Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[Dognit]

Post #637 on page 43....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5315276&postcount=637

Anyone ready to answer that?

John? Lou? lol

I hear a whole lot of huffin and puffin.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Post the link and your username there. Before I do you have send the $10.

Paypal@jbideas.com

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I'm sure you can find it all by yourself, but the offer stands. You have to give it a good go, however, not simply start a vague thread and then slink off into the shadows. There are enquiring minds there, keen for fresh new ideas on how to improve.

Plus it's potentially a whole new market for you - very few snooker players are brave enough to sport something so [ahem] stylish as the case you're desperately trying to flog in your oversized signature. You could transform the lives of countless frustrated snooker players and make a fortue at the same time!

 

[Ron Swanson]

And why not? Afraid of what you might hear?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I know what i might hear: i find the SEE system helps me to find the line easier on certain shots, when all he need say is i don't care about aiming, never have, never will. My game has not changed one bit since endorsing it, but, if you're aiming curious, SEE is the one to go for because I'm on commission, and the missus is after a new handbag.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Post #637 on page 43....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5315276&postcount=637

Anyone ready to answer that?

John? Lou? lol

I hear a whole lot of huffin and puffin.

My guess is that it was feel players who sometimes use a system for a very specific type of occasional shot like a kicking or banking system. They felt that was probably the best answer since kicking and banking systems and the like are technically systems that are only used some of the time for hard shots. Had the question been more specific about it being only in reference to general aiming systems intended to work for all shots (as I believe was the spirit and intention of the question and what the OP had in mind) and not been so ambiguous then most or all of those would have answered "just feel player" instead.

 

[cookie man]

Post #637 on page 43....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5315276&postcount=637

Anyone ready to answer that?

John? Lou? lol

I hear a whole lot of huffin and puffin.

You are right, you ain't so smart. CTE is used for every shot and it's easier to play with than ghostball.

 

[cookie man]

I thought CTE was suppose to even take one to a slight over cut to counter CIT so that the OB goes CENTER POCKET. That's an amazing connection to not only the 2:1 ratio table but to the laws of physics.

Now you say they just know the proper CTE visual for the shot but that will not get them to consistently pocket the ball.

.

Now you are starting to get it. It is an amazing connection.
Knowing the proper visual is key but everybody still misses shots because we are human.
I'll stand behind this. Once cte visuals are learned it is much easier to play pool than anything else I've tried. It's really like looking at the same shot all the time. The adjustment is which reference line to use.

 

[one stroke]

You are right, you ain't so smart. CTE is used for every shot and it's easier to play with than ghostball.

Ya ok ,,



1

 

[lfigueroa]

Cte worked fine in the match against you. I fell apart emotionally and so my execution wasn't all there.

In fact it's very clear from the video I made many great shots because of using CTE to aim with. Where I messed up was not being calm and thus my fundamentals went to shit. Also I was making bad choices throughout the match.

Which only goes to prove that a good aiming method helps tremendously even the rest of your game has gone to shit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Oh baloney. If the system actually worked you should have made all the shots regardless.

Guess what? The "system" doesn't work.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Post #637 on page 43....
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5315276&postcount=637

Anyone ready to answer that?

John? Lou? lol

I hear a whole lot of huffin and puffin.

I don't know what the answer is because I just see the shot and shoot. If I'm thinking about anything it's a precise hit on the CB. I'm thinking about speed and spin and elevation and maybe swerve on some shots. Why anyone in their right mind would try to utilize a "system" that still makes no sense whatsoever after two DVDs and 20 years of internet gobbledygook spouted by a few fanatics is beyond me.

Lou Figueroa

 

[336Robin]

Feel vs. CTE

I don't know what the answer is because I just see the shot and shoot. If I'm thinking about anything it's a precise hit on the CB. I'm thinking about speed and spin and elevation and maybe swerve on some shots. Why anyone in their right mind would try to utilize a "system" that still makes no sense whatsoever after two DVDs and 20 years of internet gobbledygook spouted by a few fanatics is beyond me.

