10-ball may be hurting pool in America
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This is Ames' mister.Short answer...NO!..That ship sailed away 60 yrs. ago!
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IPT made 8 ball at the pro level watchable, and it was interesting to any casual player or observer. Everybody knows that game, and even though there were lots of B/Rs, there were plenty of games that weren't run outs, too. Just YouTube it, it worked just fine. Add some rowdy loud audiences, scantily clad models to escort out the players, lots of woofing, and you just might have what made MC and darts work for Matchroom.
Agreed on the rules standardisation and yes 8-Ball is far more popular here, but thats largely due to English pool, rather than the US version (although admittedly most newbies will simply play the same rules on a US 9 foot table).
However my point was that Matchroom clearly feel that 9-Ball is the game for TV and seeing what they've achieved with pool, snooker, darts etc. I'm inclined to trust them if they think thats the way forward
Yes, Barry Hearn is a great business man, and an excellent promoter.. However, are you aware that none other than 9ball champion, Mike Sigel, was the one who convinced Kevin Trudeau to go with 8ball, instead of 9ball, when he was forming the IPT?...If Trudeau (and his bad rep) had not gotten greedy, and caused parimutual wagering laws to be changed, the 'IPT' could well have been the best thing that ever happened to pool!..Then all the things we've been discussing, would be moot points..We'd probably be in hog heaven by now!
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Well I can't disagree with you that 8-Ball is more widely known, definitely here in the UK anyway and I suspect globally too!
Personally I think 9-Ball is more exciting to watch, but of course that is personal taste and the more important thing is of course finding what the majority prefers!
I guess if the IPT had worked out, as you say things could be very different, however it was not to be :-(
If you get a chance check out some of the Eurotour stuff on Kazoom or the free IPA (Blackball) or GB9 (9-Ball) streams for our UK tours. The former is pretty much all pro's, the latter two include more amateur games, but the latter stages are all pretty high end play.
Personally I think 9-Ball is more exciting to watch, but of course that is personal taste and the more important thing is of course finding what the majority prefers!
I guess if the IPT had worked out, as you say things could be very different, however it was not to be :-(
If you get a chance check out some of the Eurotour stuff on Kazoom or the free IPA (Blackball) or GB9 (9-Ball) streams for our UK tours. The former is pretty much all pro's, the latter two include more amateur games, but the latter stages are all pretty high end play.
That sounds like a winner to me.
You're too kind, my friend. Perhaps a hookup at Chris' is in order this coming June.
As far as bringing pool back as a mainstream sport, IPT was the best chance the game had. When you disregard the fact that the whole thing was basically a giant pyramid scheme, it IMO did everything right. 8 ball, slow cloth, fairly tough tables lots of action going on with switching cameras between tables etc. I also think 3 commentators is a good way to keep the commentary dynamic, although I never cared for Trudeaus commentary. Also I'll never know why the US broadcasters always insists on having one nitwit in the commentary who seems to be completely unaware of what is going on. This has been a standard procedure since the ESPN days.
I don't know if the IPT ever was anything other than a classic Trudeau con, but no matter how slick the production was, it failed to catch the publics eye. Pool is pretty much doomed.
10 ball is THE WORST POSSIBLE game to promote pool to the general public. It's slow. It's boring. It's unknown to everybody. Lots of sparring in the start of games and then completely anticlimatic towards the end of the rack. Very little luck, which is bad because everyone loves a fluke. What is the least lucky, most skilled cue game of all, with only difficult shots (relative to other cue games)? 3 cushion! How many 3-cushion tournaments have you watched lately? Making games harder is not the way to catch the eyes of the public. Promote the cxxp out of the games they know, and make double sure that they understand what is going on, and what is at stake. Really build up the characters, let people get to know the players and play up their origins/nationality/home state. Make heroes, villains and magnify rivalries etc. Team games are nice too.
I would propose 8 ball, almost exactly like the IPT did it, but make it "take what you make". This adds an element of luck (hard luck, mostly) which people love. Maybe it would be possible to start small and build up gradually? If that can't be done, then I'm out of ideas.
