my take on cuemakers , case makers and table mechanics.

[(((Satori)))]

No clue. That much ivory, ebony, leather wrap, two shafts, custom JPs... $40K?

Whatever it cost, Ernie delivered it on time

Lou Figueroa

Thanks, I had no clue.

I just know it's beautiful. All of his cues look awesome. If I were going to spend for a custom cue I would want it to look like something he makes just for his look alone. Sticking to the thread theme though... even as great as they look I would not buy one if I had to go through the hassle on the other thread from the other guy.

 

[realkingcobra]

No clue. That much ivory, ebony, leather wrap, two shafts, custom JPs... $40K?

Whatever it cost, Ernie delivered it on time

Lou Figueroa

To prove my point, Lou, can you name 10 Pro players who play with cue custom made by Ernie?

 

[Allen Brown]

lorider, I want to apologize for hijacking your thread.
RKC, I wish you safe travels on your work ahead.

 

[lfigueroa]

To prove my point, Lou, can you name 10 Pro players who play with cue custom made by Ernie?

No I cannot and I can't imagine what that would prove. I am not a pro player fan boy and couldn't tell you what cue any particular pro plays with. Perhaps someone else can.

However, I do know this: when I'm in his shop I have seen the walls covered with photos of pro players and celebrities from all eras standing with Ernie and one of his cues. He is a legend.

Lou Figueroa

 

[realkingcobra]

No I cannot and I can't imagine what that would prove. I am not a pro player fan boy and couldn't tell you what cue any particular pro plays with. Perhaps someone else can.

However, I do know this: when I'm in his shop I have seen the walls covered with photos of pro players and celebrities from all eras standing with Ernie and one of his cues. He is a legend.

Lou Figueroa

Finally, you've proven my point Lou, and this goes for everyone else that would like to get on the band wagon riding those of us that you find it so easy to complain about when it comes to time frames and scheduling. There is a major difference between art and functionality, like the difference between a Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and any other extreme top of the line exotic car built, and a Ford, Chevrolet, Volkswagen or any other car that gets 99% of the people to and from work everyday. It's called functionality, meaning it's designed to be used by everyday people. Ernie don't build cues for everyday players, if he did, they would lose their value overnight from being used everyday, and if he did, he'd have to drop his prices drastically, part of that drop in price would end up in the quality of his cues dropping as well, and I can only imagine what that would do to his shipping dates...YET, everyone else building cues of functionality gets judged by the most elite, art producing, limited production up makers as in...why can't so and so cue maker get his use delivered on time, why can't he return my calls faster when I leave a message that I want to talk to him....I want my new cue, and I want it now!!

Now, the same thing goes on in the table mechanic business, and the used table selling/buying business. There's a lot of people out here selling so called restored, refinished Cenntennials, Anniversaries, Gold Crowns, and Diamonds. Some of them look to the untrained eye, pretty damn nice too, until someone buys it, gets it set up at home, then starts playing on it, only to find out, it plays like shit....if they even know how to play pool that is! Functionality, that's what Mark Gregory sells when he rebuilds a Cenntennial, or an Anniversary, because not only does he do restoration work second to none, he also makes all the tables he rebuilds, play like no other tables can play, not even from the original manufacturer....functionality!

I don't restore pool tables like Mark does, and wouldn't even stick my big toe into that side of this business for no amount of money, and why should I, I already have a best friend doing that type of work, yet Mark has his problems getting the jobs done as well....you all just don't hear about them, but I know about them....I just refuse to share them here with all of you on AZB.

I'm different than Mark in that I'm more interested in making all the pool tables I work on always play at their best, as well as incorporating my newest modifications into every table I work on....but you guys judge a pool table mechanic as someone that moves, sets up, or changes the cloth on a pool table. They make an appointment to come out to your house, get there on time, do the job, take your money, then leave. BUT, after their gone, the problems you had that you wanted fixed, like the balls rolling off, the seams coming apart, the cushion's needing replaced....that you paid for....are either worse than it was before they touched your pool table, or the didn't do a damn thing....other than to tell you don't play on the table for 24 hours, because it has to settle....when the truth is, they want time to cash the check before you find out how bad of a job they really did!

Here just a little while back I went to pick up a 9ft Anniversary and move it from the sellers house to the buyers for $500, not a big job, simple really, until I got to the table that is! Suprise suprise, mismatched frame, missing brace between the pedestals, missing parts of the blinds, rails stapled out to no end....nice!!! But I was only there to move and set up the table....just like most of the so called table mechanic's in this industry do....that's it!!! Well, somewhere along the way my customer found out who I was and asked me if I could fix his newly bought table up to play great, but that he wasn't interested in having it refinished...so guess what that does to all my plans for my already in line customers that are next in line, but not in Washington State? That's right, it backs them up...again, like usual. ..yet, what am I supposed to do with this new customer? Kick him to the curb because I already have a full calendar? Trust me when I say, hacks in this business don't have to worry about fixing anything more than they have to do to get paid....because they're NOT called upon to actually FIX pool tables....and that's what all you judge me by...the guy that has no waiting list, no repeat business, and don't fix shit....yet he'll show up right on time!!!!

