Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[JB Cases]

Excellent example. He called me a "shit stain". Another guy that resorts to swearing when someone offers a different opinion. He also argued with several other posters in the thread. You conveniently forgot those, spin doctor

KT would be proud of his minion

Yes he did, that was against the rules. Perhaps you should ask yourself why he went there? From a relatively friendly discussion to calling you a shit stain....I guess he felt trolled on some level.

And once again, two more rule violations. Hypocrisy suits you, you wear it well.

 

[JB Cases]

John, send me a PM. Stop wasting bandwidth with the "look at me". It's tiring. Buy some big boy pants, and stay on topic.

Why would I send you a PM? I have nothing to say to you other than good riddance should you actually get the ban you deserve.

From your very first entries into this thread you have been antagonistic and trolling, laid out many false statements and tried to bully your way through it.

You're clearly emotionally upset about jump cues, some sort of internal conflict that is causing to you to lash out with some sort of tourettes-like incoherent nonsense babbling. I hope for your sake you get that resolved, it's sad to see a meltdown happening in front of us.

 

[AtLarge]

From the Forum Rules:

"... you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

To be included, there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.

All posts will be kept civil."

 

[JB Cases]

Guilty !!!!!!!! Yep it was us that came with the 40 inch minimum rule.

One year at Shooters in Olathe during one of our bigger events, a guy rolled out a slew of jump rods, not even as long as a shaft. Sold a ton of them.....all the kids in the joint were not really instructed in the proper use of said tool....and did some damage to the tables. Hence, a compromise was reached and Mr. McChesney wrote it into our rules.

Here you go Shawn and everyone else. At least we can try and keep the facts and the timeline straight.

 

[JB Cases]

From the Forum Rules:

"... you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

To be included, there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.

All posts will be kept civil."

Well I think we all agree that if these rules were rigidly administered then amount of banned members would be considerably higher.

Some members, like Shawn, like to push the limits quite a bit.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Jump cues have done nothing to elevate the level of play. Jump cues have been around for 20 years. They have not been the magical saviour for the game. There are no big TV deals being signed by any major networks. It comes down to personal preference. Some people like them, some people don't.

The modern day jump cue has taken most of the skill necessary to make a jump shot, out of the jump shot. You couldn't use a dart stroke until the phenolic tipped jump cue was available for sale.

Chalk is necessary to the game. Rails are necessary to the game. Diamonds help with bank shots, not just kicks, so they are necessary. To argue that jump cues are as relevant to the game as the above items is a pretty weak argument, yet that's all that ends up coming back. Talk of maces, chalk and diamonds.

The top pros are asking for no jump cues. This isn't my opinion. Earl, Efren, Shane, Justin, etc. Not Shawn Armstrong, but top touring pros. They somehow believe that the game can continue to thrive without the jump cue.

The reason the jump cue will continue to be legal has nothing to do with the players or game's advancement, and has everything to do with commercial interests. Joss doesn't make a jump cue, and I find it interesting that their tour with Mike Zuglan has no jump cues allowed. Predator sponsors a lot of events. They make a decent amount of money from jump cues. They would lose revenues if jump cues were banned from the game. That isn't in a promoter's best interests, as they need the sponsorship money to run their tournaments, and cover their costs. First rule of business - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Companies like OB and Predator put money back into pool. To take a bite from a revenue stream that is already on life support is a bad business decision. And that's what the jump cue is - a business decision. It has nothing to do with advancing the game. Or drawing people into the game.

 

[JB Cases]

Three thoughts, and a disclaimer: I don't care either way in this debate, I can jump if I need to, and kick when I need to.

Thought one: Can someone please explain why a jump cue is a 'crutch' and a gimmick and makes the game 'easier' while putting diamonds on the rail to aid in aiming and banking is gospel and at it's core is not exactly the same thing. If playing on a table without rail diamonds would be considerably harder, then they are serving the same purpose - making a difficult shot easier. How did one helper get 'necessary part of the game' status while the other is a 'tool for lesser players'?

Which leads into the second thought - I think this entire debate is just another facet of the 'I spent a lot of time learning this game, and if you didn't, you aren't as good as me' debate. Other facets include the 'handicaps are for losers' debate where people say the only way to get better is to lose (preferably money) to better players based solely on the logic that they got better that way, and that's how it should be done. This debate also took place when LD shafts first came out and people complained that it made the game easier for people without the knowledge to give for deflection.