I don't know if the IPT ever was anything other than a classic Trudeau con, but no matter how slick the production was, it failed to catch the publics eye. Pool is pretty much doomed.
10 ball is THE WORST POSSIBLE game to promote pool to the general public. It's slow. It's boring. It's unknown to everybody. Lots of sparring in the start of games and then completely anticlimatic towards the end of the rack. Very little luck, which is bad because everyone loves a fluke. What is the least lucky, most skilled cue game of all, with only difficult shots (relative to other cue games)? 3 cushion! How many 3-cushion tournaments have you watched lately? Making games harder is not the way to catch the eyes of the public. Promote the cxxp out of the games they know, and make double sure that they understand what is going on, and what is at stake. Really build up the characters, let people get to know the players and play up their origins/nationality/home state. Make heroes, villains and magnify rivalries etc. Team games are nice too.
I would propose 8 ball, almost exactly like the IPT did it, but make it "take what you make". This adds an element of luck (hard luck, mostly) which people love. Maybe it would be possible to start small and build up gradually? If that can't be done, then I'm out of ideas.
I have checked it out..some of it is pretty watchable..However, quite often I cannot even access Kazoom, or some of the other streams. Most require a link to your cable provider, and I cut off my cable service several mos. ago! I rarely watch TV any more.. My high end computer, and my new phone, are my only link to the modern world.
...However my point was that Matchroom clearly feel that 9-Ball is the game for TV and seeing what they've achieved with pool, snooker, darts etc. I'm inclined to trust them if they think thats the way forward
People often point to the Mosconi Cup (and the Cup's short-race slop 9-Ball) as an example of great success in attracting a large viewing audience for pool. And since the Cup has been played now every year since 1994, that might seem like a reasonable thing to believe, along with it being a profitable business for them.
But didn't someone seemingly in the know recently say on AzB that the Mosconi Cup in itself is not really a money maker at all for Matchroom Sport -- that Matchroom hosts pool events (including the World Pool Masters and the World Cup of Pool as well as the Mosconi Cup) essentially just to have a broader portfolio of offerings and keep their name in the light more often.
Does anyone else remember someone saying something like that? I'd like to find it and read it again.
[P.S. -- Take a look at all that Matchroom is involved in now. In addition to snooker, pool, darts, and boxing, they have poker, golf, bowling, ping pong, and fishing. http://www.matchroomsport.com/assets/Matchroom-Sport-Calendar2015.pdf]]
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The only issue is that if you go this route you will have to do what matchroom did which is the player can only look at the rack but not ask for a rerack and then attempt to their based based on whatever they have been given. There were tons of slugs in the Mosconi cup where the balls did not come apart well..
Racking is a skill and expecting a referee to possess that skill is a stretch....
This would basically mean that the referee's lack of ability will actually influence the outcome of a match if one player happens to get acceptable racks and the other player gets racks that are the equivalent of the slug...
There was zero issue at the US Open this year using a template, the break box and 9 on the spot....
10Ball with or without a template is a break that once mastered makes the game entirely more predictable than 9Ball because of the ball pathing and limited collisions... 6 balls head towards a pocket so the other 4 are the only chance for random.. Most likely had we not required the 2 and 3 on the wings more randomness could have been achieved....
As it was the 1 ball was played to the corner and the 2 and 3 balls went 4 rails back to the foot of the table as the went towards the corners... Most racks started with similar 1-2-3 openings... The old WPA rules dictated the 2 and 3 positions but after seeing it in action I think I understand now why the rule has been changed and only the 1 and 10 are designated...
10-Ball, With a template, random 2-3, and breaking from the wings would likely give the random aspect of the break a big kick in the pants and it is what I would recommend for future pro events... Hell even without the template and going rack you own you better specify the break boxes.....
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Before Moneymaker won the WSOP, most poker rooms had two games - limit poker and no limit poker. Limit poker was actually more popular. There was maybe one game of Omaha, and it was usually high/low. Now poker rooms have lots of high only Omaha, 5 card Omaha, all mainly PL Omaha and very little limit Omaha, mixed games, Chinese poker, etc.