I've said enough, don't need to say anymore....none of you pay my bills, nor are any of you customers of mine!!!!

 

[lfigueroa]

Finally, you've proven my point Lou, and this goes for everyone else that would like to get on the band wagon riding those of us that you find it so easy to complain about when it comes to time frames and scheduling. There is a major difference between art and functionality, like the difference between a Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and any other extreme top of the line exotic car built, and a Ford, Chevrolet, Volkswagen or any other car that gets 99% of the people to and from work everyday. It's called functionality, meaning it's designed to be used by everyday people. Ernie don't build cues for everyday players, if he did, they would lose their value overnight from being used everyday, and if he did, he'd have to drop his prices drastically, part of that drop in price would end up in the quality of his cues dropping as well, and I can only imagine what that would do to his shipping dates...YET, everyone else building cues of functionality gets judged by the most elite, art producing, limited production up makers as in...why can't so and so cue maker get his use delivered on time, why can't he return my calls faster when I leave a message that I want to talk to him....I want my new cue, and I want it now!!

Now, the same thing goes on in the table mechanic business, and the used table selling/buying business. There's a lot of people out here selling so called restored, refinished Cenntennials, Anniversaries, Gold Crowns, and Diamonds. Some of them look to the untrained eye, pretty damn nice too, until someone buys it, gets it set up at home, then starts playing on it, only to find out, it plays like shit....if they even know how to play pool that is! Functionality, that's what Mark Gregory sells when he rebuilds a Cenntennial, or an Anniversary, because not only does he do restoration work second to none, he also makes all the tables he rebuilds, play like no other tables can play, not even from the original manufacturer....functionality!

I don't restore pool tables like Mark does, and wouldn't even stick my big toe into that side of this business for no amount of money, and why should I, I already have a best friend doing that type of work, yet Mark has his problems getting the jobs done as well....you all just don't hear about them, but I know about them....I just refuse to share them here with all of you on AZB.

I'm different than Mark in that I'm more interested in making all the pool tables I work on always play at their best, as well as incorporating my newest modifications into every table I work on....but you guys judge a pool table mechanic as someone that moves, sets up, or changes the cloth on a pool table. They make an appointment to come out to your house, get there on time, do the job, take your money, then leave. BUT, after their gone, the problems you had that you wanted fixed, like the balls rolling off, the seams coming apart, the cushion's needing replaced....that you paid for....are either worse than it was before they touched your pool table, or the didn't do a damn thing....other than to tell you don't play on the table for 24 hours, because it has to settle....when the truth is, they want time to cash the check before you find out how bad of a job they really did!

Here just a little while back I went to pick up a 9ft Anniversary and move it from the sellers house to the buyers for $500, not a big job, simple really, until I got to the table that is! Suprise suprise, mismatched frame, missing brace between the pedestals, missing parts of the blinds, rails stapled out to no end....nice!!! But I was only there to move and set up the table....just like most of the so called table mechanic's in this industry do....that's it!!! Well, somewhere along the way my customer found out who I was and asked me if I could fix his newly bought table up to play great, but that he wasn't interested in having it refinished...so guess what that does to all my plans for my already in line customers that are next in line, but not in Washington State? That's right, it backs them up...again, like usual. ..yet, what am I supposed to do with this new customer? Kick him to the curb because I already have a full calendar? Trust me when I say, hacks in this business don't have to worry about fixing anything more than they have to do to get paid....because they're NOT called upon to actually FIX pool tables....and that's what all you judge me by...the guy that has no waiting list, no repeat business, and don't fix shit....yet he'll show up right on time!!!!

I've said enough, don't need to say anymore....none of you pay my bills, nor are any of you customers of mine!!!!

That is patently absurd.

I play with both my Ginas -- an eight-point and a five-point, worth several thousand each -- and I know other players like to play with their Ginas because I see them in action every year at the DCC and US Opens I’ve played in. In addition, it is a well known fact that Ernie makes his cues to be played with.

True, some of the fancier ones go straight to the cue vault but many are in play. I personally recall that on the West Coast, in the 60’s and 70’s, you couldn’t walk into any pool room, swing a dead cat, and not hit someone playing with a Gina (or Tad). All the top player were playing with them. Even that uber-fancy “Silver Gina” (you know the one Ernie has reputedly turned down $250K for) has been written about here and how Ernie recently brought it out at an LA pool hall and played 9ball with it. So your claim that Ginas are not functional is horse-hooey.

