10-ball may be hurting pool in America

[SJDinPHX]

Here's an alternative way to play 9 or 10 ball which takes the lucky break factor out of the equation.

Player A breaks.
Player B nominates the First Ball to be potted after the break.
Player A may shoot at this ball or send player B in.

The breaker will want to spread the balls wide and park whitey center table so player B has limited 50/50 choices. The breaker will have the slight advantage of having a choice on the first shot.

On a scratched or fouled break, the nomination and choice is reversed.

Colin

Colin, I certainly respect the contributions you've made to pool in general.. But let me ask, what you are trying to accomplish here?..Do we really need more rule modifications, to further confuse potential new viewers ?..Wouldn't our (or your) time, be better spent sophisticating the rules to the most popular pool game in the world, that everyone already knows how to play?..Yes, I'm refering to 8ball!..And yes, I am going to keep hammering away, at the "single game theory"!

Every sport, or game in the world, has undergone the process of 'fine tuning' rules, but name one, that isn't still instantly recognizable, as the game it started out to be..But more importantly..It is still only 'ONE GAME'!..Pool may be the only game in the universe, that has dozens of completely different rule sets, played on many different size tables, with new games added almost monthly!

I see this as something pool may never overcome, if at some point steps aren't taken to eliminate the confusion the game has been beset with, for the last 100 years!..It will almost certainly never be accepted as an Olympic sport!..An entity that welcomes such exciting games/sports, as "Curling" and "Long Jumping"???..And I welcome anyone to show me where my thinking is flawed, in that regard!

Dick

 

[vjmehra]

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#statistics
10b should be played on 10ft like Bigfoot.
Should be alternate break, ref rack with wooden rack like WCOP



EXACTLY.
It is ridiculous that folks think fans/spectators/viewers should play.
How many MMA or boxing fans/viewers actually know how to fight?
How many soccer fans/viewers actually know how to play?
How many American Idol fans/ viewers actually know how to sing?

I totally agree 10-Ball ideally should be on a 10 footer, but realistically how many are there around?

I'm sure in the US you have more, but I've never even seen one in the UK!

Also ref racking is fine for large pro tournaments, but a non-starter for local events.

 

[7forlife]

Was gonna start a thread but since this is still live i'll just add.
Ok so back to poker as some one mentioned and the card cam being the turn around for it (maybe/maybe not) I said to myself "there's no way to get that in pool", well I was wrong.

I played for the second time tonight some pill pool and let me tell you that was about as excited as one could be, the tension was there from the break. So as i'm driving home it hit me.... What about some pill pool where the viewer are the only ones who see what everyones ball is just like they have in poker where you can see everyones hand. The rules would have to be modified a bit naturally but I think that it's almost the perfect blend of almost 8 ball and 15 ball rotation mixed with that poker "on the flop or what ever the last card is called"

I know this is all just banter and no ones going to run off with any ideas and start something but if you have not played PILL POOL i beg you to try it just for argument sake and chime in with what you think.

 

[SJDinPHX]

"Sorry Beib's......But I believe that would set pool back, to the old, boring, painful to watch, 14.1 days, as far as spectator interest, and enjoyment goes! .....At least, both 9 & 10 ball, are mercifully shorter!"

old, boring 14.1? you mean the game that was played When Pool Was Actually Popular?

the facts say ya got the boring part backwards, my friend: before we were brainwashed for 30 years that straight pool is too slow, people actually followed pool and pool players.

Sorry sir, my apologies.. I tend to forget, that there are actually still a few die-hard 14.1 fans, on the East coast.
I will say this, no one 'brain washed' me!..I'm older than dirt, and straight pool and Billiards, have been basically dead since I first began playing in the fifties!..9ball, banks, and one pocket sealed their fate in gambling circles long ago!..That could be why guys like Boston Shorty, Jersey Red and Richie Ambrose, all headed West or South, to where the real action was! :wink:

Peace, Bro!

