Confidence in Pool

[ENGLISH!]

Who was right about Fast Eddie?

Burt said he was a born loser.

Sarah, said, 'Oh no Eddie. You're a Winner!'

There's a link in a my sig line.



Eddie said, 'I'm the Best, Fats... even if you beat me, I'm still the Best.'. He was carried out drunk & broke.


Fats said, 'You win Eddie, I can't beat you.'

 

[(((Satori)))]

It can be a good thing when you turn it into a refusal & a motivation to not let the 'fear of' from becoming a reality. I was afraid of letting my teammates done, I turned it into a motivating force, so... I never really did.

We are each different & handle matters differently

Like I said, it is more about how we react to real life than it is to trying to make it into something that it is not.

I don't belief in clinical psychology. Clinical psychology at my wife's workplace would have resulted in us probably getting a divorced. We will be entirely happily married 35 years this year.

We are all individuals & unique no matter how much alike we may be.

Best 2 YOU & All.

PS Why are you no longer receiving PMs? Is it due to a certain following of a 3 letter acronym?

I have no idea. My account has been acting up lately. I couldnt post for a while either.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I have no idea. My account has been acting up lately. I couldnt post for a while either.

Maybe the CIA or IRS was taking a look at you.:wink:

 

[bstroud]

Hello sir,

I believe that you build confidence when you practice alone at the table. This is where knowledge comes from. Learning how to play the shots, what stroke you use, speed, spin, etc... Knowing how the shot should be played is what you need to be confident. You don't learn how to shoot by playing with other players. It will cause frustration, and hold your game back.

Nothing should change when you play "against" other players. Because when you are at the table, the only thing that changes is that another guy is sitting near the table. But he can't do anything while you are shooting.

So, you don't "beat" anybody. And nobody "beats" you. Just play the table. Our minds play games with us and they don't allow us to see things clearly. Trying to "beat" someone creates nothing else but "negative thoughts".

If someone wants to "beat" someone else, he could try boxing, brazilian jiu jitsu, krav maga, and other martial arts.

Panagiotis

I guess to don't play for serious money very often.
Winning is what's it all about.

You can't win playing by yourself.

If you think you will play your speed after someone put a 6 or 8 pac on you in a race to 11 you are dreaming.

Bill S.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I guess to don't play for serious money very often.
Winning is what's it all about.

You can't win playing by yourself.

If you think you will play your speed after someone put a 6 or 8 pac on you in a race to 11 you are dreaming.

Bill S.

I can't remember who said it.....someone was talking about how big the pockets were on a table. Buddy Hall said "if you want the table to tighten up, up the stakes".

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think like many personality traits, confidence can be defined in two ways ---

1.) An emotion at the present moment: "I am feeling confident today about shooting cut shots."

2.) An overall state of being: "I know that I have what it takes to be a great player," or " I know that I will always give 100 percent to the very end of the match."

The first one comes and goes, but the second one is the sustaining personality trait that I believe counts the most when developing your game and gets you through the heat of competition.

Isn't there also confidence in an ability? I think that can be gained by anybody and isn't a transient emotion.

This made me think of another post of yours about the cause and effect relationship between self confidence and ability. Do champions excel at multiple sports because they're self confident, or are they prime specimens physically able to excel at multiple sports and naturally confident of that ability? How can we know?

I enjoy your posts in this thread. Makes me wish I'd had coaching from you when it could have made a difference.

pj
chgo

 

[BRussell]

I haven't read the book but it seems that the description of defensive pessimism in the link you provided makes the term more tongue-in-cheek rather than literal.

Sports psychologist Jim Loehr refers to something similar which he calls 'no surprises.'
It's a technique that he recommends that competitors employ prior to a competition where they imagine everything that can go wrong and mentally work through it as if it were actually happening.

What that does is takes away the element of surprise and prepares the player to calmly deal with any negative incidents, since they've already rehearsed their response.