What any of that has to do with the central issue of meeting customer deadlines, a craftsman keeping his promises, and being a man of your word, escapes me.

Lou Figueroa

 

[realkingcobra]

That is patently absurd.

I play with both my Ginas -- an eight-point and a five-point, worth several thousand each -- and I know other players like to play with their Ginas because I see them in action every year at the DCC and US Opens I’ve played in. In addition, it is a well known fact that Ernie makes his cues to be played with.

True, some of the fancier ones go straight to the cue vault but many are in play. I personally recall that on the West Coast, in the 60’s and 70’s, you couldn’t walk into any pool room, swing a dead cat, and not hit someone playing with a Gina (or Tad). All the top player were playing with them. Even that uber-fancy “Silver Gina” (you know the one Ernie has reputedly turned down $250K for) has been written about here and how Ernie recently brought it out at an LA pool hall and played 9ball with it. So your claim that Ginas are not functional is horse-hooey.

What any of that has to do with the central issue of meeting customer deadlines, a craftsman keeping his promises, and being a man of your word, escapes me.

Lou Figueroa

In the 70s' I never heard of a Gina cue, everyone played with Meucci, Viking, Palmer, McDermott, Joss, Joss West, Joss East, Huebler, Tad, and many more production cues at that time. When Bill Stroud dropped his line of production cues, he raised his prices, lowered his production rate output, and started making custom cues only in order to keep up with the demand for his cues which increased the waiting list drastically, thereby increasing the demand for his cues. This opened the door to many other custom cue builders to follow suit thus creating the supply and demand wait on limited production cues. Do you honestly believe that if you're given a time frame of a year to get a custom built, one of a kind cue....that it actually takes a year to build it? If so, then you must still believe in Santa Claus. The demand for certain cues, the demand for certain table mechanic's....that is what causes the overload on scheduled projects being finished on time. Like I said, I'd have no problem keeping up with scheduling if I jacked my prices sky high, so that instead of 800 people waiting on me, it dropped to only 50 customers a year, but those 50 paid for the 150 a year I couldn't get to, but then I'd only be working for those with a lot of money, stepping over those who really care the most about playing pool. No, I think I'll continue on just the way I always have, and that's trying to help anyone I can in the area I'm currently in. If it turns out that I miss some customers, I'll try and catch them the next time I'm in the area. What's funny about AZB, is that those that do all the complaining about what I do for a living, are not my customers, and I'd never work for them, so why is that? If I do have an upset customer, I do try my best to resolve the problem, but no, I don't run back here to AZB and report in that everything is all ok, it's all resolved and here's what I did to make my customer happy. I don't do that because I owe no one on here an explanation about anything, that's between my customer and me only.

So, keep on buying cues that make you feel good, and keep on hiring so called pool table mechanic's that have no idea about anything other than installing cloth, and most can't even do that right.

 

[JC]

Geez these threads get old.

It's not that complex. If you want the kind of job that these "flakey" craftsman can do then be smart and patient. Make your schedule flexible and don't let shit out of your sight or pay the ferry man till he gets you to the other side. Relax and enjoy the journey and stop worrying so much about the destination. Accept that they are not plumbers or electricians, who by the way are not much more reliable as a group.

Everyone who came here with their tales of how they got "screwed" made the same mistakes. There is no longer any excuse it's public record, so what's new?

I have had some work done by table guys who were pretty good and very reliable.

None of it compared to what the best did for me when the smoke cleared.

JC

 

[decent dennis]

In the 70s' I never heard of a Gina cue, everyone played with Meucci, Viking, Palmer, McDermott, Joss, Joss West, Joss East, Huebler, Tad, and many more production cues at that time. When Bill Stroud dropped his line of production cues, he raised his prices, lowered his production rate output, and started making custom cues only in order to keep up with the demand for his cues which increased the waiting list drastically, thereby increasing the demand for his cues. This opened the door to many other custom cue builders to follow suit thus creating the supply and demand wait on limited production cues. Do you honestly believe that if you're given a time frame of a year to get a custom built, one of a kind cue....that it actually takes a year to build it? If so, then you must still believe in Santa Claus. The demand for certain cues, the demand for certain table mechanic's....that is what causes the overload on scheduled projects being finished on time. Like I said, I'd have no problem keeping up with scheduling if I jacked my prices sky high, so that instead of 800 people waiting on me, it dropped to only 50 customers a year, but those 50 paid for the 150 a year I couldn't get to, but then I'd only be working for those with a lot of money, stepping over those who really care the most about playing pool. No, I think I'll continue on just the way I always have, and that's trying to help anyone I can in the area I'm currently in. If it turns out that I miss some customers, I'll try and catch them the next time I'm in the area. What's funny about AZB, is that those that do all the complaining about what I do for a living, are not my customers, and I'd never work for them, so why is that? If I do have an upset customer, I do try my best to resolve the problem, but no, I don't run back here to AZB and report in that everything is all ok, it's all resolved and here's what I did to make my customer happy. I don't do that because I owe no one on here an explanation about anything, that's between my customer and me only.