PS..I suppose 14.1 is still a great game...for practicing or funsies!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Was gonna start a thread but since this is still live i'll just add.
Ok so back to poker as some one mentioned and the card cam being the turn around for it (maybe/maybe not) I said to myself "there's no way to get that in pool", well I was wrong.

I played for the second time tonight some pill pool and let me tell you that was about as excited as one could be, the tension was there from the break. So as i'm driving home it hit me.... What about some pill pool where the viewer are the only ones who see what everyones ball is just like they have in poker where you can see everyones hand. The rules would have to be modified a bit naturally but I think that it's almost the perfect blend of almost 8 ball and 15 ball rotation mixed with that poker "on the flop or what ever the last card is called"

I know this is all just banter and no ones going to run off with any ideas and start something but if you have not played PILL POOL i beg you to try it just for argument sake and chime in with what you think.

Not bad Mr.7..It may need a lot of work, but it certainly has as much, or more potential, then a lot of other stuff being tossed around in this thread!

PS..First comes the 'flop', then the 'turn' and the last card is called the 'river'!

 

[7forlife]

Not bad Mr.7..It may need a lot of work, but it certainly has as much, or more potential, then a lot of other stuff being tossed around in this thread!

Glad you think so. I never gave the game much though but with limited options and/or competition at one of the places that I play I jumped in on this game with a few friends/regulars and played again tonight with another two guys again friends/regulars and boy i am hooked.
The level of control that is needed being a 14.1 player now was insane and I can really see this helping my game. Now i am much better than the guys i played with and granted no one was playing and safes (not even sure if it's allowed) but I would LOVE to play this game with some equally matched player "or better would be better" allowing safeties and the like.
Mind Blown.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Colin, I certainly respect the contributions you've made to pool in general.. But let me ask, what you are trying to accomplish here?..Do we really need more rule modifications, to further confuse potential new viewers ?..Wouldn't our (or your) time, be better spent sophisticating the rules to the most popular pool game in the world, that everyone already knows how to play?..Yes, I'm refering to 8ball!..And yes, I am going to keep hammering away, at the "single game theory"!

Every sport, or game in the world, has undergone the process of 'fine tuning' rules, but name one, that isn't still instantly recognizable, as the game it started out to be..But more importantly..It is still only 'ONE GAME'!..Pool may be the only game in the universe, that has dozens of completely different rule sets, played on many different size tables, with new games added almost monthly!

I see this as something pool may never overcome, if at some point steps aren't taken to eliminate the confusion the game has been beset with, for the last 100 years!..It will almost certainly never be accepted as an Olympic sport!..An entity that welcomes such exciting games/sports, as "Curling" and "Long Jumping"???..And I welcome anyone to show me where my thinking is flawed, in that regard!

Dick

Your post lead me to the question... "What was the original game of pool".I found an interesting article about it. I guess it started out as a game played outside on the lawn and then was moved indoors on a table, then "banks" on the table were used to keep balls from rolling off. Sticks, tips, chalk, rubber rails, etc. were all added to create what is similar to what we have today. Once the equipment reached similar conditions to what we have today the games were still quite different it seems. Some 4 ball game was played in America and then games kept being invented from there. I guess "pool" will always be made up of several different games much like poker, or track and field, or fighting. I doubt that there will ever be one game for pool and "the game" will most certainly not be the original game that pool started out to be.


I understand your basic point. You believe pool needs to be one game and that game should be the most recognized game at this time which you say is 8-ball. I think poker is a great example of why this beleif is not true though. Poker is made up of different games and the game that became most successful was not the most recognized game of poker at that time. The average viewer learned hold em as the game became more successful. Besides pool will never be just one game anyway.

 

[(((Satori)))]

One more thing. The game that I liked best for becoming a televised sport in all seriousness was bonus ball. It had many stats for a sports geek to keep track of, many ways for a sports gambler to bet... for example they could bet on the games or matches or one of many prop bets, it had plenty of excitement for the drama, the team aspect, and the season aspect, it had a lot. It was the best imo but that just goes to show how we are all different.

P.S. bonusball was not any more complicated to learn than American football.

