(FAQ) How do you use the tangent line?

Poolplaya9 said:
No mistake made in this case. While I agree that it is important to keep in mind how people learn, contrary to what you suggest everybody without exception will benefit from knowing the tangent line concept. When you couple that fact with the fact that it only takes a couple of minutes to learn, literally, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever not to teach it or learn it, and sooner rather than later.
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I think what Fran was saying is that there are some players who already know the concept intuitively and perhaps subconsciously.

I think she is also saying that if Josh Roberts asked for a tune up she wouldnt be bringing that up
 
Drop The Rock said:
I think what Fran was saying is that there are some players who already know the concept intuitively and perhaps subconsciously.

I think she is also saying that if Josh Roberts asked for a tune up she wouldnt be bringing that up
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You either know that a sliding cue ball leaves the object ball at *exactly* a 90 degree angle from the line of centers at contact (with equally weighted balls), or you don't. Saying they know it intuitively is the same thing as saying "they don't know it but get surprisingly close in their judgments" or "they don't know it but still manage to play pretty good shape". And while it may be possible that could be true, if they don't consciously know that it is *exactly* 90 degrees then they will never be as good as they would be if they did--even if they are Shane Van Boening. And if they are a newer player another benefit is that they get better significantly faster by knowing it and will shave a lot of time off the learning curve.

As for Josh Roberts, I said a couple of things that kind of covered that. The first was that I can't imagine a good player not knowing it so that is pretty unlikely to begin with. Second, I didn't argue for exactly when it should be taught, only that an instructor that didn't think it should be taught to everyone at some point is an incompetent fool. But really, if Josh Roberts didn't know it the instructor he went to should teach it to him immediately no matter what the other pressing issues are because A) it is a very simple concept and B) only takes literally a couple of minutes to teach and C) would provide some benefit (even if very small) so there is literally no reason whatsoever not to.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
You either know that a sliding cue ball leaves the object ball at *exactly* a 90 degree angle from the line of centers at contact (with equally weighted balls), or you don't. Saying they know it intuitively is the same thing as saying "they don't know it but get surprisingly close in their judgments" or "they don't know it but still manage to play pretty good shape". And while it may be possible that could be true, if they don't consciously know that it is *exactly* 90 degrees then they will never be as good as they would be if they did--even if they are Shane Van Boening. And if they are a newer player another benefit is that they get better significantly faster by knowing it and will shave a lot of time off the learning curve.

As for Josh Roberts, I said a couple of things that kind of covered that. The first was that I can't imagine a good player not knowing it so that is pretty unlikely to begin with. Second, I didn't argue for exactly when it should be taught, only that an instructor that didn't think it should be taught to everyone at some point is an incompetent fool. But really, if Josh Roberts didn't know it the instructor he went to should teach it to him immediately no matter what the other pressing issues are because A) it is a very simple concept and B) only takes literally a couple of minutes to teach and C) would provide some benefit (even if very small) so there is literally no reason whatsoever not to.
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Intuitively know its exactly 90 deg. either by common sense or observation. I understand that what I'm saying is a bit of an oxymoron but I still stand with it.

In other words, they didn't have to figure it out from a forum, lesson, or book.

What I am saying is that I do not believe Fran is an incompetent fool (not saying that this is what you are implying). I believe she approaches teaching with a certain amount of discretion after observing a player or listening to their questions.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
No mistake made in this case. While I agree that it is important to keep in mind how people learn, contrary to what you suggest everybody without exception will benefit from knowing the tangent line concept. When you couple that fact with the fact that it only takes a couple of minutes to learn, literally, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever not to teach it or learn it, and sooner rather than later.
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This makes a lot of sense to me, whereas "don't think about things like tangent lines" makes no sense to me. A couple of general points:

First, the idea that people have different learning styles is the most debunked idea in learning since "people only use 10% of their brains." People have different skills and interests, sure, but we all learn in basically the same way. If a principle is true and useful to one person, it will almost certainly be true and useful to another person.

Second, one of the hallmarks of expertise in anything, including sport, is metacognition: People that are good at something understand it, know how it works, know why it works, etc. It's a myth that experts just go on gut feel and don't understand why they do what they do. I know we talk in pool about great players who can't accurately express why something happens, or "scientists" who know it on paper but can't play, but as a rule there's a very high relationship between skill and understanding that's been found in lots of different areas. Unlike the "learning styles" hoo-ha, the metacognition of expertise actually is a well-established principle. I don't know how one can square that fact with the "don't think about the technicalities, you'll just get it with time" philosophy.
 
Drop The Rock said:
Intuitively know its exactly 90 deg. either by common sense or observation. I understand that what I'm saying is a bit of an oxymoron but I still stand with it.

In other words, they didn't have to figure it out from a forum, lesson, or book.
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I don't think you can intuitively know it is *exactly* 90 degrees. If you did then you would consciously know it too. But even if you could know it *exactly* through intuition alone without ever consciously knowing it, it still makes far more sense to learn it in literally two minutes from a forum, lesson, book, or instructor than however long it would take to learn it intuitively.
 
I agree...

Poolplaya9 said:
I don't think you can intuitively know it is *exactly* 90 degrees. If you did then you would consciously know it too. But even if you could know it *exactly* through intuition alone without ever consciously knowing it, it still makes far more sense to learn it in literally two minutes from a forum, lesson, book, or instructor than however long it would take to learn it intuitively.
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I've shown the tangent line, the 30 degree rule and explain hardness of hit, softness of hit along with follow and draw to people that have been playing for 20 years, and it's almost always the same reaction...

Damn I wish I would've known that years ago...

JAden
 
Tap, tap, tap, Jaden. I teach exactly the same thing, the same way...and get the same reaction from many long time players! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Jaden said:
I've shown the tangent line, the 30 degree rule and explain hardness of hit, softness of hit along with follow and draw to people that have been playing for 20 years, and it's almost always the same reaction...

Damn I wish I would've known that years ago...

JAden
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SilverCue said:
http://poolknowledge.com

Regardless of the speed of the cue ball and the angle that the cue ball and object ball contact, the cue ball will travel away from the object ball and the contact point between them at right angles.

Where is the tangent line travel when shooting straight on with follow or draw?
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the moment it strikes the ob it is on the tangent line, because of the lack of cut angle the cb travels 0 distance along the tangent before the follow/draw takes
 
FranCrimi said:
In all the years I've played competitive pool, I never asked myself where the tangent line on any shot was. I also never asked myself what adjustment I had to make to make the cue ball veer off the tangent line at a particular point. That kind of stuff works well on paper and in the classroom, but when you're playing, you either know what to do or you don't. If you don't, you need to play more.

No matter how much you may need technicalities in your life, you can't calculate your way through a pool match. Well, you can try but don't expect great results.
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fair but know the stuff on paper makes it about 1000x easier to learn by rote
 
My daughters love them little oranges. I dont care for em, myself. Too sweet. I much t-like a regaler orange. I prefer to drink my oj with 1/3 water, 2/3 jukce and 1/3 vodka.
 
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