from practicing until the visual sight lines are clear. One does not typically see the CTE perceptions correctly When first learning it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

You really think those instructions are detailed enough that every person that follows them ends up doing the exact same things? You all but use the word feel in explaining how much feel you are using throughout that whole process.

And "one does not typically see the CTE perceptions correctly when first learning it" is the excuse used to try to cover for the fact that it doesn't work for people first using it because their subconscious hasn't yet learned how to adjust and correct for the new things you are doing and that are happening, just like as happens when you switch from a high to low deflection cue for example or vice versa.

 

[Neil]

I still want to hear the description of the steps when using english, even if using feel is acknowledged in that case (but I don't think all CTE'ers even acknowledge using feel in that case, do they?).

He can also give the detailed instructions for the same shots exactly as I described but with center ball.

And if they are acknowledging feel for any shot with english, well then they are back in the same boat as just using feel without it, and most shots use english with most decent players.

One last post- you amaze me. How many times has it been clearly stated that CTE is a center ball aiming system. Yet, here you are yet again claiming it is faulty because it doesn't describe how to use english. Hundreds of times it has been stated that if one desires to use english on a shot, they can use it the same way they were before.

Now you are stooping to talking about things that aren't even part of the system, and claiming the system is faulty because it's not detailed how to do it. Cte also doesn't describe how to hold the cue, how to chalk, how to stroke, how to grip the cue, what chalk or tip to use. It's simply an aiming system, period. It's not a complete playing system or magic pill like many of you want to make it out to be.

 

[Poolplaya9]

It has been explained a number of times in detail.

Show me where. It hasn't. Everything has always been so vague that if ten people try to follow the instructions, all ten are doing something different. And it HAS to be vague because there is a lot of feel involved. Show me where there are detailed enough directions that everybody who tried to follow those would be doing the exact same thing.

You keep claiming feel is a big part of it, all the while stating that you don't even know what the correct steps are to do it.

I didn't say that. I know the steps better than you in many ways. Every other step is using feel. Still waiting for any proof whatsoever that it finds the correct aim line, or a detailed explanation though. Let me know when you have either one of those things.

 

[Poolplaya9]

How many times has it been clearly stated that CTE is a center ball aiming system.

Ok so maybe I was illustrating a point that even you guys have to admit how it isn't any different than just using feel when english is being used and since that is the majority of the time even you have to concede it has no real benefit that majority of the time. I bet you still think you believe it benefits even when using english which is why I wanted to hear your explanation with it.

Still waiting for the detailed explanation of how to do those shots without english though too. Make sure they are detailed enough that every person trying to follow those instructions would have to be doing the exact same things.

 

[Neil]

Show me where. It hasn't. Everything has always been so vague that if ten people try to follow the instructions, all ten are doing something different. And it HAS to be vague because there is a lot of feel involved. Show me where there are detailed enough directions that everybody who tried to follow those would be doing the exact same thing.



I didn't say that. I know the steps better than you in many ways. Every other step is using feel. Still waiting for any proof whatsoever that it finds the correct aim line, or a detailed explanation though. Let me know when you have either one of those things.

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

 

[SamLambert]

That's pretty brutal from a beginner. Good luck with your quest to become a pro with such an open mind.



Since there is no test to be a pool professional I hereby declare you one. However if there was a test I'd bet $10,000 that you wouldn't pass it inside five years.



My advice is to stay as far away from CTE and any aiming systems as possible. Get all your coaching from a guy named Duckie on here. Between you and him you ought to become double world champs in no time.

That was kinda uncalled for. You took my post way too literally. I think CTE sounds like a cult because all it’s users say it’s great and the outsiders are claiming the opposite.

I actually watched one of your video today and I plan to watch a lot more about CTE.

The important part of my comment was the “I’ll see for myself” part, not the cult one.

If you are so sure I can’t achieve pro speed within 5 years, feel free to check on my blog once a month to make sure I keep lagging behind my goal. I actually believe quite firmly that my goal is realistic.


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[duckie]

That's pretty brutal from a beginner. Good luck with your quest to become a pro with such an open mind.

Since there is no test to be a pool professional I hereby declare you one. However if there was a test I'd bet $10,000 that you wouldn't pass it inside five years.

My advice is to stay as far away from CTE and any aiming systems as possible. Get all your coaching from a guy named Duckie on here. Between you and him you ought to become double world champs in no time.

You can go to hell you snot nose asshole.

 

[Banks]

That was kinda uncalled for. You took my post way too literally. I think CTE sounds like a cult because all it’s users say it’s great and the outsiders are claiming the opposite.

I actually watched one of your video today and I plan to watch a lot more about CTE.

The important part of my comment was the “I’ll see for myself” part, not the cult one.

If you are so sure I can’t achieve pro speed within 5 years, feel free to check on my blog once a month to make sure I keep lagging behind my goal. I actually believe quite firmly that my goal is realistic.


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While i consider it a long shot at best, i think that if you really throw yourself at it that you'll have a pretty good idea of your potential after a year or two.

As for JB, he's been barking like a big dog since as far back as i can remember. His m.o. is to try the high roll card. He got called on it once, going so far as to stream the match, in which he had one run over three balls in somewhere around 15 games.

If you want to learn cte, take it straight from the horse's mouth - stan shuffett, as it is his system and he is more than willing to offer assistance. I'm no fan of aiming systems, but if you're going to give it a shot, do it right or else you'll get a dozen keyboard pros telling you whatever they think is right.

You have access to good players locally, from how it sounds. Get a little help and feedback from them. Don't be afraid to pick brains here, but keep in mind that many talk a game far above their actual level of play.

 

[Colin Colenso]

lol

You need a serious reality check.

pj
chgo

He got one, it didn't take.

