curving an object ball....

[BRussell]

Oh yeah I do see what you're saying now. Starting from being up in the air, as it comes down it appears to travel to the left more than it really does, so that when it lands and rolls on the table it appears to be moving at a shorter angle. Gotcha.

And if you start from the point on the rail, it actually should appear to be making an s-surve as it goes up and then down again and then rolls on the table surface. Now that would be a shot - making an object ball follow an s-curve!

 

[DaveM]

Actually, what I was attempting to describe is a perceived backward curve. The ball rising up into the air and apparently moving more up-table (due to camera perspective) could be perceived as a forward curve. But as the ball comes down, it apparently moves more down-table than it actually does (again, due to camera perspective) before straightening out to the final direction past the obstacle. This could be perceived as a backward curve. I think this effect is the one that is most responsible for fooling people into thinking the ball is curving short (e.g., in the Freddy video).

Does that make more sense now?

Regards,
Dave

If the camera was on the other side of the table, facing the targeted pocket, would the ball appear to be curving long?

 

[dr_dave]

Oh yeah I do see what you're saying now. Starting from being up in the air, as it comes down it appears to travel to the left more than it really does, so that when it lands and rolls on the table it appears to be moving at a shorter angle. Gotcha.

Bingo!

And if you start from the point on the rail, it actually should appear to be making an s-surve as it goes up and then down again and then rolls on the table surface. Now that would be a shot - making an object ball follow an s-curve!

That's right ... I'm now officially a master S-curve bank shooter. Don't try it at home, though ... it requires a special stroke that most people don't have.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Actually, I do think the perspective distortion created by the large initial hop could lead to an incorrect perception that the OB is curving short. When the OB is in the air, it appears to be further up-table, heading directly toward the obstacle ball. But when it lands, it is clearly on a line further down table which clears the obstacle. I think that can visually mislead something into think the ball is curving short around the obstacle ball. Watch the end of the video again, where I analyzed Freddy's shots, with this in mind

Actually, what I was attempting to describe is a perceived backward curve. The ball rising up into the air and apparently moving more up-table (due to camera perspective) could be perceived as a forward curve. But as the ball comes down, it apparently moves more down-table than it actually does (again, due to camera perspective) before straightening out to the final direction past the obstacle. This could be perceived as a backward curve. I think this effect is the one that is most responsible for fooling people into thinking the ball is curving short (e.g., in the Freddy video).

If the camera were on the other side of the table, facing the targeted pocket, would the ball appear to be curving long?

Yes, depending on the camera angle and whether or not the OB is bouncing or not (and how much it is bouncing).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

John Brumback's video doesn't show any bouncing, and it still looks like it curves. I seen no camera motion once the balls are in motion.

I never thought The Beard's shot curved, but Brumback's still looks like it does.

Freddie <~~~ eyes still open

 

[BRussell]

John Brumback's video doesn't show any bouncing, and it still looks like it curves. I seen no camera motion once the balls are in motion.

I never thought The Beard's shot curved, but Brumback's still looks like it does.

Freddie <~~~ eyes still open

^ eyes not open enough to see it bounce right after it comes off the rail.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Nice work on the new video!


An overhead view would be great for showing how straight the bank actually is too.

P.S. Johns shot certainly jumped off the rail

 

[Cornerman]

^ eyes not open enough to see it bounce right after it comes off the rail.

Nope, not at all.

 

[jalapus logan]

John Brumback's video doesn't show any bouncing, and it still looks like it curves. I seen no camera motion once the balls are in motion.

I never thought The Beard's shot curved, but Brumback's still looks like it does.

Freddie <~~~ eyes still open

I have personally had John B. show me the curve demonstration. He had me stand directly behind him and watch him shoot cross corners repeatedly. I swear on my monther's grave that they were curving. I had a direct line of sight from the collision rail to the pocket and it DAMN SURE LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE CURVING!

I still don't think that it matters much though. (edit: I do find this discusstion really interesting in any event, thanks again)

 

[ENGLISH!]

Nope, not at all.

I just watched it in super slow mo & I can not see it jump at all.

IF it did... it was extremely minimal.

I think what's 'important' is that if one looks at the set up...

the ball would not go on a mirror angle in & mirror out because of the blocking ball or if cut up table & hit slowly because it would open up more past the pocket.

So the technique is to cut the ball farther up table & then get it to hold less than THAT mirror in & mirror out.

John does what it takes to pocket the ball & it certainly appears to curve back some.

I think rather many of us have seen a long banked ball roll like when playing one pocket where it just drifts & drifts. That is a slow roll curve.

Many times some shots just can not be made using one technique alone but two techniques must be combined to get the total effect needed.

Speed into the rail & with spin that will take. Some times it's a fine line of what is the speed of the shot that allows both techniques to be able to yield their effects.

Too hard & one yields little to nothing. Too hard & the other yields little to nothing. At the right speed one gets a contribution from bot techniques.

 

[BRussell]

Nope, not at all.

