No best and no greatest!

A

Ak Guy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I was a kid 14.1 ruled and Mosconi was the greatest. Greenleaf and Hoppi and maybe a few others had their time in the spot light too.

Fast track to 2015 and times have changed. There is no reigning best or greatest player any more and I don't see that changing. No single player dominates in 8 or 9 or 10 ball or One Pocket year after year and 14.1 is not as popular as it was years ago. Same goes for Snooker and 3 Cushion. I'm referring to pool as I know it and I'm not really familiar with Snooker in Europe.

There are so many really good players of rotation games and any one of them can win any big tournament on any given day.

Of those still living maybe Efren is the last of the greats. He has had many 8 and 9 Ball and One Pocket accomplishments in his life and is truly a well rounded great pool player.

Just my thoughts.
 
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There are a lot of enjoyable players out there! Isn't that something to be grateful for?
I love Robertson and Trump, thrown in a few classic O'Sullivans. There are even good girls (literally - they're around 20 years old only!) playing in the USBTC 2015.

I'd be bored out of my mind seeing the same guy over and over again :p

Naoyuki Oi is also very enjoyable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwft3Q5kN0k

Cheers!
 
Ak Guy said:
When I was a kid 14.1 ruled and Mosconi was the greatest. Greenleaf and Hoppi and maybe a few others had their time in the spot light too.

Fast track to 2015 and times have changed. There is no reigning best or greatest player any more and I don't see that changing. No single player dominates in 8 or 9 or 10 ball or One Pocket year after year and 14.1 is not as popular as it was years ago. Same goes for Snooker and 3 Cushion. I'm referring to pool as I know it and I'm not really familiar with Snooker in Europe.

There are so many really good players of rotation games and any one of them can win any big tournament on any given day.

Of those still living maybe Efren is the last of the greats. He has had many 8 and 9 Ball and One Pocket accomplishments in his life and is truly a well rounded great pool player.

Just my thoughts.
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earl was just about as dominate as effren imop...no he didn't own one hole, but he was just as dominate or maybe more dominate at 9ball....hell he has the us opens and all those world championships....he is actually a extremely good one pocket player and has ran over 400 balls in straight pool......there are also only MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of more players than there were in yesteryear across the world....top competition is EXTREMELY STIFF....this is why you dont see some always running away with everything like years past. I bet there are more 300+ ball runners alive today in straight pool than there were in 1930....just a guess but i bet I'm right.

Its also not like everyone was running for the hills against mosconi in 9 ball, and no top straight pool players today are going to chit their pants if they had to play effren in a match in 14.1 in his prime.

There is only one player that owned the entire pocket billiard and billiards world hostage at will and i'm sure if he had wanted to he'd have held the snooker world hostage as well if he so dam well pleased......that'd be the late great Harold Worst.....who sold the best shoes in Grand Rapids Michigan lol

Bide your time....the people we are speaking about are once in a lifetime, and occasionally we see them in each generation give or take......someone is coming....someone will come.

-Greyghost
 
Ak Guy said:
When I was a kid 14.1 ruled and Mosconi was the greatest. Greenleaf and Hoppi and maybe a few others had their time in the spot light too.

Fast track to 2015 and times have changed. There is no reigning best or greatest player any more and I don't see that changing. No single player dominates in 8 or 9 or 10 ball or One Pocket year after year and 14.1 is not as popular as it was years ago. Same goes for Snooker and 3 Cushion. I'm referring to pool as I know it and I'm not really familiar with Snooker in Europe.

There are so many really good players of rotation games and any one of them can win any big tournament on any given day.

Of those still living maybe Efren is the last of the greats. He has had many 8 and 9 Ball and One Pocket accomplishments in his life and is truly a well rounded great pool player.

Just my thoughts.
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The field is unquestionably deeper now than at any time in the past. Modern players would ROB past players in rotation games, one pocket and probably in 14.1 as well.

14.1 would be the one game where the older players might actually dominate since it was the dominant game back then. But I am not sure because reportedly pockets were bigger on average than today. When I see guys like Archer and Appleton stepping up with relatively little 14.1 experience running 200+ I have to think that IF modern players played more 14.1 then they would absolutely be highly competitive with the best of the older players.

