10-ball may be hurting pool in America

[sjm]

Here's a thread that will sure anger a few forum members.

I’m tiring of ten ball on nine foot tables. As a fan, I find it far less interesting to watch than nine ball and as one who’d like to see American pool rise from the ashes, I see it obstructing the progress of our players in some respects.

On the nine foot tables, the ten ball break is way too predictable and far more predictable than the nine ball break. The result is that too many racks start with the exact same easy shot. This is neither fair nor exciting to watch, and the high accu-stats numbers that arise are not just a sign of good play but also a sign that the layouts are easier than the racks typically encountered in nine-ball, such as those at the Mosconi a couple of weeks ago. Fewer difficult shots are attempted, the patterns are a bit easier, and one can more easily get by without playing well in the moves game.

At a time when America has fallen way behind Europe and Asia, and in no small part due to inefficient pattern play and inferior defense and kicking, rack-your-own ten-ball with the magic rack does not offer sufficient opportunities to develop those skills for those who have mastered the ten ball break.

Ten ball was once meant to solve the problem of the nine ball break being too easy with respect to making the corner balls, but from my vantage point, ten ball is a failed experiment, and the ten ball layouts encountered at the highest level are becoming very repetitious. Top breakers know where five of the balls are going, with the corner balls going four rails toward the bottom corners, the one going toward the top corner pocket and the balls below the one ball tracking toward the two side pockets. Rack your own, combined with the use of the magic rack, permits great control of what will transpire after the break, and that has made ten ball quite boring at times.

From start to finish, I attended both the US Open 9-ball and the Accu-stats Make It Happen 10-ball, and I saw the most elite players stringing more racks in ten ball than in nine ball. Not at all surprising to me, but it does suggest that it may take a more complete skill set to succeed at nine ball. That’s a matter of opinion, but what’s not a matter of opinion is this – on nine foot tables, I’d much rather watch nine ball.

 

[sixpack]

Here's a thread that will sure anger a few forum members.

I’m tiring of ten ball on nine foot tables. As a fan, I find it far less interesting to watch than nine ball and as one who’d like to see American pool rise from the ashes, I see it obstructing the progress of our players in some respects.

On the nine foot tables, the ten ball break is way too predictable and far more predictable than the nine ball break. The result is that too many racks start with the exact same easy shot. This is neither fair nor exciting to watch, and the high accu-stats numbers that arise are not just a sign of good play but also a sign that the layouts are easier than the racks typically encountered in nine-ball, such as those at the Mosconi a couple of weeks ago. Fewer difficult shots are attempted, the patterns are a bit easier, and one can more easily get by without playing well in the moves game.

At a time when America has fallen way behind Europe and Asia, and in no small part due to inefficient pattern play and inferior defense and kicking, rack-your-own ten-ball with the magic rack does not offer sufficient opportunities to develop those skills for those who have mastered the ten ball break.

Ten ball was once meant to solve the problem of the nine ball break being too easy with respect to making the corner balls, but from my vantage point, ten ball is a failed experiment, and the ten ball layouts encountered at the highest level are becoming very repetitious. Top breakers know where five of the balls are going, with the corner balls going four rails toward the bottom corners, the one going toward the top corner pocket and the balls below the one ball tracking toward the two side pockets. Rack your own, combined with the use of the magic rack, permits great control of what will transpire after the break, and that has made ten ball quite boring at times.

From start to finish, I attended both the US Open 9-ball and the Accu-stats Make It Happen 10-ball, and I saw the most elite players stringing more racks in ten ball than in nine ball. Not at all surprising to me, but it does suggest that it may take a more complete skill set to succeed at nine ball. That’s a matter of opinion, but what’s not a matter of opinion is this – on nine foot tables, I’d much rather watch nine ball.

Well stated. I have never really played 10-ball much because it came to prominence after I stopped competing regularly. I have started practicing it though the last year or so and I came to a very similar conclusion.

I can't speak to their motives with complete authority but I think that the people who came up with 10-ball wanted to solve two perceived problems with 9-ball. The slop(luck) during the game and the break.

If you are a top player those two things bother you. I can understand why you hate to lose to a c-player who lucks in a couple of 9 balls, gets an easy combo set up on the two for another game and then gets a 9-ball break to win the match.

But that really doesn't happen all *that* often. I know we can all cite 15 times that it happened to us....but out of how many matches? It happens just often enough to give the c-player hope that he can get a few rolls and compete with a good player. That keeps the c-player coming to the tournaments.

