Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[robsnotes4u]

I don't care about jump shots, I don't think jump cues should be used. Too easy and take away from safety play and when players make a mistake. Jump all you want with the playing cue.



I also don't like cue extensions much either. Play position to reach the shot or use the bridge. There should be rules for cues same as for cueballs. You can't change the cueball for a smaller one to go through a gap if the regular cueball won't fit. WPA and BCA should set stands for cues, not too long, not too short, and you use your playing cue through the match, except to break so you don't damage your playing tip.

Learn to play a tighter safety where they can't jump.


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[Runner]

It's funny I see a lot of people against jump cues on this forum and in different chats, but I haven't come across a player in tournaments that doesn't own and use a jump cue. Hell I've even witnessed the mighty Earl Strickland use a jump cue. You don't want to use 1 fine then don't but don't try to tell me I can't use 1. Learn to play tighter safeties.

Earl hates jump cues... he jumps with his break cue or playing cue.

I personally don't like jump cues, don't own one, and do quite well without one.
I don't like the tendency of some players to go right to the short stick without looking at kicking and/or safeties first.

 

[12squared]

I'm not a big fan of jump cues, but for now they are legal and another tool in the bag. Personally, SVB's jump after the break at hill-hill on the final day with the balance of the losing the MC was great drama and I'm glad it happened. It was not an easy jump as he had to stretch towards the middle of the table instead of a standard run of the mill jump. I loved it.

Dave

 

[12squared]

Learn to play a tighter safety where they can't jump.

I hate comments like this ^^^^^^^^

Sometimes the position is after the break or the player hooks themselves or just sh*t lucky leave. What does that have to do w/how you leave your opponent?

 

[Shannon.spronk]

Longer cues for those with large wingspans are not what I was talking about, more of extending a cue to make playing a shot easier. While I'd love to take the reach advantage tall people have that is a bit silly LOL. Me being 5' 6" I don't like playing those that can reach across table easier than me, but oh well LOL

The thing is that your equipment should not give you such a clear advantage over the game or layout of the table, but your skill at using it should. There is of course no way you can take away an advantage that a tall person has over a shorter one to reach shots and limiting them to like a 60" max cue may cause them to be cramped in their ability to hit the ball properly, but there should be some limits to keep equipment from winning for you.

Ok i think I understand what you are saying a little better now. You dont like it when a player plays poor shape and then instead of using the rake he grabs a 14 inch extension for the back of his cue so that he can reach the cue ball. I can understand that.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Ok i think I understand what you are saying a little better now. You dont like it when a player plays poor shape and then instead of using the rake he grabs a 14 inch extension for the back of his cue so that he can reach the cue ball. I can understand that.

So Shane would have to take the extension off of his playing cue, even though he doesn't use it, and Earl would have to use a shorter cue to play with, as well, and all of those balance rite extensions would have to be thrown away.

Why don't we just get rid of the rake as well? Everyone should learn to play with both hands, agreed?

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

The reason the other pros use them is because they would be at a disadvantage vs those that do use them. It's a matter of being competitive to the rest of the field.

You can't freeze up against a ball every safe, and those jump cue rods can jump from like an inch away from a ball anyway. That's the other argument those that like jump cues use, but it's about equally as unrealistic as getting rid of chalk.

I don't know why anyone wants to see pros hop over balls with very little skill required so much as to be for jump cues. Even the better players in leagues that I see are often against jump cues, they use them because others do.

You are completely clueless. I'd like to see you execute some of the jump shots Shane has. He has perfect control on his jump shots. Every time I see people complain about jump cues there is no logical argument to back it up. Of every Pro/Semipro/AA player I've talked to about jumping, the only ones who were against it were the ones who couldn't control the cue ball. So why should I listen to people who lack the skill required?

Why do you open your mouth without understanding the basic flaw for everyone hating jump cues. Everyone who hates jumping lacks the skill to prevent their opponents from jumping, and they lack the skill to jump properly. It's a 1-2 combo for an uneducated flow of hate. Look at golf. Those big head drivers when they hit the scene caused as much hate from old school golfers as the jump cue is for old school pool players.