 

[SJDinPHX]

One more thing. The game that I liked best for becoming a televised sport in all seriousness was bonus ball. It had many stats for a sports geek to keep track of, many ways for a sports gambler to bet... for example they could bet on the games or matches or one of many prop bets, it had plenty of excitement for the drama, the team aspect, and the season aspect, it had a lot. It was the best imo but that just goes to show how we are all different.

P.S. bonusball was not any more complicated to learn than American football.

I guess I had never noticed, that you were a Bonus Ball fan!..Sure, they had some great concepts, with 3/4 man teams, city vs city, etc!..But the game itself was so confusing, that even the players and the ref's had trouble understanding it!..It was based on the ego of one man, who surely lost a lot of money trying to promote it...I still maintain, had he chosen to make the game 8ball, (as Trudeau did) he may well have been successful!

Yes. I will always be a proponent of the 'single game' aspect, but you seem to be missing the point on why I support that theory!..It really has nothing to do with poker, the origin of pool, stats, or American football!..It has to do with "identity"!..How many different kinds of Tennis, golf, football, baseball, or even 'ping-pong' are there? The answer is simple..there is only "ONE" for each game!

You seem to be a very intelligent guy, and I enjoy these discussions with you!..Please give me the same courtesy, and realize I am only after a way to better promote pool, to a market I believe is waiting out there for the right product to come along! (and it sure as hell ain't gonna be Bonus Ball )..I don't even personally care for 8ball, that much!..But its a decent game, and I look at it as putting our best foot forward!..We would be promoting a game that everyone on the planet, already understands, and is very familiar with!..Therefore, most would enjoy watching..What could be simpler?

 

[(((Satori)))]

I guess I had never noticed, that you were a Bonus Ball fan!..Sure, they had some great concepts, with 3/4 man teams, city vs city, etc!..But the game itself was so confusing, that even the players and the ref's had trouble understanding it!..It was based on the ego of one man, who surely lost a lot of money trying to promote it...I still maintain, had he chosen to make the game 8ball, (as Trudeau did) he may well have been successful!

Yes. I will always be a proponent of the 'single game' aspect, but you seem to be missing the point on why I support that theory!..It really has nothing to do with poker, the origin of pool, stats, or American football!..It has to do with "identity"!..How many different kinds of Tennis, golf, football, baseball, or even 'ping-pong' are there? The answer is simple..there is only "ONE" for each game!

You seem to be a very intelligent guy, and I enjoy these discussions with you!..Please give me the same courtesy, and realize I am only after a way to better promote pool, to a market I believe is waiting out there for the right product to come along! (and it sure as hell ain't gonna be Bonus Ball )..I don't even personally care for 8ball, that much!..But its a decent game, and I look at it as putting our best foot forward!..We would be promoting a game that everyone on the planet, already understands, and is very familiar with!..Therefore, most would enjoy watching..What could be simpler?

Let me go ahead and get this out of the way. Poker is as good of an example and just as relevant in this discussion as the games that you listed. It just doesnt fit your requirement of being a game with one set of rules. Now days though hold em is probably the most recognized just as the football that is played in stadiums is much more recognized than Arena football. I still think that one pool game can stand out as the most popular without having other games get in the way of its popularity. I think 9-ball could just as easily be successful as 8-ball what is more important imo like I said earlier is catching peoples interest and I believe the way to do that is through emotions. Let them have fun at the events, let the events have pressure the fans can sense, let the fans become invested on if their favorite player wins, etc.

Now thanks for the compliment. I enjoy the discussions too. What we do agree on is that there is a market out there for pool. People love sports. The key again imo is to hook them in and again the game imo is, I wouldnt say irrelevant, but of secondary importance.

I

 

[BobTfromIL]

Too me the problems isn't the game it just the fact that when you watch the top pro's they are just too good. No matter how you change the game give them enough time and they will figure it out.

 

[Smooth]

twisted 8

to build on Dick's thoughts.... 8 ball base game, but scoring is not just a single win or loss, but instead uses a points system.