I think that popular games involve luck for a reason. You can argue how much luck is involved in poker, for example. Yet you can't deny it exists. And the reason so many thousands of people play in the world poker championship is because they feel like if they get a few good cards they can go deep and get a good payday.

I felt like there were a whole bunch of players playing in 9-ball bar table tournaments that had no chance to win. But they could make enough balls to have fun and win some games as well as maybe get a few rolls and beat a good player. They are willing to wager/spend their $50-$75 for that.

With 10-ball. Especially on 9' tables with the tight pockets we see everywhere now. I think the weaker players have very little hope. Their odds are probably about the same. But their perception of their odds is significantly diminished. And so they don't enter. The strong regional tours are the same 35-50 players each stop + a handful of locals. I remember seeing 100+ players for Texas express 9-ball bar table stops back in the day. If you didn't get your entry in well in advance you might not get in.

Lower level players pay the bills and higher level players set the rules. And they set them to their competitive benefit at the peril of their financial benefit IMO.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I don't think it's fair to compare the numbers of an open tournament to that of an invitational.

No offense to the following players, but if the Make it Happen event instead had a line up of

Corey
Schmidt
Oscar
Archer
Mike Davis

Then I don't think we would have seen such high TPA ratings.

 

[Celtic]

Rotation pool as a whole hurt pool in America and has done so for decades.

Pool needs to figure out that the professional level of pool needs to provide appropriately professional level difficulty equipment akin to the challenge snooker provides. People need to actually appreciate the base difficulty of a game and feel the sense that any shot can be missed at any time if they are to be expected to watch the game and be kept captivated by it.

Once the equipment is appropriately tough we can see the pros play the game that the general public has "never" stepped away from despite professional pool and the Color of Money doing its best to market rotation pool. 8-ball is the "only" game the general public know and understand and is to this day the only game they give even the smallest shit about. Pool promoters and marketers have spent decades trying to force feed rotation pool onto the world with ZERO success and it is idiotic at this point.

We need tables appropriately tough to challenge pros at 8-ball, and then we need to finally start to see that game pushed and publicized.

 

[sjm]

I don't think it's fair to compare the numbers of an open tournament to that of an invitational.

No offense to the following players, but if the Make it Happen event instead had a line up of

Corey
Schmidt
Oscar
Archer
Mike Davis

Then I don't think we would have seen such high TPA ratings.

Agreed, an that's pretty much noted in my post, in which I made it crystal clear that I was referring only to the elite.

From start to finish, I attended both the US Open 9-ball and the Accu-stats Make It Happen 10-ball, and I saw the most elite players stringing more racks in ten ball than in nine ball. Not at all surprising to me, but it does suggest that it may take a more complete skill set to succeed at nine ball. That’s a matter of opinion, but what’s not a matter of opinion is this – on nine foot tables, I’d much rather watch nine ball.

 

[Eric.]

Stu, i think you are forgetting what it was like with 9 ball when the one ball is racked on the spot and they use the magic rack (or the balls were tapped in). Basically, every ball was just as predictable PLUS you could hit the rack at "stop shot speed".

If anything, with 10 ball, you still have to hit the rack with a decent stroke. If it werent for that, i would agree with you completely.


Eric

 

[Keith Jawahir]

I'm still in favor of using all 15 balls that come in the box (for the pros).

I'm actually pretty surprised the "big package" guys haven't blown up this thread yet.

At the amateur level, I do prefer to play 10-ball because I believe in being punished for my mistakes, and likewise for my opponent. I'm pretty desensitized to 9-ball now, I just shrug my shoulders when an opponent shits a ball in.

One rule I would add, is from the Earl/Shane 10-foot match. Game ball has to be the last off the table. If it's combo'ed early, it spots and the shooter keeps his turn.

 

[RiverCity]

Here's a thread that will sure anger a few forum members.

I’m tiring of ten ball on nine foot tables. As a fan, I find it far less interesting to watch than nine ball and as one who’d like to see American pool rise from the ashes, I see it obstructing the progress of our players in some respects.

On the nine foot tables, the ten ball break is way too predictable and far more predictable than the nine ball break. The result is that too many racks start with the exact same easy shot. This is neither fair nor exciting to watch, and the high accu-stats numbers that arise are not just a sign of good play but also a sign that the layouts are easier than the racks typically encountered in nine-ball, such as those at the Mosconi a couple of weeks ago. Fewer difficult shots are attempted, the patterns are a bit easier, and one can more easily get by without playing well in the moves game.

At a time when America has fallen way behind Europe and Asia, and in no small part due to inefficient pattern play and inferior defense and kicking, rack-your-own ten-ball with the magic rack does not offer sufficient opportunities to develop those skills for those who have mastered the ten ball break.