I'm sorry your safety game is so weak that you've had people jump out of your best safeties. I'm sorry that your jumping skill is so weak that your hate flows freely. Maybe instead of *****ing about how a jump cue is so "easy" to use, you learn how easy it is to prevent someone from even using a jump cue.

Of all participants of the Mosconi Cup, Shane, Niels, and Darren are the only ones who know how to control during jumping. Karl and Albin both jump better than the rest of the US team. Mike, Justin, Sky and Nick are all equal in my opinion. All know the requirements to jump with control, but just don't have the execution down. Corey should never jump. But based on your attitude there's no difference between Corey and Shane's jumping ability. Which is laughable.

You lack the knowledge to debate whether or not jump cues should be allowed or not.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You are completely clueless. I'd like to see you execute some of the jump shots Shane has. He has perfect control on his jump shots. Every time I see people complain about jump cues there is no logical argument to back it up. Of every Pro/Semipro/AA player I've talked to about jumping, the only ones who were against it were the ones who couldn't control the cue ball. So why should I listen to people who lack the skill required?

Why do you open your mouth without understanding the basic flaw for everyone hating jump cues. Everyone who hates jumping lacks the skill to prevent their opponents from jumping, and they lack the skill to jump properly. It's a 1-2 combo for an uneducated flow of hate. Look at golf. Those big head drivers when they hit the scene caused as much hate from old school golfers as the jump cue is for old school pool players.

I'm sorry your safety game is so weak that you've had people jump out of your best safeties. I'm sorry that your jumping skill is so weak that your hate flows freely. Maybe instead of *****ing about how a jump cue is so "easy" to use, you learn how easy it is to prevent someone from even using a jump cue.

Of all participants of the Mosconi Cup, Shane, Niels, and Darren are the only ones who know how to control during jumping. Karl and Albin both jump better than the rest of the US team. Mike, Justin, Sky and Nick are all equal in my opinion. All know the requirements to jump with control, but just don't have the execution down. Corey should never jump. But based on your attitude there's no difference between Corey and Shane's jumping ability. Which is laughable.

You lack the knowledge to debate whether or not jump cues should be allowed or not.

Some good points. Some, you're way off.

I think the best jumper on both teams was Ouschan, hands down. He drilled a down the rail cut shot with a jump cue that was tough. He speared nearly every jump shot he attempted.

As far as hating on the jump cue because you can't play a good safety, modern jump cue technology has made it that you pretty much have to freeze the ball to get safe. I'm pretty good with a jump cue, but I don't like them in the game. That being said, they're legal in the leagues and events that I play, so I would be handicapping myself if I didn't own one, or know how to use one. It's a little frustrating having to roll the cue ball 17'+ on a table, ending up 6" behind a blocker, and watching a guy just pogo out of it, while someone offers the advice "you should have played a better safety". All in all, I think it works out in the wash. I have been lucky on a kick shot, where I hit the ball and hooked him. People seem to whine less when that happens, even though you sometimes get the same result with the short cue.

It's in the game for now. Better that players just accept it, and deal with it. Otherwise, play in leagues and events that don't allow jump cues. The pros seem to be ok with it, otherwise they'd be petitioning for a change.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Some good points. Some, you're way off.

I think the best jumper on both teams was Ouschan, hands down. He drilled a down the rail cut shot with a jump cue that was tough. He speared nearly every jump shot he attempted.

As far as hating on the jump cue because you can't play a good safety, modern jump cue technology has made it that you pretty much have to freeze the ball to get safe. I'm pretty good with a jump cue, but I don't like them in the game. That being said, they're legal in the leagues and events that I play, so I would be handicapping myself if I didn't own one, or know how to use one. It's a little frustrating having to roll the cue ball 17'+ on a table, ending up 6" behind a blocker, and watching a guy just pogo out of it, while someone offers the advice "you should have played a better safety". All in all, I think it works out in the wash. I have been lucky on a kick shot, where I hit the ball and hooked him. People seem to whine less when that happens, even though you sometimes get the same result with the short cue.