Call shot 8 ball... 5 points for making the 8 legally and one point for each opponents ball you make consecutively after the 8.

5 points minimum, 12 points max per game... race to 50.

It adds some serious strategic twists to the game.

Do you break out opponents clusters during your run at the risk of not getting out?

Do you take your ducks early just to get the points off the table when you would normally leave them as recovery balls for aggressive early play?

The masses would easily understand the game, and pros are working with all 15 balls.... creativity is a must.

We play it for money... dollar per point... but it is a fun twist to a simple game.

 

[vjmehra]

One more thing. The game that I liked best for becoming a televised sport in all seriousness was bonus ball. It had many stats for a sports geek to keep track of, many ways for a sports gambler to bet... for example they could bet on the games or matches or one of many prop bets, it had plenty of excitement for the drama, the team aspect, and the season aspect, it had a lot. It was the best imo but that just goes to show how we are all different.

P.S. bonusball was not any more complicated to learn than American football.

But for pool to really take off it needs to have global appeal, not US specific appeal (although that is of course a large part of it).

To me, the Matchroom approach seems sensible, 9-Ball, short races, alternate break and importantly no call shot...why?

Yes it upsets the purists, but this is about appealing to a wider audience and part of all live sport (and poker) is luck!

You just need to look at the Mosconi Cup to see that although luck can have an impact in short races, over time it evens out.

 

[vjmehra]

Too me the problems isn't the game it just the fact that when you watch the top pro's they are just too good. No matter how you change the game give them enough time and they will figure it out.

But thats why short races and alternate break are good, in a long race, call shots, winner breaks, the luck element is reduced and the better player is likely to win.

In a shorter format, with alternate breaks and no call shots, there is more luck involved, so a less skillful player has a chance.

Now the best players will still make less mistakes under pressure, but every mistake is amplified due to the short races, so it gives high flying amateurs who hit form a chance on any given day, which is great for tv.

Also its important to note, that for any mixed tournaments (i.e. those that are amateur and pro), its the amateurs that pay into the pot, so they need to feel they have a chance to bother turning up!

 

[BRussell]

But thats why short races and alternate break are good, in a long race, call shots, winner breaks, the luck element is reduced and the better player is likely to win.



In a shorter format, with alternate breaks and no call shots, there is more luck involved, so a less skillful player has a chance.

Thumbs up. It's understandable that pro players in regional tournaments want rules that take luck out as much as possible. But we should resist that if we want pool to have wider appeal as a spectator sport. Luck adds excitement and unpredictability.

 

[Chicagoplayer]

The difference-

Here's a thread that will sure anger a few forum members.

I’m tiring of ten ball on nine foot tables. As a fan, I find it far less interesting to watch than nine ball and as one who’d like to see American pool rise from the ashes, I see it obstructing the progress of our players in some respects.

On the nine foot tables, the ten ball break is way too predictable and far more predictable than the nine ball break. The result is that too many racks start with the exact same easy shot. This is neither fair nor exciting to watch, and the high accu-stats numbers that arise are not just a sign of good play but also a sign that the layouts are easier than the racks typically encountered in nine-ball, such as those at the Mosconi a couple of weeks ago. Fewer difficult shots are attempted, the patterns are a bit easier, and one can more easily get by without playing well in the moves game.

At a time when America has fallen way behind Europe and Asia, and in no small part due to inefficient pattern play and inferior defense and kicking, rack-your-own ten-ball with the magic rack does not offer sufficient opportunities to develop those skills for those who have mastered the ten ball break.

Ten ball was once meant to solve the problem of the nine ball break being too easy with respect to making the corner balls, but from my vantage point, ten ball is a failed experiment, and the ten ball layouts encountered at the highest level are becoming very repetitious. Top breakers know where five of the balls are going, with the corner balls going four rails toward the bottom corners, the one going toward the top corner pocket and the balls below the one ball tracking toward the two side pockets. Rack your own, combined with the use of the magic rack, permits great control of what will transpire after the break, and that has made ten ball quite boring at times.