Final thought - while some are praising Mike Zulgan for banning jump cues, I think it is a symptom of the greater problem with pool - no standardization. If the jump cue is a legal piece of equipment then it should be legal. Changing that one aspect should not be within the purvey of a league or tour just because they don't like it. What if suddenly The Masters decided that over-sized composite golf clubs were 'bad for the game' and made it 'too easy' and made everyone use persimmon drivers with steel shafts 'because that's how the game was meant to be played' They wouldn't - because they have their s#$% together and realize that progression is part of the game, and that games and equipment evolve or sink into obscurity.

Another great post in this thread.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Americans are the worst kicker in the game and you guys are arguing that take the jump cue off will give them a chance lol. Anybody commented in favor of banning the jump stick actually watched the last Mosconi Cup ? Americans were kicking like I did when I was drunk lol.

For Shane, it's worst for him without the jump stick, since he's one of the best jumper in the world, but mile far from that in kicking.

How's about a mandatory push like Archer suggested O_O LMAO haha. Sorry I can't help myself.

 

[JB Cases]

Jump cues have done nothing to elevate the level of play. Jump cues have been around for 20 years. They have not been the magical saviour for the game. There are no big TV deals being signed by any major networks. It comes down to personal preference. Some people like them, some people don't.

The modern day jump cue has taken most of the skill necessary to make a jump shot, out of the jump shot. You couldn't use a dart stroke until the phenolic tipped jump cue was available for sale.

Chalk is necessary to the game. Rails are necessary to the game. Diamonds help with bank shots, not just kicks, so they are necessary. To argue that jump cues are as relevant to the game as the above items is a pretty weak argument, yet that's all that ends up coming back. Talk of maces, chalk and diamonds.

The top pros are asking for no jump cues. This isn't my opinion. Earl, Efren, Shane, Justin, etc. Not Shawn Armstrong, but top touring pros. They somehow believe that the game can continue to thrive without the jump cue.

The reason the jump cue will continue to be legal has nothing to do with the players or game's advancement, and has everything to do with commercial interests. Joss doesn't make a jump cue, and I find it interesting that their tour with Mike Zuglan has no jump cues allowed. Predator sponsors a lot of events. They make a decent amount of money from jump cues. They would lose revenues if jump cues were banned from the game. That isn't in a promoter's best interests, as they need the sponsorship money to run their tournaments, and cover their costs. First rule of business - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Companies like OB and Predator put money back into pool. To take a bite from a revenue stream that is already on life support is a bad business decision. And that's what the jump cue is - a business decision. It has nothing to do with advancing the game. Or drawing people into the game.

Joss was one of the first companies to make jump handles for their shafts. Mike Sigel on one of their videos demonstrated it's use.

Why they don't make one now is not known. But so what that they don't, not every cue maker does.

Your OPINION is that allowing jump cues is a business decision but the fact is that the decision to allow them was made more than 20 years ago long before Predator and OB and many of the brands out now even made jump cues.

The decision was made with the needs of the game in terms of the SPORT in mind. Nothing has changed in that regard EXCEPT that companies like like Predator and OB and many other have stepped in to offer their innovations to this part of the game.

Much like Kamui and others are innovating chalk and tips and other staples of the game.

Jump cues are consistent TOOLS that bring equity across the board. It's not a business decision to allow jump cues. It's a sporting decision.

BUT

Even if were a purely business decision and ALL of the entities that do allow jump cues did so purely because jump cue makers put money back into pool then that would be actually great too. Because jump cues only add to the game and do not harm it in any way so why not encourage their use and help companies make more money with which to support pool even more.

But it's not...... it's simply a tool that has been evaluated for use, regulated and accepted into the allowed equipment for professional and amateur play around the world, except in some parts of America where people still don't get it why foreign players are on average better than we are.

 

[JB Cases]

Jump cues have done nothing to elevate the level of play. Jump cues have been around for 20 years. They have not been the magical saviour for the game. There are no big TV deals being signed by any major networks. It comes down to personal preference. Some people like them, some people don't.