So, keep on buying cues that make you feel good, and keep on hiring so called pool table mechanic's that have no idea about anything other than installing cloth, and most can't even do that right.

800 customers waiting on you?:rotflmao1:

 

[realkingcobra]

800 customers waiting on you?:rotflmao1:

I wouldn't worry about it on your part, you're not on my list:rotflmao1:

 

[lfigueroa]

In the 70s' I never heard of a Gina cue, everyone played with Meucci, Viking, Palmer, McDermott, Joss, Joss West, Joss East, Huebler, Tad, and many more production cues at that time. When Bill Stroud dropped his line of production cues, he raised his prices, lowered his production rate output, and started making custom cues only in order to keep up with the demand for his cues which increased the waiting list drastically, thereby increasing the demand for his cues. This opened the door to many other custom cue builders to follow suit thus creating the supply and demand wait on limited production cues. Do you honestly believe that if you're given a time frame of a year to get a custom built, one of a kind cue....that it actually takes a year to build it? If so, then you must still believe in Santa Claus. The demand for certain cues, the demand for certain table mechanic's....that is what causes the overload on scheduled projects being finished on time. Like I said, I'd have no problem keeping up with scheduling if I jacked my prices sky high, so that instead of 800 people waiting on me, it dropped to only 50 customers a year, but those 50 paid for the 150 a year I couldn't get to, but then I'd only be working for those with a lot of money, stepping over those who really care the most about playing pool. No, I think I'll continue on just the way I always have, and that's trying to help anyone I can in the area I'm currently in. If it turns out that I miss some customers, I'll try and catch them the next time I'm in the area. What's funny about AZB, is that those that do all the complaining about what I do for a living, are not my customers, and I'd never work for them, so why is that? If I do have an upset customer, I do try my best to resolve the problem, but no, I don't run back here to AZB and report in that everything is all ok, it's all resolved and here's what I did to make my customer happy. I don't do that because I owe no one on here an explanation about anything, that's between my customer and me only.

So, keep on buying cues that make you feel good, and keep on hiring so called pool table mechanic's that have no idea about anything other than installing cloth, and most can't even do that right.

No clue how when you first heard about Ginas is germane to the OP’s topic of case makers and table mechanics doing what they say they will do and shoddy work ethic.

And sure, if the cue maker has other orders and other cues in the works, not to mention personal commitments, it could easily take a year to build a custom cue, perhaps longer depending on the popularity of the cue maker and the intricacy and quality of his work.

So, go ahead and keep doing what you're doing.

I was writing about how one legendary cue maker has earned the respect of the entire pool community over the course of 50 years and thousands of customers and relating my personal experiences. Part of that is timely delivery, sterling ethics, and some of the most wonderful cues ever made. I never mentioned you or your work.

But, since you insist on making this about *you* I will tell you that if the way you argue here — constantly attempting to distract and dissemble instead of taking responsibility for the shoddy way you do business and the numerous egregious complaints of your customers — I would never hire you. I know, I know, lol, you have 800 customers lined up.

Good for you and oh so sad for them.

Lou Figueroa

 

[realkingcobra]

No clue how when you first heard about Ginas is germane to the OP’s topic of case makers and table mechanics doing what they say they will do and shoddy work ethic.

And sure, if the cue maker has other orders and other cues in the works, not to mention personal commitments, it could easily take a year to build a custom cue, perhaps longer depending on the popularity of the cue maker and the intricacy and quality of his work.

So, go ahead and keep doing what you're doing.

I was writing about how one legendary cue maker has earned the respect of the entire pool community over the course of 50 years and thousands of customers and relating my personal experiences. Part of that is timely delivery, sterling ethics, and some of the most wonderful cues ever made. I never mentioned you or your work.

But, since you insist on making this about *you* I will tell you that if the way you argue here — constantly attempting to distract and dissemble instead of taking responsibility for the shoddy way you do business and the numerous egregious complaints of your customers — I would never hire you. I know, I know, lol, you have 800 customers lined up.

Good for you and oh so sad for them.

Lou Figueroa

You're entitled to your beliefs, just don't expect anyone else to buy into them, 99% of the cue buying world don't buy Gina cues, just like most all so called pool table mechanic's are nothing more than cloth installers posing as table mechanic's. Product pricing determines the waiting list. Over pricing thins down the waiting list and make completion dates much easier to meet. Quality is more important than quantity, but quantity rules the masses as its much more affordable, therefore more accessible. Production has its problems, because while you can please most of the customers most of the time, you can never please all the customers all the time....unless you have a very limited number of customers, period.