Are League Playoffs Fair?

The handicapped 14.1 league I run has cash prizes for the top three records during the season, high runs (weighted by ability), and performance in the playoffs. Everyone who has at least nine matches during the season gets to play in the playoffs. We pay down to 8th place. 100% of the weekly fees ($10/match/player) is returned as prize money.

I also play in another 14.1 league that has a similar structure.
 
That is not a league situation I would want to play in. There ought to be some reward for a well played regular season. I play in an individual nine ball league where half the money is paid in prizes for your regular season ranking and the other half goes to payouts in a session ending seeded tournament, as well as a little added money. The players are happy the pool hall is happy. I've never heard a complaint on how it goes down.
 
Greg...Are you sure your numbers are right? Seems like you'd likely have a 10 week session, meaning $25 into the "pot" each week, to get to the $250 total $. That would mean you only had 5 players in the entire league. That seems unlikely.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

gregcantrall said:
Back in the 90's I played in the silliest league I have ever seen.:eek: It was an in house league where every player paid $5 a week. At the end of the season there was no team play off. Just a single game, single elimination, individual tournament, winner take all, for the $250(probably a little more??) in the pot. We played 8 ball bar rules with the provision that the 8 ball had to be made clean. The season was played on 8 foot valleys and the season ending tournament played on a 9 foot table.

Three brothers had started the league and figured they had the nuts on the money. I went into the league with my eyes wide open and liking my chances to take down the money. Since we were playing all scratches shoot from the kitchen with no table scratch, I complimented them;) on the use of the old time rule that the 8 ball had to go clean. I then pointed out to them the the old time rules also provided that if the cue ball scratched and all of my balls were behind the head string the one nearest the line could be spotted at my discretion. How could they deny that rule after I had just complimented them on their knowledge of the game.;);)

It was close but I took down the money. Had I lost I would not have complained.
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Bill...We all know you are totally anti-league, and make no bones about it. That said, it doesn't mean you're correct, or even in the same ballpark...which you're not. League play is absolutely about increasing the number of league players AND about improving one's skills at the table. There is no inclination to keep fees secret, and most LO's are more interested in being mostly transparent. VNEA and APA are still very strong in CO, and other areas.

About top-heavy payouts...are you serious? Pro tournaments have had top-heavy payouts for decades. Nothing new there.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Island Drive said:
Leagues are most often about money, and increasing play for the business (they have near ZERO concern about the sport), especially on evenings that are slow compared to the weekends. If they are able to get everyone too show up one more time having a playoff, that's what it's all about. Very seldom/if ever....do we EVER see anything that's created, for the game itself. Leagues are either functional or politically dysfunctional, with non disclosure of league operators actions/fund$, basically ''what's in in for me'' the norm. In our area years ago, where CO had MORE leagues than ANY other state, these types of actions were prevalent. One very obvious result, was if the league operators team was NOT able to win the season, then the payout would NEVER be top heavy, but if their team had a good chance at winning then top heavy money was expected.
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FranCrimi said:
Are league playoffs fair?

Some years ago, I played in a 14.1 league, and after 12 weeks, I won my division. I received zero dollars and no trophy for winning my division.

I was then informed that there would be playoffs to follow. I was placed in a single-elimination chart along with 16 other players and told that this would determine how I finished in the league.

I lost a match somewhere early in the tournament, so my 12 weeks of hard work, preparation, showing up, playing matches and fighting for each win, all came down to one single elimination event with ultimately, nothing to show for it.

Who came up with the idea of league playoffs? Years ago, I used to be on a bowling team. We had position nights every 4th night and at the end, it all came down to the best record over the length of the league. There was no single elimination tournament to determine the winner.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that playoffs do is basically negate all you did the entire season.
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Fran,

This sounds like what most APA leagues do. No guaranteed money to the local league. It's horrible.

Our league pays out around $30,000 annually, and over half of that goes to individuals based on how they finish the season. The rest is split between our several team and individual tournaments / playoffs.

Every person and team in the league has an opportunity to compete in the postseason. Our players love it. It is fair and it is fun. If you happen to live in the Santa Barbara area check it out.

If you want to start your own league and would like tips on how to set up your format, PM me.

Chris Ackler
 
I'm of the opinion that the league will suffer atrophy over time if you don't have playoffs, involving more than one team with a chance at the championship each session.

Many times one team will begin to run away with a session, with no other team having a chance to catch them. Basic human instinct would be to say "why bother doing this any more". And then quitting. Or not playing next session. The more teams that realize that they have no chance unless they finish first, the more will quit and not play. Then the league shrinks, and the payoffs also shrink.

The more people that are involved in "having a chance", the more people you will attract to your league. Of course it needs to be balanced, and not simply having every team make the playoffs, else the session means nothing.

The best team during the session will have the best seeding, will play the weakest opponent in the playoffs, and in our case will also be the "home team" meaning the match is played at their host location, and on their choice of tables. So there is some reward for finishing higher than others in the playoffs.

I enjoy it here. Of course, the way our LO runs it, all four teams who make the playoffs will get some prize money. The second and third place teams will get a plaque, and the first place team will get trophies, one for the team and one for each of the players. And of course the highest payout as well.

It works, well.
 
Scott Lee said:
Greg...Are you sure your numbers are right? Seems like you'd likely have a 10 week session, meaning $25 into the "pot" each week, to get to the $250 total $. That would mean you only had 5 players in the entire league. That seems unlikely.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
No I am not sure on the numbers.

The final payout was not huge but decent. Was a small in house league invented to put money in the pockets of the brothers. Probably four, three person teams.