We have many players who are excellent in all games. Shane, Alex, Orcullo, Efren of course, Hall, Bergman, to name a few.

I think it speaks to how deep the skill level is that there are no clearly dominant players. Although one can look at Van Boeing's earnings over the past five years and conclude that he is pretty dominant as a money earner.

In order to take the top spot away from him players literally have to win events that pay ridiculous amounts, like Appleton's 98k win in China or Alex's "50k" win over Frost. (really was 25k and Alex didn't get all of that.)
 
Mosconi is lucky he didn't have to play 9-ball or 10-ball against these Taiwanese and Chinese monsters . Or 8-ball for that matter. He would have been minced meat imo. These guys break and jump balls crazy good . :eek: And they freaking practice on 3 7/8" or less corners. :eek:
Sigel and Earl can thank their lucky stars they won their titles before these foreigners showed up.
 
These were class apart
Earl, Efren

and
Ronnie O'Sullivan still is.
 
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Worst?

I will have to look up this Harold Worst guy as his name has came up before. What years was he on top of the game? Any videos out there?
 
Not having one dominate the game makes it more interesting. You are never sure who is going to win.
 
I am thankful that I was able to see Efren play. He is the greatest player IMO, I have ever seen.

Bob Gibson was so dominating they had to change the game of baseball (lowering the height of the pitching mound), no other player can say they changed the game.

Efren changed the game of one-pocket, and also 9 ball in his kicking abilities. His play is the model for almost all top players today. Not many can say that.

JMO, I wish everyone the best of rolls.

Ken
 
Worst

Ak Guy said:
I will have to look up this Harold Worst guy as his name has came up before. What years was he on top of the game? Any videos out there?
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After five years of tutelage under Willie Hoppe, Harold Worst won his first World Title (3-C) at age 25, and held titles in at least four different disciplines.

He won several major titles during the last year of his life, when he was literally dying of cancer at age 36.
 
O'Sullivan dominates snooker. Every professional snooker player past and present agrees with me.

Pool is a little more subjective:

Nobody will ever dominate pool like Mosconi did (although I doubt he did) because your Van Boenings and Appletons and..........., etc have mental strength in buckets because they have a professional attitude to the game that was rare or even unheard of in Mosconi's day. The work-a-day ethic of the pros would beat the indomitable talent of the past. Technique beats old school soul crushing.
 
Ken_4fun said:
I am thankful that I was able to see Efren play. He is the greatest player IMO, I have ever seen.

Bob Gibson was so dominating they had to change the game of baseball (lowering the height of the pitching mound), no other player can say they changed the game.

Efren changed the game of one-pocket, and also 9 ball in his kicking abilities. His play is the model for almost all top players today. Not many can say that.

JMO, I wish everyone the best of rolls.

Ken
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Bobby Orr changed the way defensemen played.:grin:
 
Ken 4 fun, just wanted to throw this out there, it wasn't just Gibson that made them lower the mound. There was about 10 -15 pitchers that year that had sub 2 era's, and there was only one 300 hitter, so it was the dominance of pitching that caused the change in the mound, not just one guy. Guys that had sub 2 eras and barely had a .500 pitching record. Drysdale finished 14-12 with a sub 2 era, and I think Dean Chance had a sub 2 era and barely finished .500.
What kind of era would Koufax have had if he hadn't retired? Sub 1 probably
 
Ken_4fun said:
I am thankful that I was able to see Efren play. He is the greatest player IMO, I have ever seen.

Bob Gibson was so dominating they had to change the game of baseball (lowering the height of the pitching mound), no other player can say they changed the game.

Efren changed the game of one-pocket, and also 9 ball in his kicking abilities. His play is the model for almost all top players today. Not many can say that.

JMO, I wish everyone the best of rolls.

Ken
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^^^This^^^ No one was moving the cue ball and kicking like Efren until he showed up...
up until then IMO it was Earl's power 9 ball game, which I still rate as a close second..
Efren plays ALL the games well. I don't really see anything mind blowing about Ko or some of the others' game... competent, yes. Jumping?... meh.
 