You're talking about the video in the first post in this thread? You don't see it bounce several times as it comes off the rail airborne? Go look at it again. Doesn't mean it's not curving, and in fact it looks like it curves after it gets by the 5, which the bounce off the rail couldn't account for. But I want you to look at it and tell me it's not bouncing off the rail.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You're talking about the video in the first post in this thread? You don't see it bounce several times as it comes off the rail airborne? Go look at it again. Doesn't mean it's not curving, and in fact it looks like it curves after it gets by the 5, which the bounce off the rail couldn't account for. But I want you to look at it and tell me it's not bouncing off the rail.

I looked at it again & it does look to be slightly air borne, but it is not a big hop like in the other videos.

It looks to be maybe be 1/4 inch or less off the bed of the table & it is back on the table about 6" from the rail.

 

[Maxx]

You're talking about the video in the first post in this thread? You don't see it bounce several times as it comes off the rail airborne? Go look at it again. Doesn't mean it's not curving, and in fact it looks like it curves after it gets by the 5, which the bounce off the rail couldn't account for. But I want you to look at it and tell me it's not bouncing off the rail.

Nope, no bounce.

 

[BRussell]

I looked at it again & it does look to be slightly air borne, but it is not a big hop like in the other videos.

It looks to be maybe be 1/4 inch or less off the bed of the table & it is back on the table about 6" from the rail.

Yeah I agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dr_dave]

John Brumback's video doesn't show any bouncing, and it still looks like it curves. I seen no camera motion once the balls are in motion.

The camera is moving during John's entire video. The middle part of the shot is slowed down, so the motion is more difficult to see. But if the camera is moving before the slow down, and after the slow down, I suspect it is also moving during the slow down (albeit, not very much since the shot happens fast when not slowed down).

Concerning whether the ball is bouncing or not, I personally think the camera angle and limited resolution/quality of the video isn't really good enough to tell conclusively (especially concerning how much, when, and how many times it bounces).

I never thought The Beard's shot curved

I would guess that you would be in the minority concerning this. People on both AZB and Facebook have claimed that Freddy's shot was curving. And on the DVD, Freddy also claims the ball is curving. I certainly thought Freddy's shot was curving until I was not able to recreate the curve and looked closer at his video. I suspect some people might still think the ball is curving even after watching my video.

Regards,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

Thanks Lou.

I'm surprised more people haven't commented on the video. Filming it was certainly an eye-opening experience for me. At first, I was very disappointed that I didn't see any bend in the OB path with any of the shots on any of the equipment or conditions. But after I found logical explanations for why people might think balls are bending (including me at first), I was in a happier place. I still think it is possible to bend a bank (since the cushion nose can impart topspin parallel to the rail and masse spin, both of which can curve the OB's path), but I think it would require unique conditions. I think the main reason why the bend is not occurring is that any topspin or masse spin imparted to the ball during cushion nose compression has an effect (and dissipates) only when the OB interacts with the bed of the table during the first hop caused by the cushion nose pushing the OB down. Then the OB heads in a straight line (although, the spin imparted by the cushion does contribute to shortening the bank).

Regards,
Dave

Well, why more people haven't commented... it's like from the get-go, you lost the entire state of Kentucky, lol. Although I wouldn't discount JB's position out of hand. I await his comments with bait on my breath.

Then, you had all those guys who hate to admit the science is right. Its like a whole room of third graders being told the Tooth Fairy isn't real.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Rubik's Cube]

Fascinating debate, gentlemen, many thanks indeed.

Curve or no curve? I'll admit to sitting on the fence at present until undertaking research of my own. I'd love to see some more video evidence, Dr Dave, particularly a wider angled bank to a corner if possible.

Kind regards,
RC.

 

[Cornerman]

The camera is moving during John's entire video. The middle part of the shot is slowed down, so the motion is more difficult to see. But if the camera is moving before the slow down, and after the slow down, I suspect it is also moving during the slow down (albeit, not very much since the shot happens fast when not slowed down).

I don't see it moving. I see the camera move just before the shot, but not at all during the shot.

I am stunned people are saying for certainty that it's airborne and I am stunned you would even suggest that the camera is moving, even a tiny amount during the bank shot. Put a piece of tape on your screen; the camera doesn't move during the bank.

 

[Corwyn_8]

If you are going to test pool shots.... you need a pro shooting them. That is all.John B.

Because MAGIC.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't see it moving. I see the camera move just before the shot, but not at all during the shot.

I am stunned people are saying for certainty that it's airborne and I am stunned you would even suggest that the camera is moving, even a tiny amount during the bank shot. Put a piece of tape on your screen; the camera doesn't move during the bank.

Hi Freddy,

I sold state of the art digital surveillance systems for a time & what I was selling was more difficult for lawyers to get thrown out of courts of law but not impossible.

I looked at it & saw no bounce.

I looked at it again & saw what seems to be a slight leaving of the playing surface for maybe 6" from the rail.

It might be an optical illusion because of the rotation of the striped ball.

I would not put my hand on a Bible either way.

I've often said that this type of video is not proof of anything as this type of video are sometimes not allowed as evidence in courts of law.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick