I would like to hear everyone's thoughts about follow through. Should you maintain a pendulum swing or is it better to drop the elbow when following through?
Elbow drop or not?
- Thread starter mindtriplx
- Start date
Have you studied some top players for this? What have you noticed?
Here ya go, 45 pages on the subject.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=174482&highlight=elbow+dropping+nonsense
John
Here ya go, 45 pages on the subject.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=174482&highlight=elbow+dropping+nonsense
John
Amen to that John. Exactly what I thought.
I wonder if the OP has searched on Elbow Drop to find the countless thread that are already out there?
r/DCP
I think Mr. Jewitt has brought a new angle to this discussion, and in interest of making this latest elbow drop thread a bit different, maybe we can dive into it a bit further.
The recommendation to study top players is nothing really innovative unto itself, but could a new player contemplating the right stroke (we all know there's different strokes four different folks)...could it be recommended that the new player find a pro with a similar body style and study/emulate that pro player's approach to the shot/stroke? Instead of the usual elbow drop is good or bad answer, Mr Jewitt has recommended the player to find the answer himself.
If the player is short, he could get videos of Jose Parica or Alex Pagulyan and go from there.
If a player is super tall, go watch Ruslan Chinakhov.
From this thought process, early on, I watched hours upon hours of Niels Feijen and Shane who match my height and body style.
When contemplating elbow drop, stance, bridge length, etc....has anyone else taken this approach and studied players matching their body style?
For the OP, Bob Jewitt put you on the right track for the answers.
On a side point- when I was younger everyone wanted to emulate Michael Jordan's fall away turn around jump shot. From a technical fundamental standpoint, it's not a good shot to take (feet should be set, shoulders squared to the basket, etc) but if mastered, it was a beautiful shot, effective and hard to defend.
I believe the same can be said for elbow drop.
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Randy? I thought you had gone on? Travis Trotter said his mom and dad had passed but here you are!
Glad you are still with us..
r/DCP
well if you're 3 ft tall and have to use a bench
then not dropping your elbow might be a good thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CniPRkwqteI&t=6m52s
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Here is a partial post from Scott Lee (from the above mentioned post from 2010) and should be read.
Quote:
MOST pros who have an elbow drop, move the elbow down AFTER contact with the CB. They have superb timing which allows them to still accurately contact the CB (which is the biggest argument against doing it). The vast majority of amateur players have no such ability.
End:
The magic words here are "move the elbow down after contact"
This all has to be coordinated with the wrist moving down (like striking a nail with a hammer) and timed with the elbow coming straight down on the shot stroke.
If you watch SVB or CJ Wiley and most pros I'm sure, pay attention to the timing of the wrist and the elbow coming straight down. The grip hand leads and the elbow follows.
This type of stroke is not required for all shots. You will have to practice to know when its needed.
Quote:
MOST pros who have an elbow drop, move the elbow down AFTER contact with the CB. They have superb timing which allows them to still accurately contact the CB (which is the biggest argument against doing it). The vast majority of amateur players have no such ability.
End:
The magic words here are "move the elbow down after contact"
This all has to be coordinated with the wrist moving down (like striking a nail with a hammer) and timed with the elbow coming straight down on the shot stroke.
If you watch SVB or CJ Wiley and most pros I'm sure, pay attention to the timing of the wrist and the elbow coming straight down. The grip hand leads and the elbow follows.
This type of stroke is not required for all shots. You will have to practice to know when its needed.
My elbow drops & I have NEVER thought about the timing of it.
It is just the natural thing for IT to do IF one's focus is moving the cue stick on a straight 'level' line. Have you ever heard of a piston or scissors stroke?
Why would one ever want to try to keep the elbow fixed at a point in space IF & WHEN one is trying to move the cue stick on a straight & 'level' line?
That is a rhetorical question & just food for thought for anyone so inclined.
To me, that is a contrived method & not a natural method... But it is easy to explain & 'teach'.
Best Wishes to All,
Rick
PS I am not a paper holding instructor & the above are just my observations & opinions based on my experiences. Please take them as you will.
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I'm pretty sure you have already had that question answered, but choose to ignore the explanation.
Steve
ENGLISH! is correct. MOVING the cue on a level plane requires an elbow drop. ('MOVING' to me, means enough to be considered a substantial part of the stroke.)
The non-droppers contend that at the point of impact, the cue reaches a level plane, so an elbow drop isn't necessary. That is a valid point, but it only holds true if the grip hand is precisely positioned at a particular spot on the cue relative to the player's bridge length, considering tip distance from the cb and stance height at the table for any given shot. Those are quite a few hefty variables that change with regularity during the course of a typical game.
It's no surprise that there are a lot less precisely positioned grip hands then you would think.
I think the real question here should be ---- how much of an effect does not being level at impact really have? My opinion is --- generally not much if the cue angle angle is minimal, with the exception of certain shots. In my case, I make it a point to drop my elbow for certain shots to assure a level cue at impact. And yes --- I would drop it definitely before impact, or what would be the point?
---And I'm still experimenting with the idea that there may be some shots where the cue needs to be moving on a level plane as it approaches the cue ball to achieve maximum effect. It's still a work in progress for me.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have NEVER seen you, Fran, as being one that can not think for themselves & only follows the cookie cutter plan. You show here that you certainly do think for yourself.
I think it too often gets overlooked or not mentioned that the connection to the cue has an influence & should fit the intended swing or cue stroke.. or an in stroke modification of the connection to the cue, even if subconsciously, can be in order.
All of the Best for You & Yours & May All Be & Stay Well.
Rick
PS Jeanette & Ewa now on ESPN2
I have NEVER seen you, Fran, as being one that can not think for themselves & only follows the cookie cutter plan. You show here that you certainly do think for yourself.
I think it too often gets overlooked or not mentioned that the connection to the cue has an influence & should fit the intended swing or cue stroke.. or an in stroke modification of the connection to the cue, even if subconsciously, can be in order.
All of the Best for You & Yours & May All Be & Stay Well.
Rick
PS Jeanette & Ewa now on ESPN2
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Good points, Fran. That is why having an effective pendulum stroke, being able to get into the proper set position is critical. Tip within 1/2 inch of the cue ball, hand directly below the elbow. If the bridge length varies, the grip position on the cue must also adjust accordingly to keep the grip below the elbow. If you can't get into the proper set position, the effectiveness of the pendulum stroke deteriorate. Just like the offensive line in football, you need to start from the same position.
And I agree that level movement at the time of impact is not as important as where contact with the cue ball is made.
Steve
Hey Steve,
About your last line, I don't think you're agreeing with what I wrote. I'm saying that I think there may be something significant to level movement prior to contact, which obviously also includes being level at contact --- as opposed to just arriving at level at about contact. I'm still working on that.
With regard to perfectly positioning your back hand at address in order to effectively use the fixed upper arm stroke --- I think it's more of a range with a margin for error where the player mostly isn't really striking the ball with a level cue, but the margin is allowing them success. With some shots, however, the error margin will be much smaller and an elbow drop isn't such a bad idea to assure level at impact, and maybe even something more.
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HI FRan
i really like your description- great!
I like to say, that the most important thing should be is to be aligned perfectly so if your elbow *drops*..it wouldn t really matter that much (just following naturally your stroke movement forwards). IN that case ( being alinged perfectly ) the effect of an elbow drop on for example strokes with a higher acceleration as usual would haven t really a negative effect.
kind regards from overseas
HI FRan
i really like your description- great!
I like to say, that the most important thing should be is to be aligned perfectly so if your elbow *drops*..it wouldn t really matter that much (just following naturally your stroke movement forwards). IN that case ( being alinged perfectly ) the effect of an elbow drop on for example strokes with a higher acceleration as usual would haven t really a negative effect.
kind regards from overseas
Hi Ingo!
Thanks but I'm not sure if you're really agreeing with what I wrote. I am advocating an elbow drop before impact on certain shots.
I still hold this same opinion. Elbow drop is a choice, rather than a necessity. There is no shot that can be accomplished with a piston-style stroke that cannot be accomplished with a pendulum stroke. BTW, the winner of the Pro 10-ball, John Morra, plays with a perfect pendulum stroke...no elbow drop.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com