So if we played each of the other teams twice, that would be six weeks. That seems about right. So 12 players x 6 x 5= $360. I guess I was sandbagging my winnings a bit.;);)
 
Isn't that kind of like hockey? Your team is in the playoffs if you have enough live, breathing players to field a team regardless of how you've done all season.

I guess the best that can be said is it gives players a chance at winning even if they didn't do well during the season.
 
Although leagues may be keeping many rooms & pool bars over the top on cash flow, I
believe that leagues helped with the downslide in the first place.
Toward the late 70's when leagues started to get popular I would go out to play, and all
the tables would in occupied by the league and league players practicing.
Good for the owner, bad for the serious player, and eventually people like me got more into golf, women, and a serious career.
The annoying pool leagues kind of pushed a lot of the 60's money players out, and gambling in bars got old real fast.
Subsequently a lot of experience and knowledge just disappeared.

I came back 30-years later (after my divorce) joined an APA team, and met some girls
that needed help with their game, it was a lot of fun.
Back when I was young I couldn't get into playing pool for "fun".
Just my opinion
 
justadub said:
I'm of the opinion that the league will suffer atrophy over time if you don't have playoffs, involving more than one team with a chance at the championship each session.

Many times one team will begin to run away with a session, with no other team having a chance to catch them. Basic human instinct would be to say "why bother doing this any more". And then quitting. Or not playing next session. The more teams that realize that they have no chance unless they finish first, the more will quit and not play. Then the league shrinks, and the payoffs also shrink.

The more people that are involved in "having a chance", the more people you will attract to your league. Of course it needs to be balanced, and not simply having every team make the playoffs, else the session means nothing.

The best team during the session will have the best seeding, will play the weakest opponent in the playoffs, and in our case will also be the "home team" meaning the match is played at their host location, and on their choice of tables. So there is some reward for finishing higher than others in the playoffs.

I enjoy it here. Of course, the way our LO runs it, all four teams who make the playoffs will get some prize money. The second and third place teams will get a plaque, and the first place team will get trophies, one for the team and one for each of the players. And of course the highest payout as well.

It works, well.
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But rather, how about a league where if you're at a certain level, the longer you stay, the better your chances, because your handicap will adjust in your favor at the beginning of each year? You still have to compete every week and win your fair share of matches. This would seem better than a one-shot deal in the end.

I would rather reward players for participating year after year rather than set up a system built out of fear that players might drop out.
 
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bdorman said:
Isn't that kind of like hockey? Your team is in the playoffs if you have enough live, breathing players to field a team regardless of how you've done all season.
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Not quite. Despite the fact that many teams make the playoffs, no Canadian team managed to make the NHL playoffs this year.

Gideon<-----Sad Leafs fan
 
Fran,

Not my idea of a well structured league/payout. I personally would reward the top teams some determined amount (% of prize pool) of money determined by placement and the end of the season. This could be say 50% of total prize pool. Then, I would have a playoff for the rest of the prize pool with seeding based on finish. I think the league must keep people playing through the whole season and the possibility of winning the post season playoffs provides that possibility.

Al
 
FranCrimi said:
Are league playoffs fair?

Some years ago, I played in a 14.1 league, and after 12 weeks, I won my division. I received zero dollars and no trophy for winning my division.

I was then informed that there would be playoffs to follow. I was placed in a single-elimination chart along with 16 other players and told that this would determine how I finished in the league.

I lost a match somewhere early in the tournament, so my 12 weeks of hard work, preparation, showing up, playing matches and fighting for each win, all came down to one single elimination event with ultimately, nothing to show for it.

Who came up with the idea of league playoffs? Years ago, I used to be on a bowling team. We had position nights every 4th night and at the end, it all came down to the best record over the length of the league. There was no single elimination tournament to determine the winner.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that playoffs do is basically negate all you did the entire season.
Click to expand...

Did you at least get a patch? LOL
 
FranCrimi said:
But rather, how about a league where if you're at a certain level, the longer you stay, the better your chances, because your handicap will adjust in your favor at the beginning of each year? You still have to compete every week and win your fair share of matches. This would seem better than a one-shot deal in the end.

I would rather reward players for participating year after year rather than set up a system built out of fear that players might drop out.
Click to expand...

Most of our teams do continue to participate, year in, year out. Handicaps are adjusted continuously all year round, so to alter that would disrupt the whole system (APA) which isnt gonna happen.

Only four teams make the playoffs, so its not an "everyone gets a prize deal", but more than one team has a chance to continue, after a 14-15 week session, more than one team gets rewarded.

Next week is the last week of our session, and the top 3 teams are still undecided. It generates a lot of excitement, and those of us who dont have a chance to make the top 3 still need to try, cuz we dont want others letting up if we were in contention in a different session.

Sorry you dont enjoy it. It works well for us here.
 
How about a format where the top N players are placed in a linear bracket. Then player N plays N-1, winner plays N-2 etc. until the last guy standing plays number 1 for first place. Season standing actually means something. The worst you can do is 1 place lower than you finished the season but everyone who makes the playoffs has an opportunity to win it all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
AF pool guy said:
How about a format where the top N players are placed in a linear bracket. Then player N plays N-1, winner plays N-2 etc. until the last guy standing plays number 1 for first place. Season standing actually means something. The worst you can do is 1 place lower than you finished the season but everyone who makes the playoffs has an opportunity to win it all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm not understanding why, after so many weeks of competition, players should be given the chance to dramatically upgrade their standing and prize money in the league in one shot, on the final day.

Why is it so important to have playoffs?
 
It does sound silly. My league just pays based on standings, and then there's and end-of-season tournament. The only thing I can think of is that some leagues dont like to straight-up reward the top players because then the best couple of players just get it every year. So they do the things to mix it up like most 9-balls on the break.
 
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