Lou Figueroa

The reason I see is that there isn't a plausible system that is recognized at this point for teaching the art of feeling the shots. Even if there were....and I am working on that....a lot of people want a system that is if you want to call it this...objective....as they claim. But the objectivity of anything to do with pool is kind of shaky when we as humans have to deliver the cue ball and that's the other half of the battle much less if you have to deliver with spin.

CTE is an interesting thing no doubt but as great as it may or may not be to the people who have devoted the considerable time to it nothing will ever come along that will replace feel but there are many of us who never quite get there or understand how to get there.

That has been my curiosity and something I work on finding ways to deliver to the player that wants that kind of game. A visual understanding without doubts.

When you look at the results of this poll by Sam Lambert you will see that more players are feel players than there are System players and this is no big news.

So when you look at that fact I would surmise that feel in pool is very big considering those numbers and the players that we have that are feel players that cant tell you how they do what they do.

I know for sure that all of the feel skills in pool can be identified and taught. Every feel player out there has a way he does what he does but he has been doing it so long that its become rote but that is none the less a system of sorts only that hasn't been boiled down to broth and analyzed it is simply felt with a long period of time invested.

There is no way one can avoid feel in pool even if you are a CTE player. When it comes to the end of the aiming protocol now you have to spin the ball....enter feel.

What seems to matter the most is who can do that piece of the game.

As evidenced by the Lou vs. JB match feel took the day because Lou knew and understood how he does what he does better than JB. So his system was stronger although it was homemade. Now since he cant tell everyone how he does what he does that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.

Arguments of geometrically correctness fall on deaf ears when you consider you can make balls in 3 parts of the pocket and you can spin balls to make them correct the pathway on the way to the pocket on a bank shot.

A shot is a shot in pool, the target is the pocket and whatever you do in the shot routine to bring you to the place where you make the correct cut on the ball to make the pocket is your preshot routine however you want to slice it.

CTE has no doubt helped some people as it has JB.

There is a great reason if you think about it. It creates a great teaching platform. I haven't seen either one of you play since your match but I would still be inclined to bet my money on Lou and that is no cut to JB. He is a seasoned player who understands his processes and how he does what he does better than JB and the wager would be about skill and not about aiming. Potting balls is just a part of it. A road player I played told me something that I think holds true when you talk about feel. He said.....trust your stroke, not your aim....and therein lies the feel in pool.

 

[duckie]

The reason I see is that there isn't a plausible system that is recognized at this point for teaching the art of feeling the shots. Even if there were....and I am working on that....a lot of people want a system that is if you want to call it this...objective....as they claim. But the objectivity of anything to do with pool is kind of shaky when we as humans have to deliver the cue ball and that's the other half of the battle much less if you have to deliver with spin.

CTE is an interesting thing no doubt but as great as it may or may not be to the people who have devoted the considerable time to it nothing will ever come along that will replace feel but there are many of us who never quite get there or understand how to get there.

That has been my curiosity and something I work on finding ways to deliver to the player that wants that kind of game. A visual understanding without doubts.

When you look at the results of this poll by Sam Lambert you will see that more players are feel players than there are System players and this is no big news.

So when you look at that fact I would surmise that feel in pool is very big considering those numbers and the players that we have that are feel players that cant tell you how they do what they do.

I know for sure that all of the feel skills in pool can be identified and taught. Every feel player out there has a way he does what he does but he has been doing it so long that its become rote but that is none the less a system of sorts only that hasn't been boiled down to broth and analyzed it is simply felt with a long period of time invested.

There is no way one can avoid feel in pool even if you are a CTE player. When it comes to the end of the aiming protocol now you have to spin the ball....enter feel.

What seems to matter the most is who can do that piece of the game.

As evidenced by the Lou vs. JB match feel took the day because Lou knew and understood how he does what he does better than JB. So his system was stronger although it was homemade. Now since he cant tell everyone how he does what he does that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.

Arguments of geometrically correctness fall on deaf ears when you consider you can make balls in 3 parts of the pocket and you can spin balls to make them correct the pathway on the way to the pocket on a bank shot.

A shot is a shot in pool, the target is the pocket and whatever you do in the shot routine to bring you to the place where you make the correct cut on the ball to make the pocket is your preshot routine however you want to slice it.

CTE has no doubt helped some people as it has JB.