 

[RiverCity]

You can go to hell you snot nose asshole.

 

[Zphix]

That was kinda uncalled for. You took my post way too literally. I think CTE sounds like a cult because all it’s users say it’s great and the outsiders are claiming the opposite.

I actually watched one of your video today and I plan to watch a lot more about CTE.

The important part of my comment was the “I’ll see for myself” part, not the cult one.

If you are so sure I can’t achieve pro speed within 5 years, feel free to check on my blog once a month to make sure I keep lagging behind my goal. I actually believe quite firmly that my goal is realistic.


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You don't need to validate yourself or defend yourself or your goals to somebody who has the nerve to say what he said. One would think that an advocate of the system would be a little more adamant than he is.

This whole CTE vs. non-CTE fiasco sounds more like a perceived jab to the ego where the CTEers react in an extremely defensive manner. We understand that Stan put in over 20 years to develop and teach the system, and we understand the basic premises of CTE even if you think we don't.

But shooting a ball into a pocket and saying "See! That's XYZ system and it works, isn't enough."

I (as a player) am not interested in anything except the facts of the system, and the facts seem to be sketchy at best. One of my complaints is that CTE users tell me it takes "X amount of hours per week for months" to see the benefits of this system which leads me to question it's validity because "Of course my ball-pocketing is going to improve if I practice for X amount of hours per week for months because I'm practicing, not because of the system."

If anything, it sounds like a PSR based on points that don't change.

 

[JB Cases]

This is not a personal attack on you, but if you are using an aiming system per se, then your skill level is not as high as you think it is.

The aiming system I use is what my brain lines up and tells me.. its a ton of calculations all done in a split second, factoring in every detail..
I developed this "aiming system" by shooting millions of balls...

The conventional terminology when describing "Aiming System" is as defined on a piece of paper.. with aiming points and parallel lines and such.. I have seen them. These only work on a very small percentage of shots and can be easily broken by varying a couple things..

For a quick example, if you change the speed from soft to very hard on a slight cut shot with outside, the contact point that the CB needs to contact the OB to make the ball in the pocket varies by a couple mm, however, the "aiming point" varies by as much as 2-3".. How can that be???

I have yet to have someone show me an aiming system that you don't have to make manual, arbitrary adjustments to eventually pocket the OB.. I can do the same thing by saying that my aiming system says to hit the ball on the opposite side of the ball as the pocket.. (and adjust where needed)

If you go to Derby I would be glad to have you show me any aiming systems you can contrive.. I like seeing new information and new ideas, as well as see how others got to the level they are at.

I will show you my proof if you show me your system.. Instead of rehashing all this on here....

Tell that to Landon Shuffett or Phil Burford or Stan Shuffett. All hundred ball runners. Have you ever finished higher at the US Open than senior citizen Stan Shuffett?

I know you were talking to Neil but my own skill level isn't that great a testimonial for CTE if the premise is that CTE will make someone a great player. That's not the premise though. The premise is that CTE will help a player aim better. Not stroke better, not have better speed control, not to pick the right patterns, just aim better.

I have said this many times and I will say it again. I will bet on Stan Shuffett against ANY player on Earth in a pure shot making contest on a tight Diamond table. I challenged him for a couple hours with a witness present to try and find shots where CTE didn't work. I have $2000 every day to bet on Stan after that session.

I have $100 to PAY anyone in this thread - not a bet - you can get PAID just to duplicate these videos inside the next 24 hours.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0tp_UnS_g

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwdyDAisc6o

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14srrn2uEg

Show me that with feel that you can make a video where you pocket all these balls from the same positions with the same or better percentage.

 

[JB Cases]

You don't need to validate yourself or defend yourself or your goals to somebody who has the nerve to say what he said. One would think that an advocate of the system would be a little more adamant than he is.

This whole CTE vs. non-CTE fiasco sounds more like a perceived jab to the ego where the CTEers react in an extremely defensive manner. We understand that Stan put in over 20 years to develop and teach the system, and we understand the basic premises of CTE even if you think we don't.

But shooting a ball into a pocket and saying "See! That's XYZ system and it works, isn't enough."

I (as a player) am not interested in anything except the facts of the system, and the facts seem to be sketchy at best. One of my complaints is that CTE users tell me it takes "X amount of hours per week for months" to see the benefits of this system which leads me to question it's validity because "Of course my ball-pocketing is going to improve if I practice for X amount of hours per week for months because I'm practicing, not because of the system."

If anything, it sounds like a PSR based on points that don't change.

Stan didn't put in 20 years. You might pick up CTE immediately and not have to spend dozens of hours to get it. Others might need more or less.

The reason we say it takes time is because knockers like to characterize CTE as a touted "magic bullet" method that is claimed to make bangers into champions. None of us ever said that and would not say it.

Yes, CTE is ALSO a pre-shot routine because of the inherent nature of following certain steps to align to the perception required for the shot.

 

[JB Cases]

That was kinda uncalled for. You took my post way too literally. I think CTE sounds like a cult because all it’s users say it’s great and the outsiders are claiming the opposite.

I actually watched one of your video today and I plan to watch a lot more about CTE.

The important part of my comment was the “I’ll see for myself” part, not the cult one.

If you are so sure I can’t achieve pro speed within 5 years, feel free to check on my blog once a month to make sure I keep lagging behind my goal. I actually believe quite firmly that my goal is realistic.


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That's not what you said. You said a cult where the users won't admit it's actually bad.

I am not sure you won't achieve pro speed. I am sure that your remark was 100% rude and uncalled for when the CTE users in this thread only have tried to provide helpful information for you to consider.

If you achieve half of Landon Shuffett's skill you will be regarded as a very good player.