Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[JB Cases]

And, as I stated earlier the overall kicking skill is WAY WAY WAY higher now than 20 years ago.

All one has to do is watch a few hours of pool from the 90s and a few hours of pool in the last five years to see this.

 

[JB Cases]

Exhibit A: (from 2006)
https://youtu.be/Ja9y8Lv_A1s?t=149

Brilliant strategy and safety play, circumvented by the $80 prop.

No it was mediocre and obvious safety play negated by a man with highly developed skill.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The funny part of this whole argument is that people want to make it seem like every single time you play safe now people jump out of it make the ball and run out behind it....

Even at the world class level that just is not the case... Someone should go back, re-watch the Mosconi cup and chart the number of safes played vs the number of jumps attempted and what % of those were made... That would give you an idea that jumping is only an option when the situation calls for it...

I have done 100s of matches now working for Accu-Stats doing the scoring and replays and even in the events where jumping is legal there will be more matches where no jump was attempted than matches where 1 or more jumps were attempted... The stars and moon need to be aligned properly for the jump shot to be as good or better percentage wise than a kick.......

Stop using world class play as the example. We are talking about the jump cue in the game of pool - from the banger level to the elite. You give an elite player a mop handle with a sandpaper tip, they will figure out a way to run balls. I'm talking about the regional tournament level. Or at the league level. Where people just give up on learning kicking because their jump cue allows them to get out of jail. Check THOSE stats out, and then report back to us.

Rules for the game should not be based on the good of the top 1% that play the game. The top 1% should adhere to the rules that benefit the other 99%. Like golf. Or hockey. Or any real sport.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

And, as I stated earlier the overall kicking skill is WAY WAY WAY higher now than 20 years ago.

All one has to do is watch a few hours of pool from the 90s and a few hours of pool in the last five years to see this.

Who is the best kicker the game has ever seen? When did he play?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Hate to tell you this....but the centre of any object is the exact same size. The circumference of two balls will be different sizes, but the originating point of the radius, otherwise known as the "centre" of the "ball", is the exact same size on a basketball, a tennis ball, or a golf ball.

My math degree tells me that. Next......

LMAO...Shawn I know you're trying to be serious here. Wow... (so you can follow along...we are not talking about the "center" of a sphere. Not at all. We are talking about hitting a precise spot on the surface of a sphere. And this spot varies for the various jump shots. Not surprisingly, you dodged my very simple and direct question in response for your request to build a logical argument. If I want to hit a spot below center when elevated, the distance from center on a basketball is very different than the distance from center on a BB. The spot on the BB may be a millimeter from center. Trying to be accurate on a 1mm taget with a 13 or 14 mm tip is much more difficult than trying to hit the same spot on a basketball. You get that the spot will be relatively larger on the basketball, right?

I mean just...wow...your reply could't have had less to do with my point...

KMRUNOUT

 

[JB Cases]

Who is the best kicker the game has ever seen? When did he play?

Efren of course. And his example has been part of what has caused the rise in OVERALL kicking ability around the world. The other factors being simple NEED to learn to kick accurately due to the nature of the rules and penalties AND because of tighter safety play caused by the introduction of jump cues.

You're not taking things in total into account and giving the rest of the world credit for being able to learn to kick.

 

[JB Cases]

Stop using world class play as the example. We are talking about the jump cue in the game of pool - from the banger level to the elite. You give an elite player a mop handle with a sandpaper tip, they will figure out a way to run balls. I'm talking about the regional tournament level. Or at the league level. Where people just give up on learning kicking because their jump cue allows them to get out of jail. Check THOSE stats out, and then report back to us.

Rules for the game should not be based on the good of the top 1% that play the game. The top 1% should adhere to the rules that benefit the other 99%. Like golf. Or hockey. Or any real sport.

In the leagues around here people learn to kick and jump. There are dozens of youtube videos teaching kicking systems, kicking systems are taught on just about every dvd and in every book.

The people I play with all know how to kick AND jump. Some better than others, some better at one or the other but all have decent ability in both.

Maybe you just need better competition and a wider pool of players to see what skill levels are really like.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

The equiptment since modern pool as we know it

Having some trouble determining what this phrase means...

Simonis cloth? Phenolic pool balls? Magic Rack? You wouldn't consider these significant changes...especially when you factor in the idea that Simonic cloth and phenolic balls will affect 100% of the shots taken using those pieces of equipment? I would say that jump cues have *radically* less impact on the game than Simonis cloth.

I mean...um...yeah equipment hasn't changed much in the past 10 or 20 years. But the poster you quoted specifically mentioned 100 years or more...so not sure how "modern pool as we know it" addressed that point.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No JB you have not you brought up mace cues , never used in modern games nor were cues with no chalk ,, since the era of 14-1 8 ball and 9 ball thier as been no changes to the equiptment that has dramatily changed the art of pocketing balls period

1

Wrong. Period. Simonis Cloth. Period. Phenolic balls. Period. (I recommend reading this sentence by saying "period" for every ".", as well as reading the words "period"...makes it much funnier.)