The modern day jump cue has taken most of the skill necessary to make a jump shot, out of the jump shot. You couldn't use a dart stroke until the phenolic tipped jump cue was available for sale.

Chalk is necessary to the game. Rails are necessary to the game. Diamonds help with bank shots, not just kicks, so they are necessary. To argue that jump cues are as relevant to the game as the above items is a pretty weak argument, yet that's all that ends up coming back. Talk of maces, chalk and diamonds.

The top pros are asking for no jump cues. This isn't my opinion. Earl, Efren, Shane, Justin, etc. Not Shawn Armstrong, but top touring pros. They somehow believe that the game can continue to thrive without the jump cue.

The reason the jump cue will continue to be legal has nothing to do with the players or game's advancement, and has everything to do with commercial interests. Joss doesn't make a jump cue, and I find it interesting that their tour with Mike Zuglan has no jump cues allowed. Predator sponsors a lot of events. They make a decent amount of money from jump cues. They would lose revenues if jump cues were banned from the game. That isn't in a promoter's best interests, as they need the sponsorship money to run their tournaments, and cover their costs. First rule of business - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Companies like OB and Predator put money back into pool. To take a bite from a revenue stream that is already on life support is a bad business decision. And that's what the jump cue is - a business decision. It has nothing to do with advancing the game. Or drawing people into the game.

No one said jump cues were any sort of magical saviour. They have IN FACT elevated the game. Literally and figuratively.

Sorry but the FACT is that players MUST look to play tighter safeties and they have developed higher degrees of skill to do that. Players then must also develop their kicking game to account for the times they MUST kick. They have done that.

Players also have had to learn to jump precisely and have done so. So in all three areas the game has been elevated with far higher degrees of skill on both the professional and amateur level.

This is PERFECTLY clear when a person analyzes the videos from the 80's and early 90s of professional play compared to the 2000s. Kicking is better now, safety play is better now, and of course jumping is WAY better now.

 

[KRJ]

Sooooo, in a nutshell, John does like jump cues, and Shawn, not so much. Probably close to what the public thinks, I bet it's right around 50/50 for or against.

Just like in baseball, the DH is in the same boat, some love it and some don't. At least the American League had the sense to let us watch a hitter at the plate and NOT a pitcher

 

[Floppage]

Sooooo, in a nutshell, John does like jump cues, and Shawn, not so much. Probably close to what the public thinks, I bet it's right around 50/50 for or against.

Just like in baseball, the DH is in the same boat, some love it and some don't. At least the American League had the sense to let us watch a hitter at the plate and NOT a pitcher

Maybe what we need is a DS. (Designated Shooter) That way if you're hooked and can't kick of it, you can just call in your DS.

I CALL SHANE!!!!

(this is proof that I called him as my DS first)

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sooooo, in a nutshell, John does like jump cues, and Shawn, not so much. Probably close to what the public thinks, I bet it's right around 50/50 for or against.

Just like in baseball, the DH is in the same boat, some love it and some don't. At least the American League had the sense to let us watch a hitter at the plate and NOT a pitcher

My feeling is the jump cue has made safety play nearly irrelevant. There used to be some chess matches, so to speak, in 9 ball games. I remember a match between Archer and Reyes, where the two had a kicking battle for several minutes. And this all happened while jump cues were legal. They just weren't the version of jump cue we have now. We get to see a safety. Perhaps one kick. Most often, a jump. There's no escalating tension, wondering who is going to make the first mistake.

It's like Eddie said in TCOM. Checkers outsells chess.

 

[JB Cases]

My feeling is the jump cue has made safety play nearly irrelevant. There used to be some chess matches, so to speak, in 9 ball games. I remember a match between Archer and Reyes, where the two had a kicking battle for several minutes. And this all happened while jump cues were legal. They just weren't the version of jump cue we have now. We get to see a safety. Perhaps one kick. Most often, a jump. There's no escalating tension, wondering who is going to make the first mistake.

It's like Eddie said in TCOM. Checkers outsells chess.

I understand your feeling but it's not the truth. I happen to have recently been giving around 100 matches spanning the past 25 years.

In fact, the very last game of the 2015 Mosconi Cup was just such a chess match game.

Very tense.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I understand your feeling but it's not the truth. I happen to have recently been giving around 100 matches spanning the past 25 years.

