California Cue-Makers - No More Ivory......

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Bavafongoul said:
Bravissimo HQ..........your post was spot on and speaks of real world experience & facts about legal ivory's availability. pricing & source reliability.......something that's apparently still foreign to some Azers,
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Bava, anything that comes out of your mouth in this thread is self serving. I pretty much find you to be one of the most insignificant posters to ever join AZ. All you ever post about is how much your cues are worth. I, for one, really don't care. Really.

I just wanted to get that off my chest. I feel better now.
 
HQueen said:
Shawn,

Everyone doesn't think like you. It really is that simple.
You are entitled to your beliefs. You are not entitled to force them on anyone else.

And as far as ivory prices going up? I recently made a purchase of ivory. First purchase in over 10 years as I am just getting back to making cues after a 10 year hiatus. The prices were EXACTLY the same as 10 years ago. From the same supplier. One who has turned in several people that tried to sell him illegal ivory. Because he has values and wants to protect not only elephants but the business of legal ivory.

You are involved in a hobby that built itself on ivory. From cues to billiard balls many thousands of elephants were killed. Without the use of ivory from many years I doubt billiards would have survived. It was THE basis for the tools of the game.

I have only purchased ivory from two different businesses. Both have solid reputations and are in full compliance with the law. I wouldn't take illegally obtained ivory if you gave it to me. No exceptions. As I stated before, ivory must be seasoned, for years. Anyone who would make a cue of unseasoned poached ivory will get what they deserve. First a bad reputation, then the legal consequences.

You will never rid the world of criminals. Trying to throw decent law abiding people in with them because they don't share your personal views is pathetic and despicable.
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No one has addressed 700,000 dead elephants between the years of 1979 and 1989, when ivory trading was legal. Are all of you ivory proponents blind? Or do you have no answer for that one? Still waiting for an answer, seeing as all of you seem to think legal ivory is the way to save the elephant.

Your nation was built on slavery. Times have changed. When I started playing pool, the balls were made from resin. I've never hit an ivory cueball in my life, and I hit with one cue that had an ivory ferrule, just to try it out. It didn't perform any better than a phenolic ferrule.

I understand most of you feel the right to kill something to put on the end of your cue. You also feel that you can drive the biggest truck on the road, play your music as loud as you want, and the government cannot tell you how to live your life, because you're "free". You aren't free - you're obnoxious. There are free people that make the right choices. I'm trying to make the right choice - given the choice between having a pretty cue, or my kids being able to see an elephant with their kids in 20 years, I choose the second option. The northern white rhino was hunted for its horn as well. There are 3 left in the world.

Anyone want to step up and take on the 700,000 dead elephants question? Bava? Skins? Sean? Bueller?
 
Wondering, is there a breakdown of the 700,000 dead elephants due to ?

Hunting
Loss of natural environment
Natural death
Other






Shawn Armstrong said:
No one has addressed 700,000 dead elephants between the years of 1979 and 1989, when ivory trading was legal. Are all of you ivory proponents blind? Or do you have no answer for that one? Still waiting for an answer, seeing as all of you seem to think legal ivory is the way to save the elephant.

Your nation was built on slavery. Times have changed. When I started playing pool, the balls were made from resin. I've never hit an ivory cueball in my life, and I hit with one cue that had an ivory ferrule, just to try it out. It didn't perform any better than a phenolic ferrule.

I understand most of you feel the right to kill something to put on the end of your cue. You also feel that you can drive the biggest truck on the road, play your music as loud as you want, and the government cannot tell you how to live your life, because you're "free". You aren't free - you're obnoxious. There are free people that make the right choices. I'm trying to make the right choice - given the choice between having a pretty cue, or my kids being able to see an elephant with their kids in 20 years, I choose the second option. The northern white rhino was hunted for its horn as well. There are 3 left in the world.

Anyone want to step up and take on the 700,000 dead elephants question? Bava? Skins? Sean? Bueller?
Click to expand...
 
Since you are hell bent on being belligerent: "After ten years it became clear that the supposedly well-regulated international trade in African elephant ivory was a failure. The African elephant population had been cut by more than half in those ten years, plummeting from 1.3 million in 1978, to only 600,000 in 1988. Elephants were being poached for their ivory tusks and this ivory was being laundered into the supposedly regulated trade to such an extent that, by 1988, it was estimated that over 90% of the ivory in international trade was from poached elephants. In response to this crisis, the U.S. Congress passed the African Elephant Conservation Act which gave the president the power to ban the import of African elephant ivory into the U.S. for commercial purposes."