No the term (nor the concept) is not tongue in cheek. But your 'no surprises' description does sound similar.

Here's an alternative to self-confidence that I believe in: Carol Dweck calls it 'mindset,' and the idea is that you have to have a growth mindset, that you can learn and improve, rather than a fixed mindset, which is that people either have talent or not. She looks at it mostly with kids, but I think it applies to adults as well. You often hear people say something like "I'm not a math person" or "I can't draw," instead of "how do I learn that," and I bet people do it with pool too.

 

[(((Satori)))]

No the term (nor the concept) is not tongue in cheek. But your 'no surprises' description does sound similar.

Here's an alternative to self-confidence that I believe in: Carol Dweck calls it 'mindset,' and the idea is that you have to have a growth mindset, that you can learn and improve, rather than a fixed mindset, which is that people either have talent or not. She looks at it mostly with kids, but I think it applies to adults as well. You often hear people say something like "I'm not a math person" or "I can't draw," instead of "how do I learn that," and I bet people do it with pool too.

To me a growth mindset is one of if not the most important mindsets. People who have a fixed mindset have a great tendancy to stop when they face big obstacles on their way to reaching there goals. They feel as if it is no use that "they just dont have what it takes." That is why I try to convince Fran that self confidence is not something that you are just born with. Fran has the belief that self confidence is important, which it is.... but she also has the belief that it is just something that one person is born with. Believing that confidence is something that one is just born with is a fixed mindset. What happens to those that are not born with it? Are they hopeless? Of course they are not hopeless. Confident people think a certain way and anyone can learn to think like that can become self confident.

Fran is right though. People who percieve the world in a confident manner learn better when they believe that they can or at least that they can learn (aka growth mindset). Thinking this way allows them to train through the obstacles until they see results which gives them even more confidence. It is a good cylce to get into.

 

[FranCrimi]

Isn't there also confidence in an ability? I think that can be gained by anybody and isn't a transient emotion.

This made me think of another post of yours about the cause and effect relationship between self confidence and ability. Do champions excel at multiple sports because they're self confident, or are they prime specimens physically able to excel at multiple sports and naturally confident of that ability? How can we know?

I enjoy your posts in this thread. Makes me wish I'd had coaching from you when it could have made a difference.

pj
chgo

Thanks pj.

To me, the ultimate test of confidence is in competition. I've known great players who fell apart in competition. ( I have two in particular in mind.) So, yes, I guess they did have confidence in their abilities as long as they weren't competing.

But I would have to say that those players lacked overall confidence, unless there is such a thing as conditional confidence --- And in knowing them outside of pool, I observed that their lack of confidence did show through in other areas of their lives.

I do think that champions excel at multiple sports because they're self-confident and not the other way around. There may be certain physical characteristics that they have that may make them stand out in one sport over another, but they will attack each endeavor with the same enthusiasm and intensity because that's who they are.

 

[FranCrimi]

To me a growth mindset is one of if not the most important mindsets. People who have a fixed mindset have a great tendancy to stop when they face big obstacles on their way to reaching there goals. They feel as if it is no use that "they just dont have what it takes." That is why I try to convince Fran that self confidence is not something that you are just born with. Fran has the belief that self confidence is important, which it is.... but she also has the belief that it is just something that one person is born with. Believing that confidence is something that one is just born with is a fixed mindset. What happens to those that are not born with it? Are they hopeless? Of course they are not hopeless. Confident people think a certain way and anyone can learn to think like that can become self confident.

Fran is right though. People who percieve the world in a confident manner learn better when they believe that they can or at least that they can learn (aka growth mindset). Thinking this way allows them to train through the obstacles until they see results which gives them even more confidence. It is a good cylce to get into.

I don't believe that we're born confident or non-confident. I do think that it develops very early on in our lives, though, probably no later than childhood.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Thanks pj.