The WSOP always zeroed in on one game - NL. It was the hole cam and Moneymaker that made it popular. Now for the month+ of the WSOP events, there are MORE events added each year. They've made it more complex not less.
Yes I definitely remember someone posting that...but I am slightly dubious, Barry Hearn strikes me as the type of guy who likes to make money, not flog a dead horse...why stick with something for 20 years, if it was loss making?
That makes no sense, especially when Matchroom were fine to let the World Championships go (and surely that has more global reach).
Is it possible whoever posted that meant from the live tv rights alone...but excluded merchandise, online content, highlights etc?
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I have been pretty much out of the poker scene since the 60's and 70's in California!.. I used to play quite a bit, and I know back then there were only 3 legit games any card room in Cal, was allowed to offer!...Standard 5 card draw, (high only, no hi-lo split) 5 card Low ball draw, and Pan Gao!...No form of stud, with hidden hole cards, was allowed!..I'd say 90% were limit games, I can't recall if 'no limit' games were even allowed..$20-$40 or rarely $40-80 limit games, seemed about as high as you ever saw! (of course adjust for todays $$$$)
Legitimate, licensed card rooms, were not even allowed to furnish dealers. (thus no pot raking) All games were floating player dealt!..All they could do was charge time, which they collected every 20 mins...Obviously, they overcame those antiquated laws, long ago!..With the proliferation of Indian Casinos, in order to survive, the card rooms, (not on Indian land) had to diversify. The last time I was in San Jose, a few years ago, they were playing all kinds of poker...Mostly Hold'em, some Omaha, with house dealer's, raking (ie; gouging) every pot!..Plus now, they were even allowed to deal Black Jack!
I guess I'm bringing all this up to point out the fact, that except for Vegas, and the Indian casinos, the world of poker has changed drastically in the last 30 yrs. or so...No limit Hold'em, is by far the most dominant game (cameras or no cameras) played anywhere now!..I don't think you can tie that all in, to Moneymaker's winning a bracelet!..Its popularity has much broader implications, and appeal than that!
Back to pool!..Games like one-pocket, 9/10 ball, banks, etc., can and will always be played by hard core pool gamblers!..There will also always be popular tournaments, featuring those games!..My point is, that until we find the ONE GAME, (like Hold'em was for poker) that has the broad appeal to attract the masses, and thereby the sponsors, Pool will never be going anywhere, period!..It will also take top notch PR, marketing, and presentation skills.. Sigel and Trudeau had that foresight twenty years ago... I cannot believe, that so few seem to accept it is even more relevant today!!!
At the risk of sounding like "the sky is falling", we have another formidable 'opponent'!..The youth of today seem to be so preoccupied, with Xboxes, social media, Iphones, etc...It is becoming increasingly difficult to divert their short attention span, to learning something like pool, that may perhaps take years to become proficient at!..Pool rooms seem to be closing at an alarming rate..Many cities today, both large and small, the only place you can find a pool table is in a bar!..With the age restrictions imposed, many young people, even if they are attracted to the game, will not have access to it, and will move on to other interests!..That may be the biggest challenge of all..keeping the game alive!..Remember Billiards? 14.1?...Both possibly gone forever!
PS..I am quite sure you are a mature adult..But, sometimes you sound like you may be one of those young dudes!
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Nothing wrong with that.
I don't understand your point here. Most matches between two players will only have one ref racking for them. Therefore, both players should be getting good or bad racks depending on the racking skills of the ref.
I have been pretty much out of the poker scene since the 60's and 70's in California!.. I used to play quite a bit, and I know back then there were only 3 legit games any card room in Cal, was allowed to offer!...Standard 5 card draw, (high only, no hi-lo split) 5 card Low ball draw, and Pan Gao!...No form of stud, with hidden hole cards, was allowed!..I'd say 90% were limit games, I can't recall if 'no limit' games were even allowed... $20-$40 or rarely $40-80 limit games, seemed about as high as you ever saw! (of course adjust for todays $$$$)
Legitimate, licensed card rooms, were not even allowed to furnish dealers. (thus no pot raking) All games were floating player dealt!..All they could do was charge time, which they collected every 20 mins...Obviously, they overcame those antiquated laws, long ago!..With the proliferation of Indian Casinos, in order to survive, the card rooms, (not on Indian land) had to diversify. The last time I was in San Jose, a few years ago, they were playing all kinds of poker...Mostly Hold'em, some Omaha, with house dealer's, raking (ie; gouging) every pot!..Plus now, they were even allowed to deal Black Jack!