Again, ILLEGALLY POACHED ELEPHANTS, were the cause of the decline. Again it was FAILURE to enforce the given rules by the nations of AFRICA. Do you need a road map Shawn? The problem is and has always been ENFORCEMENT, and the lack thereof.

Lets pull this into today.. the largest markets are those in Asia, where ivory has mystical powers, and they have superstitious beliefs that you cannot deregulate. This is the problem area, not the US, and certainly not items made from dead elephants killed many years ago. The Asian market is where the most illegal money gets pulled from, not from the US.

The US by making these laws are not going to do anything period, for an elephant today. Thus the problem with liberals, they can't face the real threat, so they try to govern the usage, hoping the threat goes away. However the threat is not here, and you can't govern the Asians.

JV



Shawn Armstrong said:
No one has addressed 700,000 dead elephants between the years of 1979 and 1989, when ivory trading was legal. Are all of you ivory proponents blind? Or do you have no answer for that one? Still waiting for an answer, seeing as all of you seem to think legal ivory is the way to save the elephant.

Your nation was built on slavery. Times have changed. When I started playing pool, the balls were made from resin. I've never hit an ivory cueball in my life, and I hit with one cue that had an ivory ferrule, just to try it out. It didn't perform any better than a phenolic ferrule.

I understand most of you feel the right to kill something to put on the end of your cue. You also feel that you can drive the biggest truck on the road, play your music as loud as you want, and the government cannot tell you how to live your life, because you're "free". You aren't free - you're obnoxious. There are free people that make the right choices. I'm trying to make the right choice - given the choice between having a pretty cue, or my kids being able to see an elephant with their kids in 20 years, I choose the second option. The northern white rhino was hunted for its horn as well. There are 3 left in the world.

Anyone want to step up and take on the 700,000 dead elephants question? Bava? Skins? Sean? Bueller?
Click to expand...
 
700,000 dead elephants.

There were killed.

What more addressing of that would you like?

I had zero to do with it.

You must certainly realize you have as much chance of changing my belief on ivory as I have of changing yours.

Excuse me, I have to crank up the loud music while I'm cleaning my guns to take to the range in my super large truck which gets terrible gas mileage.
 
The US by making these laws are not going to do anything period, for an elephant today. Thus the problem with liberals, they can't face the real threat, so they try to govern the usage, hoping the threat goes away. However the threat is not here, and you can't govern the Asians.

JV[/QUOTE]

Well said. And true.

Make something illegal and it ceases to be a problem, right?
That has worked so well for drugs. And ask Chicago how great it's been since they outlawed guns. Some people know absolutely nothing about human nature while claiming the opposite.
 
classiccues said:
Since you are hell bent on being belligerent: "After ten years it became clear that the supposedly well-regulated international trade in African elephant ivory was a failure. The African elephant population had been cut by more than half in those ten years, plummeting from 1.3 million in 1978, to only 600,000 in 1988. Elephants were being poached for their ivory tusks and this ivory was being laundered into the supposedly regulated trade to such an extent that, by 1988, it was estimated that over 90% of the ivory in international trade was from poached elephants. In response to this crisis, the U.S. Congress passed the African Elephant Conservation Act which gave the president the power to ban the import of African elephant ivory into the U.S. for commercial purposes."

Again, ILLEGALLY POACHED ELEPHANTS, were the cause of the decline. Again it was FAILURE to enforce the given rules by the nations of AFRICA. Do you need a road map Shawn? The problem is and has always been ENFORCEMENT, and the lack thereof.

Lets pull this into today.. the largest markets are those in Asia, where ivory has mystical powers, and they have superstitious beliefs that you cannot deregulate. This is the problem area, not the US, and certainly not items made from dead elephants killed many years ago. The Asian market is where the most illegal money gets pulled from, not from the US.

The US by making these laws are not going to do anything period, for an elephant today. Thus the problem with liberals, they can't face the real threat, so they try to govern the usage, hoping the threat goes away. However the threat is not here, and you can't govern the Asians.

JV
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Yet it's been stated that 80-90% of the the ivory in CALIFORNIA (that's the US, right?) is illegal ivory. Hmm...there goes the Asia theory. Your boy Stiles estimated the amount of illegal ivory that has entered the US has doubled since 2007. But it's China that's the problem. You're #2 on the world shit list, Joe. Face it, the US is as guilty.