There is a great reason if you think about it. It creates a great teaching platform. I haven't seen either one of you play since your match but I would still be inclined to bet my money on Lou and that is no cut to JB. He is a seasoned player who understands his processes and how he does what he does better than JB and the wager would be about skill and not about aiming. Potting balls is just a part of it. A road player I played told me something that I think holds true when you talk about feel. He said.....trust your stroke, not your aim....and therein lies the feel in pool.

The part in bold.......what about safety play?

In safety play you are putting balls into a certain position on the table and not trying to pocket a ball.

In safety play, the person defines the targets....ie where to put the balls. Never has been safety shots been discussed in CTE threads. It is always putting the ball in the pocket and never placement of balls in safety play.

Never has been discussed freezing the cb to the rack like done in 14.1.

All systems must address all possible types of shots in pool and just not a subset of shots which is all CTE does.

 

[lfigueroa]

The reason I see is that there isn't a plausible system that is recognized at this point for teaching the art of feeling the shots. Even if there were....and I am working on that....a lot of people want a system that is if you want to call it this...objective....as they claim. But the objectivity of anything to do with pool is kind of shaky when we as humans have to deliver the cue ball and that's the other half of the battle much less if you have to deliver with spin.

CTE is an interesting thing no doubt but as great as it may or may not be to the people who have devoted the considerable time to it nothing will ever come along that will replace feel but there are many of us who never quite get there or understand how to get there.

That has been my curiosity and something I work on finding ways to deliver to the player that wants that kind of game. A visual understanding without doubts.

When you look at the results of this poll by Sam Lambert you will see that more players are feel players than there are System players and this is no big news.

So when you look at that fact I would surmise that feel in pool is very big considering those numbers and the players that we have that are feel players that cant tell you how they do what they do.

I know for sure that all of the feel skills in pool can be identified and taught. Every feel player out there has a way he does what he does but he has been doing it so long that its become rote but that is none the less a system of sorts only that hasn't been boiled down to broth and analyzed it is simply felt with a long period of time invested.

There is no way one can avoid feel in pool even if you are a CTE player. When it comes to the end of the aiming protocol now you have to spin the ball....enter feel.

What seems to matter the most is who can do that piece of the game.

As evidenced by the Lou vs. JB match feel took the day because Lou knew and understood how he does what he does better than JB. So his system was stronger although it was homemade. Now since he cant tell everyone how he does what he does that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.

Arguments of geometrically correctness fall on deaf ears when you consider you can make balls in 3 parts of the pocket and you can spin balls to make them correct the pathway on the way to the pocket on a bank shot.

A shot is a shot in pool, the target is the pocket and whatever you do in the shot routine to bring you to the place where you make the correct cut on the ball to make the pocket is your preshot routine however you want to slice it.

CTE has no doubt helped some people as it has JB.

There is a great reason if you think about it. It creates a great teaching platform. I haven't seen either one of you play since your match but I would still be inclined to bet my money on Lou and that is no cut to JB. He is a seasoned player who understands his processes and how he does what he does better than JB and the wager would be about skill and not about aiming. Potting balls is just a part of it. A road player I played told me something that I think holds true when you talk about feel. He said.....trust your stroke, not your aim....and therein lies the feel in pool.

I think all of that is a fair analysis.

It is also the reason it makes no difference if Stan can out shoot me or anyone else. It is the reason it matters not that Stevie Moore or any other high caliber player claims to use any particular system. Their success is rooted in the fact that they are simply better players who have more talent and have put in more hours.

And, if as you and your allegorical road player say -- trust your stroke -- the aiming part is automatic, subconscious even.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

A road player I played told me something that I think holds true when you talk about feel. He said.....trust your stroke, not your aim....and therein lies the feel in pool.

A great bit of advise. However, which comes first? Stevie Moore has said that Pro One has given him so much more faith in his aiming that his stroke improved in the process. On a TAR podcast, Archer and SVB both said Moore's game has improved greatly since starting to use Pro One. If it's that obvious to them, why wouldn't be even more obvious to Stevie himself?