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Yep. APA no JUMP cues allowed. At least the APA got something right. Now, if they can tweak a few more of the dumb rules, I'll be a fuggin APA amabassador, no charge :grin-square:

APA Masters and US Amateur Championship allow jump cues. FYI.

In fact one of my first big wins of my life was in APA Masters against Brian Parks. Everyone had crowded around because Brian is probably the best player in the APA. At 2-2 he missed, and I ran out the set. But the real beauty of it was that the final shot was not only a jump shot with a jump cue, it was a combo from the 1 ball, and to make it even more skillful and beautiful, I shit the 9 ball in the wrong pocket. Think of all the things that are disgusting about that finish. Brian was a perfect gentleman and we've been friends since.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KRJ]

Wrong. Period. Simonis Cloth. Period. Phenolic balls. Period. (I recommend reading this sentence by saying "period" for every ".", as well as reading the words "period"...makes it much funnier.)

KMRUNOUT

Ya left off a couple Premium Chalk. Period. LD shafts. Period. Performance tips. Period.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I can't kick JB. I have never tried. I just feel there is something undignified about jumping. It just seems impure to me as if you are being untrue to the beautiful game of pool and it merely seems to be a gimmick. Sorry to offend you. As I said before, I am a purist. I have a feeling you would bet on two cockroaches running across a room, a horse race, or even if the sun comes up tomorrow if you got the right odds. I like to play 3 cushion once in a while and I believe pocket billiards is an evolutionary outgrowth of that RAIL game. See you at the SBE.

I don't know if in this entire thread I have said one way of the other what I think about jump cues. I jump well. Far above average. I'm surely the best jumper in my home pool room. To be honest, if there was a jumping contest and pros could enter, I don't necessarily feel like a huge underdog in that.

That being said, I really don't care if jump cues are allowed or not. I think there are very good arguments on both sides. (Although not in this thread lol. Not many good arguments of any kind here except what JB says). I'm happy either way.

Funny though...with my jumping abilities, I suppose the following situation may seem odd. I play sometimes in Amazin Billiards in Malden, MA. It is owned by Mazin Shooni, who I understand just became the president of the USBA. I was playing some 3 cushion for the second time in my life. All I had to go on was my kicking abilities learned in pool. I ran a 5. That's not so great, but for someone who has played 3C for less than 3 hours its not too bad. I tried 10 innings 3 times. My overall average was 0.400. That is pretty bad, but again when I told Mazin this he looked at me funny, as if that wasn't supposed to happen. He and a couple of the other good billiards players said I was a "natural" for billiards, and should take up the game. I love the game, it is truly beautiful. Anyway, the point is, somehow being a very good jumper apparently didn't ruin my kicking game. So the "learn to kick" argument is a dead end. It just sounds silly.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Where do those little white spots that appear on the cloth immediately after a jump shot come from ?

Dave

I'm pretty sure they come from the exact same place as the white dots that appear after a break shot. Both in the location the cue ball was to start, and the bounces it makes on the cloth after.

What I'm curious about is if you brush the table regularly, what impact do those white dots make other than visually?

KMRUNOUT

 

[jburkm002]

If you get rid of jump cues then you should get rid of bridges and extensions.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[KMRUNOUT]

There is no other sport I can think of that has a "shot specific" piece of equipment, aside from pool.

Well, I realize it isn't too common, but there is this little sport called "golf", in which a significant part of the game is using the correct club for the given shot. This sport seems to be gaining some popularity...

Another odd example is "pool". Many players use a specialized cue just for breaking. Kind of like using a driver for the drive in golf.

Bowlers can change balls based on the conditions (which can change over the course of a match).

Race car drivers change all kinds of things, the most obvious being tires. They have dedicated rain tires, which they go to when the conditions warrant it.

I'm sure there are many other examples but I didn't want to spend more then 10 seconds thinking about it.

Now what?

KMRUNOUT

 

[one stroke]

Having some trouble determining what this phrase means...

Simonis cloth? Phenolic pool balls? Magic Rack? You wouldn't consider these significant changes...especially when you factor in the idea that Simonic cloth and phenolic balls will affect 100% of the shots taken using those pieces of equipment? I would say that jump cues have *radically* less impact on the game than Simonis cloth.

I mean...um...yeah equipment hasn't changed much in the past 10 or 20 years. But the poster you quoted specifically mentioned 100 years or more...so not sure how "modern pool as we know it" addressed that point.

KMRUNOUT

I'm not shocked ,, So let me help you out ,, good balls ,cloth , rails ect,, just eliminate imperfections that cause misses
Since pool evolved from the caveman era into the era of modern pool , 14-1 , 8 and 9 ball
The only change to pool that dramaticly alters the way balls are pocketed is the jump
stick
It's really not that hard to see that is it ?
1

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No. Actually, the accusations have been flying from the "jumpers" that people who don't like jump cues simply don't like them because they can't use them very well. You have Shane saying get rid of the short cue. Efren hates them. Earl hates them. In the recent Bergman challenge to Boyes, he's asked for no jump cues.

