(FAQ) How do you use the tangent line?

[BeiberLvr]

The delusional factor is alive and well with you Rick. Shaun and Dave are definitely not the same person. Anyone who has "banned" under their screen name, put it there themselves. If you're really banned, you can't post. You'd think you would have figured that out by now, having been banned at least twice yourself.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The best way to know if someone is truly banned or not is to try to give them Rep.

If the option is NOT there, then that person is banned.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I always enjoyed watching Bob Ross's system myself.

I think that might speak volumes regarding you & others.

How many of Mr. Ross's paintings are famous & hanging in The Louvre Museum?

Not that it matters, but he made virtually no money from any sale of his paintings.

He taught a method of how to paint inferior paintings & made a vast some of money from selling art supplies & his "How To" videos.

How many of his students have famous paintings hanging in The Louvre Museum?

All Best Wishes for All,

PS You probably like paintings on black valour fabric too.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I and I am sure many here would agree with your statement once you get to a certain level after you spend thousands of hours playing.

However knowing this information and actively using it will greatly reduce the time it takes to learn it and for it to become that "feel" you just do naturally.

Shooting games is the absolute slowest and worse way to improve your game. Doing drills and learning the physics by repetitive work is the best and quickest way to learn every aspect of it.

One can spend their entire life doing drills & never actually learn to PLAY the game...

but they might be great at doing drills.

Training & actually Playing The Game at a high level are two totally different things.

That is why coaches in other sports value non real 'practice' games so much. They can be very telling about a player's true ability or lack thereof to actually "Play" the Game.

All Best Wishes for ALL

 

[ENGLISH!]

Kinda like a turd that's flushed, but keeps coming back up .......

.

Or maybe like a Redneck, that leaves his country cabin & goes to a restaurant in the city & then craps in the parking lot because he does not know that there are individuals that were smart enough to figure out a way to put flushing toilets into buildings in the Big Sophisticated City.

All Best Wishes for All.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

For the record,

Allan Sand's books are more than thorough. Each one has dozens, if not hundreds, of helpful diagrams for cue ball movement and patterns, each of which he has expertly play tested as well. Great stuff! Tangent line thoughts...

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here is quote from a player in his 30s from a PM he sent me Yesterday.

"I just don't like the gang mentality against quality debate."

I think it speaks volumes about a few individuals.

And... this thread went OFF when a certain instructor incorrectly clarified, technically, what Mr. Sand had said regarding the tangent line.

ALL Best Wishes for ALL.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

He made millions with his art and art supplies.

He wasn't a poor starving artist by any means.

You are really a piece of work.

AJM

I think that might speak volumes regarding you & others.

How many of Mr. Ross's paintings are famous & hanging in The Louvre Museum?

Not that it matters, but he made virtually no money from any sale of his paintings.

He taught a method of how to paint inferior paintings & made a vast some of money from selling art supplies & his "How To" videos.

How many of his students have famous paintings hanging in The Louvre Museum?

All Best Wishes for All,

PS You probably like paintings on black valour fabric too.

 

[ENGLISH!]

He made millions with his art and art supplies.

He wasn't a poor starving artist by any means.

You are really a piece of work.

AJM

He made virtually no money at all from his paintings as he sold virtually none of them.

He made multi millions from the sales of art supplies & his "How To" videos. (Those that can not do...teach.)

I had that in my earlier post, but somehow I must have deleted that sentence.

Yes, I am a piece of work. I AM a Masterpiece Created by the Mind & Intentions of God

Some others have allowed themselves to be led astray, that is why it is very very important for individuals to make their own determinations & to NOT be led astray by those that have ulterior motives & agendas.

All Best Wishes for ALL.

 

[Neil]

Or maybe like a Redneck, that leaves his country cabin & goes to a restaurant in the city & then craps in the parking lot because he does not know that there are individuals that were smart enough to figure out a way to put flushing toilets into buildings in the Big Sophisticated City.

All Best Wishes for All.

He was describing you, and you just gave him another way to describe yourself. :rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

 

[ENGLISH!]

He was describing you, and you just gave him another way to describe yourself. :rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

---------------------------------------------

 

[erhino41]

Thirty degrees is just an average over a wide range of shots. If one learns how to adjust the peace-sign angle a little larger for cuts closer to a 1/2-ball hit and a little smaller for cuts closer to 1/4-ball and 3/4-ball, and if one learns to shift the peace sign a little down the tangent line to account for faster speed, the CB direction can be predicted very accurately (e.g., to avoid a scratch, break out balls, get position through tight traffic, etc.).