Oh, and the years 2007-2014 were covered under your supposed "pre ban ivory only" era.

You seem to struggle with basic economic principles. The problem isn't ENFORCEMENT. The problem is DEMAND. Shit, drug enforcement has been in place for decades. Drugs are still a problem....right? Demand is, and always will be, the issue.
 
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HQueen said:
700,000 dead elephants.

There were killed.

What more addressing of that would you like?

I had zero to do with it.

You must certainly realize you have as much chance of changing my belief on ivory as I have of changing yours.

Excuse me, I have to crank up the loud music while I'm cleaning my guns to take to the range in my super large truck which gets terrible gas mileage.
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Freebird sounds good. Or Country Boy by Aaron Lewis. Better yet, how about duelling banjos? ;)

I know I won't change your mind regarding ivory. What cracks me up is dead elephants don't bother you, yet if I shot your dog, you'd probably kill me.
 
HQueen said:
The US by making these laws are not going to do anything period, for an elephant today. Thus the problem with liberals, they can't face the real threat, so they try to govern the usage, hoping the threat goes away. However the threat is not here, and you can't govern the Asian

Well said. And true.

Make something illegal and it ceases to be a problem, right?
That has worked so well for drugs. And ask Chicago how great it's been since they outlawed guns. Some people know absolutely nothing about human nature while claiming the opposite.
Click to expand...

The problem with guns and drugs have nothing to do with the legality of said items. Want proof? Handguns are illegal in Canada, except for use at a range. Know how many handgun related deaths there were in Canada last year? Less than 10. Chicago, that'd be considered a slow morning, and guns are legal in your country. I love when I hear about the war on terrorism in the US, yet the #1 killer of American citizens are other American citizens. You murder each other at a rate higher than any other country in the world.

The problem with guns and drugs is DEMAND. People want drugs. People want guns. That's why you have a problem with gun related violence in the US. It has nothing to do with legality. People want ivory. So, elephants will pay the price. And your demand is what causes the issue. You keep saying "well, MY ivory is legal". Good for you. The other ivory isn't. Paperwork has been forged. A lot of ivory people thought was legal turned out to be illegal. I'm quite sure most, if not all of them, also thought their ivory was pre ban.
 
I can tell you that in Taiwan/China, ivory figurine/art collectors are feeling a deep chill in the wind. Likewise the shark fin traders. The top-down politics of anti-corruption and anti-graft is being felt, and coupled with an emerging power's concern about appearances...let's just say that change in China will happen quicker than you might suppose.
 
If you like ivory in your cues. Fine.
Go campaign and get enough people to vote like you to change the law.
You live in a democracy.

I see bigots who like spout one sided theories & half truths and point the finger at other countries for everything that they disagree with. You know who you are. Everybody knows who you are. It's always the same people saying the same things. I actually pity you, even if you don't give a crap. But I don't give a crap even if you don't give a crap.
 
I try to be appreciative of all views on especially this subject. After dealing with the Alaskan F&W. My eyes were widely opened to reality. It's a tough call every day. I personally have been doing more with Elforyn but I'm not in the monster cue category nor do I ever want to be. I'd post an example but I'm not to smart with this smart phone. Lol
 
Show me where that is stated. Of course 100% of the "new" ivory would be illegal since it's been on the list since 1989. Again its ENFORCEMENT at the spot of the kill that is the issue.

The US is not number two, if you read the graph that was posted the US isn't in the top 10-12. The only reason liberals like to say the US is number two is because they lump every Asian country into ONE, that includes India and Pakistan. That graph shown proves how much a liberal will stretch the truth.

You have the problem understanding demand, and moreso that no matter how high the price gets driven, there are people that will pay it, happily. So you make the demand higher, and the price goes accordingly, tell me more elephants aren't going to get slaughtered as the payout becomes larger. You, like other liberals live on some fantasy world where you think regulations matter. They only matter at the point of the foul. For elephants, you need to go after the poachers, for guns, you need to go after ILLEGAL gun dealers, and CRIMINALS, for drugs, the dealers and growers. This is where every war on some jacktard cause goes awry. Because as it has been stated, every war on something has failed because the focus is not where it should be. Reagan was wrong, Clinton was wrong and Obama is WRONG.