It's in the game for now. Better that players just accept it, and deal with it. Otherwise, play in leagues and events that don't allow jump cues. The pros seem to be ok with it, otherwise they'd be petitioning for a change.

While you have the correct attitude that people just need to accept the fact that it's part of the game, you still a little short on understanding the whole situation. If you're leaving your opponent 6" behind an impeding ball and they're jumping out of it, the problem is simple. You left the ball they need to hit too close to the impeding ball. Doesn't matter how close you leave the cue ball locked up sometimes. It's the distance from the ball required to be hit from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" behind an impeding ball jumping to something 6' away, that's 100x harder to hit than if the ball was 3' away.

But again if you're not trying to play a lockup safe every time you're playing a safe that's the old school way of thinking. Not matter how many of these old school anti jump cue people keep at it, eventually they'll be gone and with it the idea that the jump cue is bad for the sport.

Takes Shane's hill-hill jump on the one. If that 8 ball would have fully been in the way, I doubt he would have jumped it. Instead it was a half ball jump. But then again had the 2 ball been sitting elsewhere he probably wouldn't have jumped either. So many things need to be checked off before a jump shot can be executed. Not the same for a kick.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

While you have the correct attitude that people just need to accept the fact that it's part of the game, you still a little short on understanding the whole situation. If you're leaving your opponent 6" behind an impeding ball and they're jumping out of it, the problem is simple. You left the ball they need to hit too close to the impeding ball. Doesn't matter how close you leave the cue ball locked up sometimes. It's the distance from the ball required to be hit from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" behind an impeding ball jumping to something 6' away, that's 100x harder to hit than if the ball was 3' away.

But again if you're not trying to play a lockup safe every time you're playing a safe that's the old school way of thinking. Not matter how many of these old school anti jump cue people keep at it, eventually they'll be gone and with it the idea that the jump cue is bad for the sport.

Takes Shane's hill-hill jump on the one. If that 8 ball would have fully been in the way, I doubt he would have jumped it. Instead it was a half ball jump. But then again had the 2 ball been sitting elsewhere he probably wouldn't have jumped either. So many things need to be checked off before a jump shot can be executed. Not the same for a kick.

No, I get the situation. Let's say I get left tough on the 7 ball after a safety by my opponent. I don't have a lot of choice as to which ball to hide behind - it's the 8 or the 9. The table doesn't necessarily give me the layout to roll the 7 behind the 9, and hide the cueball behind the 8. Full table of balls, and playing safe - yes, I have options. But it can be a little frustrating to roll a cueball 4 rails to tuck behind a blocker, having the cueball travel 24 feet, end up 6" short of PERFECT, and having someone say "you should have played a better safe". Going off 4 rails, and ending up 6" from perfect is a damn good shot, in my books.

You can't always play a lock up safe.

The other thing - it's easier to hit a ball that's further away from the blocking ball you need to jump. Let's say I put the 1 ball 1' behind the 2 ball, and you need to jump the 2. Your ball will still be airborne when it hits the 1. You may launch the cueball off the table. If it's 5' past the 2 ball, the cueball won't be bouncing when it gets there. Less chance of a foul.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

You can't always play a lock up safe.

In the situation you described, I'd rather leave the cue ball on a rail near the 8 or 9 and distance to the 7. With the 7 ideally on the rail. Much harder to return that safe than trying to hide them to allow a jump.

The other thing - it's easier to hit a ball that's further away from the blocking ball you need to jump. Let's say I put the 1 ball 1' behind the 2 ball, and you need to jump the 2. Your ball will still be airborne when it hits the 1. You may launch the cueball off the table. If it's 5' past the 2 ball, the cueball won't be bouncing when it gets there. Less chance of a foul.