I know that when I am seeing the angles clearly, my stroke improves by a huge measure. With the amount that I play these days, that could take 1/2 an hour or even more. It's all strictly by feel after that, but leading up to that point, I struggle mightily. It sure would be nice to know a great alignment system to get me on the proper shot line until I start seeing it clear in my mind. That was my initial interest in Pro One, but it is not something I have been able to put a lot of time into, so I can't say if it would work for me or not. If it worked for me, I would use it whenever it was appropriate. In pool, every little bit helps.

 

[JB Cases]

I think all of that is a fair analysis.

It is also the reason it makes no difference if Stan can out shoot me or anyone else. It is the reason it matters not that Stevie Moore or any other high caliber player claims to use any particular system. Their success is rooted in the fact that they are simply better players who have more talent and have put in more hours.

And, if as you and your allegorical road player say -- trust your stroke -- the aiming part is automatic, subconscious even.

Lou Figueroa

This is so wrong. The fact is that "you", the feel player, can't possibly know if an objective method of aiming would help your game or not until you really try it.

So it you stand there with your feet planted and refuse to move in the thought that you have nothing to gain then only one thing is 100% true, you will gain nothing.

It's all fine to say things like trust your stroke, and be the ball, and let it flow, etc....but these are not precise instructions. They don't measure anything. There is no baseline to operate from. No benchmark to beat.

You personally are a decent player Lou. You're methodical and careful. You make some good shots and you dog shots like everyone else. You could become a better player in my opinion if you had a better way to aim. But you won't become any better than you are in my opinion because you're limited by how you aim. Your stroke is great, your demeanor at the table is calm and you are very good at patiently picking the right shot. All those things are ingredients to being a good player.

I, in contrast have a wonky stroke, I rush shots, I have little patience, and I am certainly not calm without forcing myself to be. So on net you have a lot more going for your game than I do when all the needed traits are factored in. Aiming better doesn't make me a better player than you. We saw that clearly. But I know for certain that aiming better would make you a better player than you currently are.

The reason Stan would likely beat you if you two matched up is simply that he will make more shots than you will in any game you play. And by shots I mean he will pocket more balls and he will bank better than you. You both might move equally well, you might pick patterns about the same, you both will have very smooth strokes. But in the end he will simply outshoot you because you miss due to uncertainty in aim in my opinion.

This is just my personal analysis based on playing you for nine hours. I know you likely don't agree but you certainly have zero basis to tell everyone else they can't benefit from an aiming system. CTE at least is not a placebo at all.

 

[JW_Redmon]

Aiming Systems

I've played pool for over 50 years (B+ rating) and I usually shoot a shot by visualizing the shot, drawing from my minds database of shots executed in the past. There are occasions where I'll use the techniques of a given aiming system. For example, sometimes I'll use the ghost ball method to get a better visual of the tangent line in order to keep from scratching or for breaking up a cluster. I have found myself using the center to edge method for back cut banks when the object ball is within a ball's width of the rail and using the fractional ball method on regular banks where the object ball is close to the rail.

It is my belief that all aiming systems have their flaws and limitations. That is not to say that they have no benefits, because they do. A system can provide a person with a starting point to help develop thier aiming techniques.

Aiming systems can get a begginer started on the right path, after much practice they will develop a “feel” for the shot and will be able to “see” the shot because their mind’s computer has stored that information.

Most systems will cause you to stop and think in order to analyze your shot. All systems have their limitations and require a conscious or sub-conscious adjustment for a given shot. Most systems don’t factor in throw, squirt, swerve and speed. I've found that those factors are compensated for through experience and the minds ability to make the adjustments based on previous experiences.

 

[JB Cases]

The part in bold.......what about safety play?

In safety play you are putting balls into a certain position on the table and not trying to pocket a ball.

In safety play, the person defines the targets....ie where to put the balls. Never has been safety shots been discussed in CTE threads. It is always putting the ball in the pocket and never placement of balls in safety play.

Never has been discussed freezing the cb to the rack like done in 14.1.

All systems must address all possible types of shots in pool and just not a subset of shots which is all CTE does.

Because when it comes to shots where you don't have to shoot to a pocket you can use feel, ghost ball, contact point, etc...to figure it out. Why is it so hard for you understand that CTE (or any objective ball to ball aiming system) is just another tool in a player's toolbox. We can always go back to ghostball at any time for any reason. If that's the best tool for a shot then that's what a good player will use.