Runner said:
^^^This^^^ No one was moving the cue ball and kicking like Efren until he showed up...
up until then IMO it was Earl's power 9 ball game, which I still rate as a close second..
Efren plays ALL the games well. I don't really see anything mind blowing about Ko or some of the others' game... competent, yes. Jumping?... meh.
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To be fair though the rules also changed to one foul ball in hand in the late 80s forcing players to up their kicking game.

So Efren coming into the USA with an already high level kicking game gave him an advantage at a time when the rules favored his abilities.

Nick Varner beat him in his prime in Manila.

We all agree about Efren's greatness. But he didn't dominate tournaments in the 90s. Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall and Varner were the dominant players. One year Varner won almost every pro event and it was the first time on record that any pro had broken 100k in tournament winnings.

Mike Sigel had a tape out in the early 90s produced by Joss where he taught precision kicking. It's not the pros back then were helpless against Efren's kicking game.
 
JB Cases said:
To be fair though the rules also changed to one foul ball in hand in the late 80s forcing players to up their kicking game.

So Efren coming into the USA with an already high level kicking game gave him an advantage at a time when the rules favored his abilities.

Nick Varner beat him in his prime in Manila.

We all agree about Efren's greatness. But he didn't dominate tournaments in the 90s. Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall and Varner were the dominant players. One year Varner won almost every pro event and it was the first time on record that any pro had broken 100k in tournament winnings.

Mike Sigel had a tape out in the early 90s produced by Joss where he taught precision kicking. It's not the pros back then were helpless against Efren's kicking game.
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Point taken... that's why I mentioned Earl... before Efren started dominating, Earl IMO was the most feared 9 baller ever... I think it was in Reno, Earl broke and ran the set out on Varner... I think Nick potted 3 balls and played 2 safeties... Earl's shotmaking was out of control.
 
JB Cases said:
To be fair though the rules also changed to one foul ball in hand in the late 80s forcing players to up their kicking game.

So Efren coming into the USA with an already high level kicking game gave him an advantage at a time when the rules favored his abilities.

Nick Varner beat him in his prime in Manila.

We all agree about Efren's greatness. But he didn't dominate tournaments in the 90s. Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall and Varner were the dominant players. One year Varner won almost every pro event and it was the first time on record that any pro had broken 100k in tournament winnings.

Mike Sigel had a tape out in the early 90s produced by Joss where he taught precision kicking. It's not the pros back then were helpless against Efren's kicking game.
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1993, the year before Efren beat Varner at the US Open in 1994.
From then, Efren and Archer pretty much won every other PBT event through 1996. Efren won 11 titles in those two years. He didn't go to all evens either.
Nobody kicked-safe before came . Varner even said when they kicked then, they were just happy to make contact. Efren was the only one who knew what side of the ball to hit .
 
JoeyInCali said:
1993, the year before Efren beat Varner at the US Open in 1994.
From then, Efren and Archer pretty much won every other PBT event through 1996. Efren won 11 titles in those two years. He didn't go to all evens either.
Nobody kicked-safe before came . Varner even said when they kicked then, they were just happy to make contact. Efren was the only one who knew what side of the ball to hit .
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This, exactly.
 
effren was basically Harold Worst "light" and the opposite.....brought up in rotation and a billiards/one pocket background....compared to brought up in billiards and a rotation/one pocket background.


worst was basically the american effren decades before. died in his prime...when to the johnston city tournaments and wiped out all the legends....gambled against 40 balls being on the table and running them into one hole for the money all spaced out.....and busted it flat.

if worst had lived longer who knows what and how the game may have evolved prior to effrens arrival with more influence from the other disciplines


varner...he wasn't too shabby lol....and rempe won what 23 tournaments in a row once!?!?!?! thats pretty crazy insanse
 
Ken_4fun said:
I am thankful that I was able to see Efren play. He is the greatest player IMO, I have ever seen.

Bob Gibson was so dominating they had to change the game of baseball (lowering the height of the pitching mound), no other player can say they changed the game.

Efren changed the game of one-pocket, and also 9 ball in his kicking abilities. His play is the model for almost all top players today. Not many can say that.

JMO, I wish everyone the best of rolls.

Ken
Click to expand...
Let's not forget about Corey Duel who changed the game of nine ball. He was becoming so dominant one season that they changed the breaking rules. Who knows how far Corey would have gone if they had left the Texas Express rules in place in Nine ball.
 
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