Ten ball was once meant to solve the problem of the nine ball break being too easy with respect to making the corner balls, but from my vantage point, ten ball is a failed experiment, and the ten ball layouts encountered at the highest level are becoming very repetitious. Top breakers know where five of the balls are going, with the corner balls going four rails toward the bottom corners, the one going toward the top corner pocket and the balls below the one ball tracking toward the two side pockets. Rack your own, combined with the use of the magic rack, permits great control of what will transpire after the break, and that has made ten ball quite boring at times.

From start to finish, I attended both the US Open 9-ball and the Accu-stats Make It Happen 10-ball, and I saw the most elite players stringing more racks in ten ball than in nine ball. Not at all surprising to me, but it does suggest that it may take a more complete skill set to succeed at nine ball. That’s a matter of opinion, but what’s not a matter of opinion is this – on nine foot tables, I’d much rather watch nine ball.

Spot on..... tap tap tap!

 

[Cameron Smith]

Rotation pool as a whole hurt pool in America and has done so for decades.

Pool needs to figure out that the professional level of pool needs to provide appropriately professional level difficulty equipment akin to the challenge snooker provides. People need to actually appreciate the base difficulty of a game and feel the sense that any shot can be missed at any time if they are to be expected to watch the game and be kept captivated by it.

Once the equipment is appropriately tough we can see the pros play the game that the general public has "never" stepped away from despite professional pool and the Color of Money doing its best to market rotation pool. 8-ball is the "only" game the general public know and understand and is to this day the only game they give even the smallest shit about. Pool promoters and marketers have spent decades trying to force feed rotation pool onto the world with ZERO success and it is idiotic at this point.

We need tables appropriately tough to challenge pros at 8-ball, and then we need to finally start to see that game pushed and publicized.

I agree if you want to market pool, it has to be 8 ball. I'd prefer rotation or American Rotation, but 8 ball is pool as far as the public is concerned. I'd be happy if Chinese 8 ball made big in roads actually.

As for 10 ball, I always felt that moving towards 10 ball alienated the general public even further than it already was.

 

[Teacherman]

It's impossible to hurt pool in America.

 

[Johnnyt]

It use to be 14.1 and some kind of 15 ball rotation in most poolrooms. Then the bars started getting 7' bar boxes where 8 ball was the big game. 9 ball has been around for many years, as has 10 ball. 9 ball got very popular after COM and when TV wanted to jump on board, the game got changed to Texas Express and 14.1 was too boring for the mainstream crowd on TV.

Until American pool has pro teams like other sports, betting on pool becomes legal, and has an organization...pool is just spinning its wheels until the tires wear out. Johnnyt

 

[Mr. Bond]

If you're gonna play rotation, play( call shot) 15 ball or Chicago.
And if you're gonna play 15 ball, you might as well play 14.1
Either way, they are easy (rule) games that the public can follow .
A nine or ten ball run, even in order, is not that impressive anymore.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Rotation pool as a whole hurt pool in America and has done so for decades.

Pool needs to figure out that the professional level of pool needs to provide appropriately professional level difficulty equipment akin to the challenge snooker provides. People need to actually appreciate the base difficulty of a game and feel the sense that any shot can be missed at any time if they are to be expected to watch the game and be kept captivated by it.

Once the equipment is appropriately tough we can see the pros play the game that the general public has "never" stepped away from despite professional pool and the Color of Money doing its best to market rotation pool. 8-ball is the "only" game the general public know and understand and is to this day the only game they give even the smallest shit about. Pool promoters and marketers have spent decades trying to force feed rotation pool onto the world with ZERO success and it is idiotic at this point.

We need tables appropriately tough to challenge pros at 8-ball, and then we need to finally start to see that game pushed and publicized.

I am in total agreement with your views on 8ball, as being the game that should be promoted! It has stood the test of time, and is still the only game understood and instantly recognized, by ALL players, and the general public. With just a few minor rule modifications, it can also be the most competitive, and enjoyable to watch.

Pool has, for years, had way too many games, on too many different size tables! I was preaching that to Jersey Red, Ronnie Allen, (and anyone else who would listen) 40 years ago. Our favorite game was always 1pocket, and advanced players can still enjoy that, or any other game, when gambling with each other. But, to advance the acceptance of pool on TV to the masses, 8ball is the only way to go! The 'single game' theory, may also be what has kept pool out of the Olympics!

For example Poker on TV, never really caught on until they zeroed in on one enjoyable game..Texas Hold 'em. Then it
really took off big time. You are right on, when you say pool has wasted way too many years, trying to force-feed other
games to "Joe Six-pack"!