But you can't use the power of CTE when you don't know it. In a shot making contest you would be crushed by the number of shots you can't make if you went up against a CTE player.

 

[JB Cases]

I've played pool for over 50 years (B+ rating) and I usually shoot a shot by visualizing the shot, drawing from my minds database of shots executed in the past. There are occasions where I'll use the techniques of a given aiming system. For example, sometimes I'll use the ghost ball method to get a better visual of the tangent line in order to keep from scratching or for breaking up a cluster. I have found myself using the center to edge method for back cut banks when the object ball is within a ball's width of the rail and using the fractional ball method on regular banks where the object ball is close to the rail.

It is my belief that all aiming systems have their flaws and limitations. That is not to say that they have no benefits, because they do. A system can provide a person with a starting point to help develop thier aiming techniques.

Aiming systems can get a begginer started on the right path, after much practice they will develop a “feel” for the shot and will be able to “see” the shot because their mind’s computer has stored that information.

Most systems will cause you to stop and think in order to analyze your shot. All systems have their limitations and require a conscious or sub-conscious adjustment for a given shot. Most systems don’t factor in throw, squirt, swerve and speed. I've found that those factors are compensated for through experience and the minds ability to make the adjustments based on previous experiences.

CTE helps players at all levels. I happen to think it's really more helpful for intermediate players.

And it's been my own experience that a system which has been well practiced becomes a natural looking part of a player's game to the point where they don't analyze shots. They see the alignment as they step to the table and go smoothly into shooting position. In fact I have heard from people that I am a great natural shotmaker when I have made some incredible shots throughout a match. I usually then tell them it's because I have a good aiming system to use that I could get the right shot line on those shots.

 

[LAMas]

So most shoot by feel.

You can feel up or down during the day/s.
Your shooting by feel can also be up or down.
What do you use as backup when your shooting is down?
More time on each shot until it feels right?

Be well

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've played pool for over 50 years (B+ rating) and I usually shoot a shot by visualizing the shot, drawing from my minds database of shots executed in the past. There are occasions where I'll use the techniques of a given aiming system. For example, sometimes I'll use the ghost ball method to get a better visual of the tangent line in order to keep from scratching or for breaking up a cluster. I have found myself using the center to edge method for back cut banks when the object ball is within a ball's width of the rail and using the fractional ball method on regular banks where the object ball is close to the rail.

It is my belief that all aiming systems have their flaws and limitations. That is not to say that they have no benefits, because they do. A system can provide a person with a starting point to help develop thier aiming techniques.

Aiming systems can get a begginer started on the right path, after much practice they will develop a “feel” for the shot and will be able to “see” the shot because their mind’s computer has stored that information.

Most systems will cause you to stop and think in order to analyze your shot. All systems have their limitations and require a conscious or sub-conscious adjustment for a given shot. Most systems don’t factor in throw, squirt, swerve and speed. I've found that those factors are compensated for through experience and the minds ability to make the adjustments based on previous experiences.

Very good post.:thumbup2:

I talked to one of the best players in my area about CTE & whether or not it had holes. He almost screamed, 'Oh Yeah!' & continued... 'That's why you need at least 2 or 3 methods.'.

Best Wishes.

 

[ENGLISH!]

CTE helps players at all levels. I happen to think it's really more helpful for intermediate players.

And it's been my own experience that a system which has been well practiced becomes a natural looking part of a player's game to the point where they don't analyze shots. They see the alignment as they step to the table and go smoothly into shooting position. In fact I have heard from people that I am a great natural shotmaker when I have made some incredible shots throughout a match. I usually then tell them it's because I have a good aiming system to use that I could get the right shot line on those shots.

Good Day John,

It's a bit funny to me how when you make a really good shot you attribute it to CTE, BUT... when you miss a shot it's always due to something else.

Have you ever considered that those really good shots fit the visual perfectly while the miss might be because that shot does NOT fit the visual perfectly & you shot it objectively, trusting the 'system' & did not allow for your subconscious to have any input to get the correct perception of the shot & position you accordingly?

Best Wishes.