I guess I'm bringing all this up to point out the fact, that except for Vegas, and the Indian casinos, the world of poker has changed drastically in the last 30 yrs. or so...No limit Hold'em, is by far the most dominant game (cameras or no cameras) played anywhere now!..I don't think you can tie that all in, to Moneymaker's winning a bracelet!..Its popularity has much broader implications, and appeal than that!
Back to pool!..Games like one-pocket, 9/10 ball, banks, etc., can and will always be played by hard core pool gamblers!..There will also always be popular tournaments, featuring those games!..My point is, that until we find the ONE GAME, (like Hold'em was for poker) that has the broad appeal to attract the masses, and thereby the sponsors, Pool will never be going anywhere, period!..It will also take top notch PR, marketing, and presentation skills.. Sigel and Trudeau had that foresight twenty years ago... I cannot believe, that so few seem to accept it is even more relevant today!!!
At the risk of sounding like "the sky is falling", we have another formidable opponent!..The youth of today seem to be so preoccupied, with Xboxes, social media, Iphones, etc...It is becoming increasingly difficult to divert their short attention span, to learning something like pool, that may perhaps take years to become proficient at!..That may be the biggest challenge of all!
PS..I am quite sure you are a mature adult..But, sometimes you sound like you may be one of them!
The movie Rounders may have also had something to do with the increasing popularity of NL Holdem.
As for blaming technology on the lack of kids playing pool, I don't think that's quite fair. Kids are still running towards other sports and activities. That could be attributed to a variety of factors
- Most houses don't have room for the equipment
- Lack of nearby pool halls
- Pool halls that are nearby may not be kid friendly (in the eyes of the parents)
- No money in pool.
Yes, Rounders was the big reason poker become so popular. That movie coupled with the ease to which one could play with online poker made poker a success imo. Casinos started popping up everywhere also. It had nothing to do with the game being played. Like Watchez said with the success came more events with a variety of games being played.
The thing that is hurting pool the most is the lack of a players organization. Without that you won't ever get the exposure you need.
Here in the Minneapolis area we have a great pool scene with many pool halls. Yet we don't have any of the big players coming here to play in one of the 'signature' tournaments, because no one hosts one. What you need is an organization that can find those areas with minimal exposure but with a good base and they can approach local halls and offer to assist with running a tournament, and then the org. makes sure that players show up.
Same thing with local league tournaments. My local league has a state tournament every year and has over 1,000 players showing up to play over the span of 2-3 weekends. How great would it be if 8 or 16 pros showed up to play a 32-64 man tournament against league players with $100 a piece to play? Is it in the short term interests of the pros to play a few weekends like this? probably not. But in the long term? You gain exposure to a established player base that might go on to buy a PPV or 2 now that they have played them or watched them in person, and you get the ball rolling if you can find some local guys with the skills to compete at the pro level.
But none of this happens without an overarching entity to organize events and suggest destinations and appearances for pros to go to.
Here in the Minneapolis area we have a great pool scene with many pool halls. Yet we don't have any of the big players coming here to play in one of the 'signature' tournaments, because no one hosts one. What you need is an organization that can find those areas with minimal exposure but with a good base and they can approach local halls and offer to assist with running a tournament, and then the org. makes sure that players show up.
Same thing with local league tournaments. My local league has a state tournament every year and has over 1,000 players showing up to play over the span of 2-3 weekends. How great would it be if 8 or 16 pros showed up to play a 32-64 man tournament against league players with $100 a piece to play? Is it in the short term interests of the pros to play a few weekends like this? probably not. But in the long term? You gain exposure to a established player base that might go on to buy a PPV or 2 now that they have played them or watched them in person, and you get the ball rolling if you can find some local guys with the skills to compete at the pro level.
But none of this happens without an overarching entity to organize events and suggest destinations and appearances for pros to go to.