In fact, the very last game of the 2015 Mosconi Cup was just such a chess match game.

Very tense.

No, John. It's your truth. Not mine. You aren't the keeper of cosmic truths. Your beliefs are yours. Mine are mine. Neither are wrong. You should ban "you're wrong" from any further posts. Just say "my opinion is".

We're talking about the match that ended with a jump shot, right? What would have happened if he had to kick? We will never know. And that's a shame.

 

[BRussell]

Anyone who says jump cues = safeties and kicks are irrelevant hasn't watched pool in the past 20 years.

 

[one stroke]

Another great post in this thread.

Another great post If you like skeet shooting

There is zero argument Jump cues raise the possibility of pocketing balls for anyone
Since jump cues are designed to make jumping easier and thier marketing of them is based on the ease of use ,,really if you can't jump it's not likely you have any ability
might want take up checkers

The Masters have zero say in a PGA event ,, however they can ban all woods made of metal if the want too in thier club tourneys ,
Thier course thier Tournoments thier rules
However the PGA has banned equiptment that was deemed to make the game easier
Happens again next yr with the banning of belly putters

Marks turny Marks rules if players don't like it don't play

Joe Tucker's American Rotation rapidly growing no jump cues , Joe gets it too

1

 

[JB Cases]

No, John. It's your truth. Not mine. You aren't the keeper of cosmic truths. Your beliefs are yours. Mine are mine. Neither are wrong. You should ban "you're wrong" from any further posts. Just say "my opinion is".

We're talking about the match that ended with a jump shot, right? What would have happened if he had to kick? We will never know. And that's a shame.

In the position he was in if he had to kick he would have had very little chance of a good outcome.

I don't have time to go find all the examples but I did post one earlier that was a great tactical battle where the jump shot was the only option left to the shooter. he made a good hit but didn't get safe and the other guy ran out.

When you're wrong I will say you're wrong. You state that there are no more "chess" like exchanges and you're wrong.

Pros play position with jump cues. They play jump safeties, they play jump banks, jump caroms, jump-bank-caroms, jump masse' shots. It's not just hit and hope anymore and hasn't been for twenty years.

Now the "chess" portion has in fact gotten way better because of the need to defend against the jump when playing safe.

Also, come on man and be realistic.....many many many times when a pro kicks he is only HOPING for a good outcome when the fact is that the good outcome is actually the lower percentage and most of the time the outcome is not good. A lot of the "chess match" kicking battles you recall were really a series of fortunate rolls more than precisely played results.

 

[The Renfro]

Another great post If you like skeet shooting

There is zero argument Jump cues raise the possibility of pocketing balls for anyone
Since jump cues are designed to make jumping easier and thier marketing of them is based on the ease of use ,,really if you can't jump it's not likely you have any ability
might want take up checkers

The Masters have zero say in a PGA event ,, however they can ban all woods made of metal if the want too in thier club tourneys ,
Thier course thier Tournoments thier rules
However the PGA has banned equiptment that was deemed to make the game easier
Happens again next yr with the banning of belly putters

Marks turny Marks rules if players don't like it don't play

Joe Tucker's American Rotation rapidly growing no jump cues , Joe gets it too

1

Having the same opinion as you doesn't mean someone gets it... I am against banning the jump cue so to me he doesn't "get it" and I have actually talked to him about it....

The funny part of this whole argument is that people want to make it seem like every single time you play safe now people jump out of it make the ball and run out behind it....

Even at the world class level that just is not the case... Someone should go back, re-watch the Mosconi cup and chart the number of safes played vs the number of jumps attempted and what % of those were made... That would give you an idea that jumping is only an option when the situation calls for it...

I have done 100s of matches now working for Accu-Stats doing the scoring and replays and even in the events where jumping is legal there will be more matches where no jump was attempted than matches where 1 or more jumps were attempted... The stars and moon need to be aligned properly for the jump shot to be as good or better percentage wise than a kick.......

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Anyone who says jump cues = safeties and kicks are irrelevant hasn't watched pool in the past 20 years.

Exhibit A: (from 2006)
https://youtu.be/Ja9y8Lv_A1s?t=149

Brilliant strategy and safety play, circumvented by the $80 prop.