Here's my problem with jump cues. Sometimes, a really good safety should EARN ball in hand. That's just a fact of the game. However, someone decided that we shouldn't reward decent safety play, so they made a jump cue that basically is a "get out of jail free" card. A safe can be made in such a way that kicking at the ball only allows a certain number of contact points on the object ball. The jump cue brings many more points of contact into play.

The great players will want the jump cue gone, because it evens the playing field for people that play a marginal kicking game, because they can mask their deficiencies in a game by investing about 2 hours and $100, and learning how to jump.

Equating jump cues to chalk and leather tips is comical. I can play with any leather tip, and make the same shots I could with a soft or hard leather tip. I may have to adjust to how they spin the ball, but I don't go from an APA 7 to an APA 2 because I switch from a Le Pro to a Moori S. The phenolic tip has no function other than to make the cueball jump, or to make a break shot slightly faster. For me, that is a "shot specific" product, and goes against the integrity and spirit of the game. As such, they should be ruled as illegal.

Do I like the short stick? I think it looks ridiculous. It's "Honey, I shrunk the cue". The minimum length of 40" for a cue serves what purpose? Is there a wall or pole at certain events that require using a shorty cue so that you don't bang the butt into the wall? Are players incredibly short, and need something that short to play?

Argue "innovation" all you want. There is no other sport I can think of that has a "shot specific" piece of equipment, aside from pool. You don't see players changing hockey sticks for slap shots. You don't see soccer players changing into their "bend it" shoes. Baseball players don't change bats while they're at the plate. I cannot think of one game/sport aside from pool that has a piece of shot specific equipment. At least the mace could be used for all shots. Chalk can be used on all pool shots. Leather tips can be used for all shots. The short abomination with the resin tip only does one thing well - make the cueball bounce over another ball. You can't run a rack with it. I could play the rack with my break cue, if I needed to. Shot specific products have no place in the "game" of pool. Artistic billiards - that's where they belong. Along with paper bag trick shots, jumps through the triangle, and any other putt putt creation that can be imagined.

Oh by the way, I've broken and run racks with my BK2 and BK3 break cues, both of which have phenolic tips. There is a decent player in my league that shoots full time with a cue with a phenolic tip.

So much for that idea.

KMRUNOUT

 

[one stroke]

If you get rid of jump cues then you should get rid of bridges and extensions.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Id go for that

1

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I've watched you play pool with a leather tip and a full length cue. I wouldn't brag about your prowess running racks with a jump cue or your break cue...

The Falcon TNT cue....Jim Wych and Geoff White came to me with a drawing on a napkin. They had some ideas. They wanted a shaft made to a certain specification, and for me to add anything to it that I thought would help. So I made them the shaft, using their drawings, and their specs, with a few tweaks of my own. That was the birth of the TNT J/B cue. I received a coffee from Jim, and Falcon gave me 3 cues as a thank you. Huge financial restitution.....

I use jump cues because everyone else uses them. Which is probably why 90% of the pros use them. They're handicapping themselves because there's 2 guys in the field that love the midget stick, and the rules say they can be used. Safety play used to be prevalent in the game of 9 ball. You could see 5-6 safety shot exchanges. The cream rose to the top at the events. You saw the same names dominating pool. Even when the leather tipped jumpers had a limited use, you still saw Johnny Archer, Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland, etc, in the top spots of the events. Then, the phenolic tipped jump rod came out. Pool became Yahtzee. No repeating world champs. All these guys can run out. It was in those little safety and kicking battles that the elite players rose above their competitors. The jump stick basically poured gas on those skills, and lit them on fire. We see about 300% more jump shots per match than in the days before the "Bunjee style" jump cue. Jump cues had a limited use. Now, it's pretty much a staple in the game.

Your arguments basically sum up to "let's get rid of everything, and go back to maces". In effect, the jump cue IS a mace. A flat faced club. So, Johnny....you're the one playing in the dark ages. Some of us prefer a refined game designed for kings. You'd rather chug Miller Lite and watch Tractor pulls. To each their own.

You know, if an APA 3 decided they wanted to enter a pro tournament, I'd say good luck and power to them. They have zero shot, and may even embarrass themselves a bit. But I would totally respect their decision, and admire their balls and drive. If on the other hand they decided to talk about how great they are, and how they are going to rob the tournament, and start telling the real pros how to play, well then I suppose all their failing and embarrassment would be well deserved.

I wonder if anyone can get the reference here, the analogy...(hint, in the analogy, the "pro tournament" is a "reasoned discussion")

KMRUNOUT

 

[Nick B]

If you get rid of jump cues then you should get rid of bridges and extensions.

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Really??? Lets take a logical discussion and make it silly. JB tried with the non-relevant chalk pivot. Why don't we make a 3 second shot clock and you have to hold your breath until your turn is over?

The title of the thread reads: Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup. Let's try and stick to somewhat around the the original topic. Not that I'm a mod, industry wheel or greater power but if you want to get silly then I suggest you start a new thread.