To me, the ultimate test of confidence is in competition. I've known great players who fell apart in competition. ( I have two in particular in mind.) So, yes, I guess they did have confidence in their abilities as long as they weren't competing.

This goes back to their thinking also. What caused them to choke? It could be their beliefs about failure which causes them to focus on what will happen rather than whats happening. Or it could be that they are intimidated by their opponent aka they dont believe they can beat them (self image) or some other reason but they all go back to their thinking and mental toughness is the key.

Again... If someone is having trouble competing... a coach can get this persons thoughts about competition right, get their game developed where they have the skill, and get their self image to a point to where they think they can win and this person will be confident come competition time imo.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I don't believe that we're born confident or non-confident. I do think that it develops very early on in our lives, though, probably no later than childhood.

For sure great parenting or childhood experiences help but what happens to the adult who learned to be insecure? They cant change?

I think they can.

 

[ps611846]

I guess to don't play for serious money very often.
Winning is what's it all about.

You can't win playing by yourself.

If you think you will play your speed after someone put a 6 or 8 pac on you in a race to 11 you are dreaming.

Bill S.

This is not the mentality of the great player. I am not a great player, maybe you are. Or you think you are. But I have warched some pool in my life. And I have done some work (about 10 years) on the "mind" and the thoughts that it creates.

If someone runs 6 or 8 "on me", he doesn't do anything to me. He is not "beating" me. He is playing the table better at this time and I can't do anything. Is there something you can do in this situation?

Not being able to play your speed, is a "mind" problem and it is caused by negative thoughts. "I will beat you", "I will take your money", "You can't play", "How is it possible to beat me?", etc... There is no player on this planet who can play his speed if he thinks like that.

If you think that this game is about "beating", then it is you who is dreaming.

P.S. I haven't seen you playing, but I know who you are and I respect you. I just have a different opinion.

Panagiotis

 

[(((Satori)))]

This goes back to their thinking also. What caused them to choke? It could be their beliefs about failure which causes them to focus on what will happen rather than whats happening. Or it could be that they are intimidated by their opponent aka they dont believe they can beat them (self image) or some other reason but they all go back to their thinking and mental toughness is the key.

Again... If someone is having trouble competing... a coach can get this persons thoughts about competition right, get their game developed where they have the skill, and get their self image to a point to where they think they can win and this person will be confident come competition time imo.

One last thing


When I talk about getting thoughts about competing right I am not talking about stuff like "a loss is as good as a win because you learn something" crap. That thought has it's place at times but lets face it... when the money is on the line a loss is not as good as a win. Winning is what we want. The stuff about "this is just like practice"... that to me is wishful thinking also. If someone has put years into working their way to a title fight and that fight comes along it is not just like practice and you want to win. You are going to feel the nerves and you have to tell yourself that you are going to use them to help you focus and compete.

https://youtu.be/4-FWJEAM6RA "This moment, we own it!"

The thing is to focus on the moment. To do this you have to revise the goal. The goal in your head can not be about winning even though that is what you want. In other words you can not focus on the outcome. When you are thinking "I must win" it can cause problems when things dont go your way. The key is to switch in your mind from having the goal of winning to having the goal of execution. When your goal becomes on execution and you focus on key thoughts you stay in the moment when you are up or down... getting bad rolls or good... or whatever the sitution you are focused on executing and letting the cards fall where they may. And the things you cant control like your opponent having control of the table or whatever... you have to learn to let that go.

 

[bstroud]

This is not the mentality of the great player. I am not a great player, maybe you are. Or you think you are. But I have warched some pool in my life. And I have done some work (about 10 years) on the "mind" and the thoughts that it creates.

If someone runs 6 or 8 "on me", he doesn't do anything to me. He is not "beating" me. He is playing the table better at this time and I can't do anything. Is there something you can do in this situation?

Not being able to play your speed, is a "mind" problem and it is caused by negative thoughts. "I will beat you", "I will take your money", "You can't play", "How is it possible to beat me?", etc... There is no player on this planet who can play his speed if he thinks like that.