From start to finish, I attended both the US Open 9-ball and the Accu-stats Make It Happen 10-ball, and I saw the most elite players stringing more racks in ten ball than in nine ball. Not at all surprising to me, but it does suggest that it may take a more complete skill set to succeed at nine ball. That’s a matter of opinion, but what’s not a matter of opinion is this – on nine foot tables, I’d much rather watch nine ball.

Hi Sjm,

I found the difference is how it's played.

Far more American's play 10 Ball as they play 9 Ball and do they do not differentiate.
It's just 9 Ball with one more ball to them.

10 Ball is a call shot game.
9 Ball is usually played Texas Express rules-and no call pocket on the 9.

If I had my druthers, all matches would be ref racked, filmed and racked with wood.
done.

This summer I'd pay to watch you on the carom table for a bit though!
You do hit 'em nice.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Let me go ahead and get this out of the way. Poker is as good of an example and just as relevant in this discussion as the games that you listed. Let them have fun at the events, let the events have pressure the fans can sense, let the fans become invested on if their favorite player wins, etc...
....What we do agree on is that there is a market out there for pool. People love sports. The key again imo is to hook them in and again the game imo is, I wouldnt say irrelevant, but of secondary importance.

I

I wish I could get you to ease up on the references to 'other' games. Yes, poker IS relevant in making my case!.. In that it never gained popular acceptance until they zeroed in on one game! Jack Binion, with help from Harrah's..were the driving force behind that theory, and yes, the card cam greatly enhanced it.

The very few movers and shakers in pool, cannot even seem to get a professional entity organized, (like the PGA) to deal with ESPN, or potential sponsor's!..The ladies have done a much better job of that, then the men have...Also, coincidentally, they have pretty much stuck to one game..9ball..to showcase their product!

I also agree with emotional fan involvement (ie; hometown players, etc.) being a key to the success of any sports endeavor!..However, if we can't even get a Pro org. up and running, (the BCA is a joke) to maybe vote on and decide what game to best present to the public, I don't see any chance for pool becoming anything more than it is now.. Just a way for millions of guy's, to get out of the house for a few beers!..What a waste, when we have so much more to offer! :frown:

PS..If I may ask, what part of the country/world do you live in? I noticed earlier, you cited the NFL as "American Football"..Do you live abroad?

 

[SJDinPHX]

But for pool to really take off it needs to have global appeal, not US specific appeal (although that is of course a large part of it).

To me, the Matchroom approach seems sensible, 9-Ball, short races, alternate break and importantly no call shot...why?

Yes it upsets the purists, but this is about appealing to a wider audience and part of all live sport (and poker) is luck!

You just need to look at the Mosconi Cup to see that although luck can have an impact in short races, over time it evens out.

I think if you research it a little, you will find that 8ball is a very popular game in the UK, (second only to snooker) and also in Asia/China..Granted its played on different size (and style) tables, but it is still instantly recognizable, as 8ball....Luck will always be a big factor, in any game with round, or oblong balls...That is a given!

PS..Rules may be even harder to standardize, than accepting a specific game!...Pool player's world wide, are notoriously adverse to change!

 

[sonny_burnett]

I really don't care for 10 ball myself.

I wonder if short races of straight pool would spark any interest?

It could not be much worse.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[vjmehra]

I think if you research it a little, you will find that 8ball is a very popular game in the UK, (second only to snooker) and also in Asia/China..Granted its played on different size (and style) tables, but it is still instantly recognizable, as 8ball...Luck will always be a factor, in any game with round, or oblong balls !

PS..Rules may be even harder to standardize, than accepting a specific game! Pool player's world wide, are notoriously
adverse to change!

Agreed on the rules standardisation and yes 8-Ball is far more popular here, but thats largely due to English pool, rather than the US version (although admittedly most newbies will simply play the same rules on a US 9 foot table).

However my point was that Matchroom clearly feel that 9-Ball is the game for TV and seeing what they've achieved with pool, snooker, darts etc. I'm inclined to trust them if they think thats the way forward