No, no it's not. If I'm 1" behind a ball jumping at a ball 5' away you better already be getting out of your chair to take ball in hand because I will not be hitting the required ball at all. If the ball I'm going for is more than 2' away I'm pretty much in desperation mode jumping for that. Your lack of understanding what is and isn't possible to jump has shown. Please remove yourself from a conversation you don't have knowledge in.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

I like a little bit of old school and new school. Keep the jump cue but bring back two shot foul push out.

 

[pt109]

I'm biased here....I hate jump cues...:angry:

First they banned shaft jumping
...also using the butt with a special bumper
'scooping' is also not allowed
Let's go all the way and ban jump cues...

Jump with the cue you're playing with or go home

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

In the situation you described, I'd rather leave the cue ball on a rail near the 8 or 9 and distance to the 7. With the 7 ideally on the rail. Much harder to return that safe than trying to hide them to allow a jump.



No, no it's not. If I'm 1" behind a ball jumping at a ball 5' away you better already be getting out of your chair to take ball in hand because I will not be hitting the required ball at all. If the ball I'm going for is more than 2' away I'm pretty much in desperation mode jumping for that. Your lack of understanding what is and isn't possible to jump has shown. Please remove yourself from a conversation you don't have knowledge in.

Here's your original statement:

It's the distance from the ball required to be hit from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" behind an impeding ball jumping to something 6' away, that's 100x harder to hit than if the ball was 3' away

Sorry - that's just plain wrong. On so many levels. Argue it all you want.

Blocker is 1' in front of cueball, object ball is 6' away from the blocker - that's an easy hit.

Blocker is 5' away from the cueball, object ball is 6" behind the blocker, nearly impossible.

But, keep telling me how wrong I am.

Jump shots are situational. There is no "one size fits all" explanation.

 

[jazznpool]

It's silly watching pro players use an amateur helper cue.

I'd like to know how the outcome would have been if the players were not jumping with short cues and making hits or pocketing balls due to that.

I agree, jump cues are a mockery of the game. If you can do it with your playing cue, great, otherwise they don't belong and never have. Just a gimmick.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I agree, jump cues are a mockery of the game. If you can do it with your playing cue, great, otherwise they don't belong and never have. Just a gimmick.

The only problem is, do you allow a player to use their break cue? Boyes used a full length cue to make a spectacular jump draw shot. The cue had a phenolic tip that allows a much easier jump shot. That opens the realm of shorter break cues. Perhaps a lighter 54" break cue with phenolic tip.

 

[sammylane12]

It's silly watching pro players use an amateur helper cue.

I'd like to know how the outcome would have been if the players were not jumping with short cues and making hits or pocketing balls due to that.[/QU

I agree 100% with this post. Pros should not be able to escape a safety by using a tricked up cue so they can jump over a ball 2" away. Make them kick out of it, if they want to jump let them use their own cue.

 

[asbani]

I was actually going to start a thread about this same thing, but not just for the Mosconi Cup, but for all pool tournaments, it's ridiculous.

My friend and I were watching the Mosconi Cup and we've discussed this same subject during the final day, It's petty how a player puts himself in trouble, then with an easy tool get out of the trouble with no penalties whatsoever, it's really sad.

As Grady Mathews (RIP) said in the past, and I quote "I can easily teach a guy to jump balls in 30mins, but it takes years to teach him how to kick correctly" ----- And Grady is right, jumping is so easy with that short cue, it should never been allowed at all.

The problem is, when a jump cue is used and the pro makes the ball, some of the fans think "Oh god this is beautiful shot" when its in fact not, but thats how amuators see jump shots sadly, they think its' a great shot and looks nice, but its destroying the game actually, only if the amuator know how easy it is to jump, then he wouldn't clap when a pro makes a jump shot with that short cue.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Here's your original statement:

Sorry - that's just plain wrong. On so many levels. Argue it all you want.