Regards,
Dave

I do not need that explained to me, thanks. It has been put forth that you should just teach beginners the thirty degree rule and that it isn't beneficial to go into detail about how the ball moves along the ninety degree line before it does anything else, not by you but by others in this post and in general. To be certain, i have no argument with what you are saying and one can be very successful using this method. I can certainly see how useful having thirty degrees as a reference line can be for a beginner, but there is so much more to it than that. I did not learn this way. I learned to make the ball go where I want it to at will by varying tip offset, speed and manipulating the cut angle.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Also do you know exactly what the rolling speed of a ball is vs one that will have some top spin coming out of the collision? Just how hard can you hit a ball so it will ONLY be rolling out of a collision? do you know exactly how man feet per second that is?

What exactly did you mean by rolling speed verses one that has top spin and what did you mean by "ONLY rolling out of a collision"? Are you trying to differentiate between a naturally rolling cue ball verses one with "overspin" or did you mean something else?

 

[ENGLISH!]

I do not need that explained to me, thanks. It has been put forth that you should just teach beginners the thirty degree rule and that it isn't beneficial to go into detail about how the ball moves along the ninety degree line before it does anything else, not by you but by others in this post and in general. To be certain, i have no argument with what you are saying and one can be very successful using this method. I can certainly see how useful having thirty degrees as a reference line can be for a beginner, but there is so much more to it than that. I did not learn this way. I learned to make the ball go where I want it to at will by varying tip offset, speed and manipulating the cut angle.

------------:thumbup2:----------------

 

[ENGLISH!]

What exactly did you mean by rolling speed verses one that has top spin and what did you mean by "ONLY rolling out of a collision"? Are you trying to differentiate between a naturally rolling cue ball verses one with "overspin" or did you mean something else?

It's been said that a cue ball can not be hit with top spin on it.

The reason is because the ball will roll since there is nothing to inhibit that rolling.

When a CB is hit with speed it will roll faster & when it collides with another ball it WILL spin & that spin will 'eventually' take when the friction allows.

I was just trying to not get into a vernacular war with a certain group.

All Best Wishes for You & Yours... & ALL.

PS How & where have you been?

 

[Poolplaya9]

It's been said that a cue ball can not be hit with top spin on it.

The reason is because the ball will roll since there is nothing to inhibit that rolling.

When a CB is hit with speed it will roll faster & when it collides with another ball it WILL spin & that spin will 'eventually' take when the friction allows.

I was just trying to not get into a vernacular war with a certain group.

All Best Wishes for You & Yours... & ALL.

PS How & where have you been?

I agree that with a level cue for all practical purposes a cue ball cannot be hit with overspin top spin. Any overspin that the cue ball has after collision with the object ball is simply a function of how fast it was rolling (some other things like how slick the cloth is, and how full the hit was, whether it was partial or full natural roll, etc, also have an effect). For those that aren't already familiar with this and still believe you can put massive overspin top spin on the cue ball, Mike Page of FargoRate did a good job covering the topic along with a demonstration/experiment in the link below and Dr. Dave likely addresses it on his website as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

I'm still confused by your statement I quoted though because (assuming the cue ball and object are equal weights and the cue ball is not air born at collision) if any cue ball goes forward of the tangent line after collision I would think we know that it had "collision induced overspin." We know that collision induced top overspin can only have happened if the cue ball was rolling at the time of collision. I guess what is confusing to me is that I'm not sure that "ONLY rolling out of a collision" is possible if it went forward of the tangent line but I may still be misunderstanding you.

As to how/where I've been, I have been ok but take extended breaks from the forums pretty regularly. Life sometimes gets in the way but mostly I can only deal with the idiocy around here for so long before I have to escape it for a while. Wish I was more tolerant of stupidity and ignorance but I'm not.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree that with a level cue for all practical purposes a cue ball cannot be hit with overspin top spin. Any overspin that the cue ball has after collision with the object ball is simply a function of how fast it was rolling (some other things like how slick the cloth is, and how full the hit was, whether it was partial or full natural roll, etc, also have an effect). For those that aren't already familiar with this and still believe you can put massive overspin top spin on the cue ball, Mike Page of FargoRate did a good job covering the topic along with a demonstration/experiment in the link below and Dr. Dave likely addresses it on his website as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

I'm still confused by your statement I quoted though because (assuming the cue ball and object are equal weights and the cue ball is not air born at collision) if any cue ball goes forward of the tangent line after collision I would think we know that it had "collision induced overspin." We know that collision induced top overspin can only have happened if the cue ball was rolling at the time of collision. I guess what is confusing to me is that I'm not sure that "ONLY rolling out of a collision" is possible if it went forward of the tangent line but I may still be misunderstanding you.

As to how/where I've been, I have been ok but take extended breaks from the forums pretty regularly. Life sometimes gets in the way but mostly I can only deal with the idiocy around here for so long before I have to escape it for a while. Wish I was more tolerant of stupidity and ignorance but I'm not.

Can you explain what you mean by "collision INDUCED overspin"?