 

[watchez]

I am in total agreement with your views on 8ball, as being the game that should be promoted! It has stood the test of time, and is still the only game understood and instantly recognized, by ALL players, and the general public. With just a few minor rule modifications, it can also be the most competitive, and enjoyable to watch.

Pool has, for years, had way too many games, on too many different size tables! I was preaching that to Jersey Red, Ronnie Allen, (and anyone else who would listen) 40 years ago. Our favorite game was always 1pocket, and advanced players can
still enjoy that, or any other game, when gambling with each other. But, to advance the acceptance of pool on TV to the masses, 8ball is the only way to go!

For example Poker on TV, never really caught on until they zeroed in on one enjoyable game..Texas Hold 'em. Then it
really took off big time. You are right on, when you say pool has wasted way too many years, trying to force-feed other
games to "Joe Six-pack"!

You were doing good til you used poker as your example. It's success had nothing to do with singling out one game.

 

[Rockin' Robin]

9-ball is the greatest thing to happen to pool in the last 50 years. Texas Express rules made the game much easier to understand for the newbies, and much more fun to play.

Bring the big $ entry fees like Texas Hold-em and watch the interest increase.

Most want to make the game more difficult....that is going backwards. Make the game even easier and more will play. 5 inch pockets would be a good start.

Playing for a thou a game or maybe a ball, and the pockets tend to shrink up a tad.

Don't take the luck out of the game....Maybe if Chris Moneymaker completely shit out on a world champ and took down the cash.....would be a god send to this game......then Joe Average would get off the stool and say.....Where do I sign up?

 

[SJDinPHX]

You were doing good til you used poker as your example. It's success had nothing to do with singling out one game.

What, in your opinion, was it then? No one would sit for hours, watching draw, lowball, or 5 card stud! (or any other 'variety' of games) With Hold 'em, the WSOP and $ games, went from a hundreds of players, to tens of thousands almost overnight!

 

[TATE]

Ultimately, I think the real issue is template racking for pros. They're too predictable. I like templates but they are too easy for pros.

 

[westcoast]

The problem with pro 8 ball is that the game is too easy for the pros. They basically never miss. To make it challenging you'd have to make the pockets like 3.5 to 3 7/8 inches and play on a 10 foot table.

 

[GaryB]

Rotation pool as a whole hurt pool in America and has done so for decades.

Pool needs to figure out that the professional level of pool needs to provide appropriately professional level difficulty equipment akin to the challenge snooker provides. People need to actually appreciate the base difficulty of a game and feel the sense that any shot can be missed at any time if they are to be expected to watch the game and be kept captivated by it.

Once the equipment is appropriately tough we can see the pros play the game that the general public has "never" stepped away from despite professional pool and the Color of Money doing its best to market rotation pool. 8-ball is the "only" game the general public know and understand and is to this day the only game they give even the smallest shit about. Pool promoters and marketers have spent decades trying to force feed rotation pool onto the world with ZERO success and it is idiotic at this point.

We need tables appropriately tough to challenge pros at 8-ball, and then we need to finally start to see that game pushed and publicized.

You mean Trudeau was right about something. Character aside he almost pulled it off and what a boon to pool that would have been. A qualifier I watched at Hard Times was some of the best pool I have ever seen.

SJM, to what do you attribute the lack of Golden Breaks during the Mosconi Cup?

Initially I thought that 10 Ball was definitely going to add a degree of difficulty but it seems that the top players quickly figured out the break. Your post solidified some things that I had occasionally been thinking about. Thanks.

 

[SJDinPHX]

The problem with pro 8 ball is that the game is too easy for the pros. They basically never miss. To make it challenging you'd have to make the pockets like 3.5 to 3 7/8 inches and play on a 10 foot table.

I must respectfully disagree. Sure, smaller pockets would make any game more challenging...But there are other ways to have trouble getting out in 8ball, as many or more than 9 ball. A lot more traffic for one thing, and usually more clusters to contend with. Thats why 'C' players rarely get out from the break.

No need for 10 footers, they are becoming quite scarce anyway. I can't believe Diamond even geared up to make them? Top level players are going to make almost any game 'look' easy, if the balls lay right! I am realistic enough to know my favorite game, (one pocket) could never be made 'viewer friendly'! I firmly believe, the key to marketing pool successfully, is simplicity and spectator enjoyment!

PS..BTW GaryB, Trudeau WAS right!..Even Bonus Ball might have made it with 8ball, instead of a confusing new game..Do you know anyone who can't tell a 'stripe' from a 'solid'?