If you think that this game is about "beating", then it is you who is dreaming.

P.S. I haven't seen you playing, but I know who you are and I respect you. I just have a different opinion.

Panagiotis

Panagiotis,

I appreciate your approach in trying to characterize the mind's working but you just have to have been there many times to understand mine.

I was playing 1000.00 a game 9 ball when I was only 17 years old. I bet my own. I didn't always have more that 5 barrels in my pocket. I had to force myself to win. I had no choice.

Pool is played in the mind but only to the extent that it controls your body.
All the practice in the World is not going to prepare you to win when the going gets tough.

You can not win playing yourself.

The easiest way to become a winner is by beating other players.

Bill S.

 

[Island Drive]

I'm a little hesitant to start a thread like this because of the backlash (well-deserved mind you) from my Heart/Passion post but I learned a lot from that post and am working on some problems I noticed about myself from reacting to that thread.

Anyway, I was talking to some friends who haven't been shooting much lately - one is a top amateur player, the other is a mid-level master player. The former hasn't been shooting that much lately and says that his game has suffered a lot, and the latter added that the explanation for this isn't bad fundamentals but your confidence and mental game becomes affected when you stop playing. I've heard this from other players as well so...

Where does your confidence in shooting originate? Is it more intuition that logical analysis, looking at the table, feeling the shots, and running more on auto-pilot (not, in the zone either) than analysis or is it something else?

I'm sure people say that confidence comes from shooting a shot enough times to "know" the shot but I think that then goes into auto-pilot instead of hoards of conscious effort, if that makes sense?

Basically, I'm asking if confidence is more auto-piloted "know-how" and "feel" than anything else for most players. If that's the case then I want to come up with something based in either psychology or spirituality to combat this trend to any degree because I, personally, feel that the mind, body, and spirit are strong and resourceful enough to neutralize the effects of not playing all the time.

For clarification, I am by no means saying it is entirely possible to stop this effect altogether. But, I do think it is possible to either slow down this effect from not playing or make it easier to regain your confidence quicker when you do return from a break of not playing.

I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts here. I'll be looking to compile opinions and experiences into a solid thesis.

-Richard

How many hours do you play each year?

 

[lorider]

Panagiotis,

I appreciate your approach in trying to characterize the mind's working but you just have to have been there many times to understand mine.

I was playing 1000.00 a game 9 ball when I was only 17 years old. I bet my own. I didn't always have more that 5 barrels in my pocket. I had to force myself to win. I had no choice.

Pool is played in the mind but only to the extent that it controls your body.
All the practice in the World is not going to prepare you to win when the going gets tough.

You can not win playing yourself.

The easiest way to become a winner is by beating other players.

Bill S.

compared to you i am just a nobody in the pool world but i have to say there is some validity to what the poster you disagree with states.

you stated in an earlier post that if someone put a 6 pack on you it could take the wind out of your sails ...so to speak. i guess it would to a lot of people but i agree with him. there is nothing you can do but sit in your chair and wait your turn....being down like that will affect your game ...only if you let it.

i have been faced with basically that same situation in apa 9 ball a few times. i have had a few opponents run the 1st rack and go all the way to the 9 in the 2nd rack before i ever get to the table. its a race to 38 and he has scored 18 ....almost half what he needs to win. that is the same anology of your point of some one putting a 5 or 6 pack on you in a race to 11.

now i have 2 choices when i walk up to the table...i can go with a defeatist attitude or i can play my game. i chose to play my game and have come back and won it .

before you reply ....thats just a league game its not like playing for money....i have another example for you.

i know its not the same as you playing 1,000.00 sets of 9 ball but its the same anology.

about 10 or 12 years ago i joined a money league team. we were in the finals. 2,50000 for 1st place and 1,500.00 for 2nd place. we are tied after 4 matches and my captain throws me ...a 3 at the time...they counter with an 8. i mutter ...damn i can't beat this guy.