Blocker is 1' in front of cueball, object ball is 6' away from the blocker - that's an easy hit.

Blocker is 5' away from the cueball, object ball is 6" behind the blocker, nearly impossible.

But, keep telling me how wrong I am.

Jump shots are situational. There is no "one size fits all" explanation.

When I went to quote your post that this is in response to, you have it listed as 1" which is 1 inch. It seems you edited the post somewhere between my reading it going to quote it. If I'm 1' (1 foot) away from an impeding ball, I should have no problem controlling the cue ball whether the ball I'm going for is 6" behind the impeding ball or 7'. If you don't feel that you don't have that much control when 1' away, then my statement stands. You don't have the proper knowledge of jumping to be talking about whether jump cues should be banned or not. Here's a bonus that I learned while practicing jumps. I can jump the cue ball and stop it dead. Can you do that?

The closer the cue ball becomes to the impeding ball, the more difficult it becomes to hit balls farther away. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball, I'd put my chances to make the jump higher when the target ball is closer than 2' from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball and I'm needing to hit a ball 6' away from the impeding ball. I will have zero cue ball control. Anything I do the cue ball will be completely gone by the time it reaches the object ball. Move the cue ball back to 1' away from the impeding ball and the 6' jump becomes easier to contact than the 2'.

Jump shots aren't really situational at all. The closer the cue ball is to an impeding ball, the more you have to jack up. Angle in is angle out. If I need the cue ball to clear a 1" gap, that means my my angle out is around 75degrees. That means my jump cue needs to contact the cue ball at a greater than 75degree angle. The more power I add sends the cue ball higher than it does farther. The less angle the more distance I get.

Jump cues have done nothing but elevate the level of play. Safeties are being played better. It's why the commentators are so bad these days. They just don't have a clue of what truly is possible. The pressure added from not being able to play certain safeties because of jump cues has caused players to work that much more on the more difficult runout shots. The people I see daily that don't like jump cues are the ones that refuse to work on their game. It's their arrogance that drives their opinion, not facts.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

When I went to quote your post that this is in response to, you have it listed as 1" which is 1 inch. It seems you edited the post somewhere between my reading it going to quote it. If I'm 1' (1 foot) away from an impeding ball, I should have no problem controlling the cue ball whether the ball I'm going for is 6" behind the impeding ball or 7'. If you don't feel that you don't have that much control when 1' away, then my statement stands. You don't have the proper knowledge of jumping to be talking about whether jump cues should be banned or not. Here's a bonus that I learned while practicing jumps. I can jump the cue ball and stop it dead. Can you do that?

The closer the cue ball becomes to the impeding ball, the more difficult it becomes to hit balls farther away. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball, I'd put my chances to make the jump higher when the target ball is closer than 2' from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball and I'm needing to hit a ball 6' away from the impeding ball. I will have zero cue ball control. Anything I do the cue ball will be completely gone by the time it reaches the object ball. Move the cue ball back to 1' away from the impeding ball and the 6' jump becomes easier to contact than the 2'.

Jump shots aren't really situational at all. The closer the cue ball is to an impeding ball, the more you have to jack up. Angle in is angle out. If I need the cue ball to clear a 1" gap, that means my my angle out is around 75degrees. That means my jump cue needs to contact the cue ball at a greater than 75degree angle. The more power I add sends the cue ball higher than it does farther. The less angle the more distance I get.

Jump cues have done nothing but elevate the level of play. Safeties are being played better. It's why the commentators are so bad these days. They just don't have a clue of what truly is possible. The pressure added from not being able to play certain safeties because of jump cues has caused players to work that much more on the more difficult runout shots. The people I see daily that don't like jump cues are the ones that refuse to work on their game. It's their arrogance that drives their opinion, not facts.

Nope. Never edited anything from 1". You must have misread. Any jump shot from 1" is nearly impossible to hit anything unless it's just on the other side of the blocker.

The rest of your message is pure comedy. Looking forward to seeing you on the Mosconi team next year.