Best to Ya,
Rick

 

[PoolChump]

I agree that with a level cue for all practical purposes a cue ball cannot be hit with overspin top spin. Any overspin that the cue ball has after collision with the object ball is simply a function of how fast it was rolling (some other things like how slick the cloth is, and how full the hit was, whether it was partial or full natural roll, etc, also have an effect). For those that aren't already familiar with this and still believe you can put massive overspin top spin on the cue ball, Mike Page of FargoRate did a good job covering the topic along with a demonstration/experiment in the link below and Dr. Dave likely addresses it on his website as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

I'm still confused by your statement I quoted though because (assuming the cue ball and object are equal weights and the cue ball is not air born at collision) if any cue ball goes forward of the tangent line after collision I would think we know that it had "collision induced overspin." We know that collision induced top overspin can only have happened if the cue ball was rolling at the time of collision. I guess what is confusing to me is that I'm not sure that "ONLY rolling out of a collision" is possible if it went forward of the tangent line but I may still be misunderstanding you.

As to how/where I've been, I have been ok but take extended breaks from the forums pretty regularly. Life sometimes gets in the way but mostly I can only deal with the idiocy around here for so long before I have to escape it for a while. Wish I was more tolerant of stupidity and ignorance but I'm not.

Depending on the stroke type, OVERSPIN on a top spin hit can result. With so much power and force the cue ball jumps up and the OVERSPIN takes over regardless of of angle and cloth. It is like an extreme force follow. :thumbup: Firepower!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Are you SpiderWeb.com?

You both have "Banned" under your names when you're not.

You have "silenced" under your name, and that's HARDLY the case. Once again, I have no clue what point you're trying to make. Monkeys with typewriters....one day you're gonna come up with something that makes sense

 

[Drop The Rock]

It's been said that a cue ball can not be hit with top spin on it.

The reason is because the ball will roll since there is nothing to inhibit that rolling.

When a CB is hit with speed it will roll faster & when it collides with another ball it WILL spin & that spin will 'eventually' take when the friction allows.

I was just trying to not get into a vernacular war with a certain group.

All Best Wishes for You & Yours... & ALL.

PS How & where have you been?

Okay what in the actual /*%@#$^&%$@#^ does that mean? I'm not saying you said this, but I'd love to know where this school of thought comes from.

In regards to the rest of this. I have no idea how you play but I do know how I do. I have run a 2 pack before and broke and run out a handful of times. I have also run 8+ and out a handful of times. Pool comes naturally to me from a mechanics standpoint. However, I am not by any means a visual person/learner. I learn from reading and listening, then doing. I have been able to do the above mentioned things, but I'm probably a C verging on B player that's still lacking cue ball control basics at times. I used to use bottom, bottom outside, top outside and top inside exclusively because I couldn't visually predict the cue balls path off the rail so I tried for 2-3 rail shape, spinning the cue ball like crazy. I now use whatever is necessary but use the natural path of the cue ball as a base line. I also don't need to used 2-3 tips of English anymore to get shape unless necessary.

I wish I had listened to Hillbilly when he showed me a lot of the "technical" stuff that has been thrown around. What I did listen to him about really helped improve my game. Yes, I have learned things from playing in tournaments and gambling, but the biggest keys for my improvement has been filling the fundamental gaps in my game. I know that if I'm capable of doing what I mentioned above, I can do it more often if I become more consistent and learn to control my cue ball more dynamically. Another pro, Manny Chau showed me several drills involving cue ball control. Those concepts helped me improve a lot.

I'm not saying it has to be done a certain way. What I am saying is that very few players pick up a cue and intuitively learn the game. Its all well and fine for everyone to try, but one thing I had to accept is that I only grasped some of the game naturally. I know that if I ever want to get to a high level, that I'm going to have to learn/study as much as I play. I'd say among pool players that have been player for the same amount of time I have, that I'm in the 75th percentile. I'm not going to improve anymore by simply just playing.

A very good gambler/one pocket player here in Houston told me this: The players who only use systems will only get so far but will be able to play at that speed in most environments. The natural player achieve decent speed quickly, but will play inconsistent without a solid understanding of the game. The true champions and students of the game are the ones that understand pool requires both heart and brain to achieve success. The world beaters (Efrens, Earls, Kos, most Filipinos lol) are the naturals that just simply know/learn the game inside and out intuitively. Its not that they don't use systems, but that they use/do most subconsciously. Some of us have to learn this and some of us will never learn this.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Can you explain what you mean by "collision INDUCED overspin"?

Best to Ya,
Rick

Overspin requires slippage of the ball against the cloth, and that slippage doesn't really occur with top overspin until it hits something like the object ball to suddenly slow or stop its forward progress, hence my reference to the overspin/slippage as being induced by the collision.