my co-captain tells me sure you can. i said he's a friggin 8 !. my co-captain then gave me the best advice have ever received so far. don;t play your opponent...play the table.

i was all nervous and jittery knowingi could cost my team a 1,000.00 if i did not win. a lot of pressure for a banger like me. i decided to go to the bathroom 1st, while i was in there washing my face and hands i told myself ....it don't matter who your opponent is...just play what the table gives you.

well i won . not because i was a better player. it was because i was more confident than my opponent. you could see him visibly upset several times during the match because he did not expect my level of play since i was only a 3.

in other words he was a better player but had a weaker mind.

 

[FranCrimi]

For sure great parenting or childhood experiences help but what happens to the adult who learned to be insecure? They cant change?

I think they can.

With training and therapy they may have good days and learn how to manage their thoughts on their bad days, but I don't think there will ever be a true transformation.

But it's not such a terrible thing. Most of us function on a semi-insecure level. Managing it is the key.

 

[ENGLISH!]

One last thing


When I talk about getting thoughts about competing right I am not talking about stuff like "a loss is as good as a win because you learn something" crap. That thought has it's place at times but lets face it... when the money is on the line a loss is not as good as a win. Winning is what we want. The stuff about "this is just like practice"... that to me is wishful thinking also. If someone has put years into working their way to a title fight and that fight comes along it is not just like practice and you want to win. You are going to feel the nerves and you have to tell yourself that you are going to use them to help you focus and compete.

https://youtu.be/4-FWJEAM6RA

The thing is to focus on the moment. To do this you have to revise the goal. The goal in your head can not be about winning even though that is what you want. In other words you can not focus on the outcome. When you are thinking "I must win" it can cause problems when things dont go your way. The key is to switch in your mind from having the goal of winning to having the goal of execution. When your goal becomes on execution and you focus on key thoughts you stay in the moment when you are up or down... getting bad rolls or good... or whatever the sitution you are focused on executing and letting the cards fall where they may. And the things you cant control like your opponent having control of the table or whatever... you have to learn to let that go.

I think what you're talking about here is simply playing the game.

How did Jim Braddock ever beat Max Bear?

Perhaps we're crossing over back into the OP's other thread about what is Heart.

It can also be about wanting things for the right reasons.

Sort of like what Panos is talking about. Does one want to 'beat' someone or does one simply want to not lose & win in the doing of that while just playing the game.

It may sound corny, But... it is about how you play the game. Play it right & the wins will come. Play it wrong & one might be getting the wins but are they really a winner.

Psycho-babble can only go so far & when it promises the world, it is overreaching & becomes false.

Who am I? Am I me? Am I real or am I the product of a concocted mind f-word.

Sorry, but what is self help. Helping one's self has to come from within.

Sure sometimes individuals need help like encouragement or a little talk to help them see the truth & reality, like you're not bad or weak or whatever 'someone' has you thinking about yourself. That's not you. You're much much better than that, you just have to be your true self.

Sorry for the rant. Just food for thought.


Best Wishes to YOU & All.

 

[bstroud]

compared to you i am just a nobody in the pool world but i have to say there is some validity to what the poster you disagree with states.

you stated in an earlier post that if someone put a 6 pack on you it could take the wind out of your sails ...so to speak. i guess it would to a lot of people but i agree with him. there is nothing you can do but sit in your chair and wait your turn....being down like that will affect your game ...only if you let it.:>

I said nothing about a defeatist attitude. On the contrary when you face an opponent that runs a bunch of racks on you what you must do is FORCE yourself to get up and do better.

Gambling with the people I play it is routine to get hit with a 6 or 8 pac. You don't dwell on it, you just get up a play. You teach yourself to win no matter what happens. You do not learn this by practice. You do it by force of will.

Bill S.