Let me tell you why I think liberals can only think like this. To truly end the poaching they would need to get in bed, with gun toting conservatives. They need to better arm the rangers, they need to maybe have better rangers. This would mean they would have to buddy up to their worse fear. Stupidity at the end of the day.

BTW what happened Shawn, now that you know the fate of 700k elephants was due to poaching and the lack of enforcement of the laws, is there somewhere else you want to take this argument?

JV

Shawn Armstrong said:
Yet it's been stated that 80-90% of the the ivory in CALIFORNIA (that's the US, right?) is illegal ivory. Hmm...there goes the Asia theory. Your boy Stiles estimated the amount of illegal ivory that has entered the US has doubled since 2007. But it's China that's the problem. You're #2 on the world shit list, Joe. Face it, the US is as guilty.

Oh, and the years 2007-2014 were covered under your supposed "pre ban ivory only" era.

You seem to struggle with basic economic principles. The problem isn't ENFORCEMENT. The problem is DEMAND. Shit, drug enforcement has been in place for decades. Drugs are still a problem....right? Demand is, and always will be, the issue.
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Pal, here is the situation. Africa, corrupt government, all of Asia, 75% corrupt. I think you're over estimating the give -a- sh*tness of China.

Hope all is well Rog..

JV

buddha162 said:
I can tell you that in Taiwan/China, ivory figurine/art collectors are feeling a deep chill in the wind. Likewise the shark fin traders. The top-down politics of anti-corruption and anti-graft is being felt, and coupled with an emerging power's concern about appearances...let's just say that change in China will happen quicker than you might suppose.
Click to expand...
 
classiccues said:
Show me where that is stated. Of course 100% of the "new" ivory would be illegal since it's been on the list since 1989. Again its ENFORCEMENT at the spot of the kill that is the issue.

The US is not number two, if you read the graph that was posted the US isn't in the top 10-12. The only reason liberals like to say the US is number two is because they lump every Asian country into ONE, that includes India and Pakistan. That graph shown proves how much a liberal will stretch the truth.

You have the problem understanding demand, and moreso that no matter how high the price gets driven, there are people that will pay it, happily. So you make the demand higher, and the price goes accordingly, tell me more elephants aren't going to get slaughtered as the payout becomes larger. You, like other liberals live on some fantasy world where you think regulations matter. They only matter at the point of the foul. For elephants, you need to go after the poachers, for guns, you need to go after ILLEGAL gun dealers, and CRIMINALS, for drugs, the dealers and growers. This is where every war on some jacktard cause goes awry. Because as it has been stated, every war on something has failed because the focus is not where it should be. Reagan was wrong, Clinton was wrong and Obama is WRONG.

Let me tell you why I think liberals can only think like this. To truly end the poaching they would need to get in bed, with gun toting conservatives. They need to better arm the rangers, they need to maybe have better rangers. This would mean they would have to buddy up to their worse fear. Stupidity at the end of the day.

BTW what happened Shawn, now that you know the fate of 700k elephants was due to poaching and the lack of enforcement of the laws, is there somewhere else you want to take this argument?

JV
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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080505-us-ivory.html

Just do some reading, Joe.

I'd rather you ivory guys just come out and say "I buy ivory because I like ivory", than to preach this "socially responsible pre ban ivory" bullshit.
 

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classiccues said:
Here is the actual issue...

Why do we need to say it, I think that is kind of obvious, BUT the fact that 95% of it is probably pre-ban DOES mean something.

JV
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6 tonnes (12000 lbs) destroyed in Denver. 1 tonne destroyed in NY. That's 14000 lbs. Those two states alone put you at par with India, a country with over 3 times your population. But...you'll find a way to deflect blame, even with these numbers right in front of you. We haven't even looked at 48 other states.
 
SA.....of course you must be right......the guy who murders the use of prose in support his skewed thinking.........I am useless to the Forum....a distraction.......a nuisance.........that annoys you to no end which by itself makes remaining active on the Forum all the more worthwhile........and this post I created....not you.......has zoomed to 12 pages in > 4 days......seems like some folks on the Forum think this topic has some interest, even if it's only to see you to die the slow death of self-enbarassment from your genuinely ignorant minded approach to the truth.......I suggest you pay more attention to some of your peers whom are trying their best to bring you out of the dark ages.........and the price of my cues is not important to me at all......just the play and looks........and I got both of those prerequisites nailed down tight with the cues I own......do you? If so great and if not, then eat your heart out.
 
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