APA Cost Analysis vs Pro Tour

It doesn't matter who gets which portion of the money. Whether it's a franchise owner or the corporation. The fact is there is a boat load of money coming in and an extremely large profit margin. Please explain how my revenue calculation is so wrong? The franchise owners and the corporation collectively.

And after you take the profit out of it for the people doing the work of running the league, why in the world do you expect them to keep doing the work? If YOUR job cut your pay to the bone would you still work at it?

Revenue is meaningless in a vacuum and that is where you put it.

I have a good idea, let's take $.05 out of each McDonalds meal sold and use it to fund 5-star chefs.

There is almost as much economic illiteracy in this thread as there is in the US Congress.
 
here is another problem with this "theory"

Is it a 9 ball/ 10 ball Pro Tour?
is it a Straight Pool Pro Tour?
Is it a Bank Pool Pro Tour?
is it a One Pocket Pro Tour?

Top 3 are hurting real bad. The one pocket is gaining steam from the streaming matches and the numbers are strong and climbing!

The sport has so many games and variations that in fighting over what games are funded and how things are allocated, will be the death of any venture or progress.

KD

I think bank pool and speed pool would have the best shot of getting more viewers and a tour per se. They can be exciting to watch to the casual observer.

One pocket and straight pool can be so slow which causes most casual players to lose interest.
 
And after you take the profit out of it for the people doing the work of running the league, why in the world do you expect them to keep doing the work? If YOUR job cut your pay to the bone would you still work at it?

Revenue is meaningless in a vacuum and that is where you put it.

I have a good idea, let's take $.05 out of each McDonalds meal sold and use it to fund 5-star chefs.

There is almost as much economic illiteracy in this thread as there is in the US Congress.

Play that out some.....

I know that I pay my mechanic a helluva alot of money, he should have to give some of that to NASCAR.

Play league softball? Damn, get some of those fees to Major League Baseball.

Same with when you are in a bowling league, the pro's need it, dammit!
 
Well then you are smart. However 250,000 suckers out there keep playing every week...

And I never said it was my money. Please find a quote where I said that...

So you not only want to take the league players' money from them and use it for your own purpose, you want to insult them along the way.

If the league players are so stupid and such suckers, it should be child's play for you to devise a league system that accomplishes your goals and sell it to the players and pros.

Go for it.
 
Play that out some.....

I know that I pay my mechanic a helluva alot of money, he should have to give some of that to NASCAR.

Play league softball? Damn, get some of those fees to Major League Baseball.

Same with when you are in a bowling league, the pro's need it, dammit!

I'm sure the PGA would love to have their purses enhanced by having a dime from every greens fee in America diverted to them..
 
This is business, right? So where is the quid pro quo?
What would the pro players be giving back to the APA to make it worth the APA giving them money? This type of logic is flawed and what's wrong with this country. Everyone wants a hand out from the companies and corporations that make money and employ people but don't want to have to work for it or do anything to make it worthwhile, other than saying, you have it so I should get some.
I know if I owned an APA franchise I would laugh uncontrollably if you asked me to give away my money to pro players with nada in return.
 
As I said before, franchise owners aren't excluded from supporting the pro tour. They need to contribute to this as well.

Why don't YOU "contribute" ? How big of a % of YOUR income are you gonna give up????? You play pool, correct? The why shouldn't YOU pay?

Jason<--------waiting for a ridiculous answer
 
It's beautiful for the APA. It's ugly for the 250,000 members lol. Since I never hear any complaints, I assume the APA members are content with their payouts.
The first rule of reasoning is that you must use logic. If APA members aren't complaining, then it obviously isn't ugly for them like you state, now is it? They obviously feel they are getting a decent value out of their money spent. Nothing ugly about that at all. And for those that do complain, if they are still putting their money into it then they obviously still feel it is a good enough value too, regardless of what they are saying. Actions speak louder than words.

However, the pro pool world is in serious need of financing.
And I need a new boat. So frickin what. If you don't get the point, the point is that it isn't even a need--it is a want, and not a very important want in the scheme of things. It isn't like pro pool plays some valuable role in the world. Yes it is a nice thing to have, and yes it brings some joy to an extremely small segment of the population, but you act like pro pool is equal to cancer research or something, like it is a real need for anybody.

I'm just bringing to light the fact that rather complaining that there is no money in pool because it's not televised, we should starting looking at the leagues that are taking it all and not investing anything back into the sport.
First, pro pool isn't a need. The money you want to steal or strong arm or pressure from other people to give to pro pool could instead be put to far better uses. Ever thought about that? No, because you don't care. You are just trying to fill YOUR own personal selfish wants, instead of looking at what the majority wants, or even better, looking at what the real NEEDS are out there as opposed to what you as a single individual selfishly wants.

But even if pro pool was a worthy need, what gives you the right to feel that you should have any say in how someone else spends their money? You said you don't believe you have that right, yet every single post on here is telling someone else what they should earning and what they should be doing with their money, and trying to organize other people to pressure them to do what YOU want them to do with THEIR money.

Well I don't like the way you spend your money either. I think you should be giving at least $10,000 a year to the American Cancer Society. It is a far better cause than pro pool, and I doubt even you will argue that. So how do you feel about me telling you what you have to do with your money, even when you agree it is a good cause? Imagine how much more you would be against it if you didn't even feel it was a good cause? Truth is, you don't care what I tell you to do with your money or how good the cause is because you don't feel I have the right to tell you what to do with YOUR money. But yet you want to be a hypocrite and feel you have the right to say what somebody else should do with theirs.

For the fiftieth time, why do you think you have the right to tell others what they should do with their money when you don't think anybody else should be telling you what to do with yours? Do you really think you are that special and that above every other person that you should have special rights that nobody else has?

As of recently, Corey Deuel has been trying to get support from the leagues and it seems that everyone is against it saying things like: "Why should a portion of my league fees go the pros? They haven't done anything for me." I don't get it. What does the APA do for you with that extra money?
As covered above, the APA provides an acceptable to good value to its members as proven by the fact that the members continue to pay for it. The APA provides for its members competition, opportunity to socialize with friends and to also meet new people, it covers table time for doing something they love, even provides for free table time to practice in many cases, and it provides the opportunity to earn mostly expense paid trips to Las Vegas and other places and it does all kinds of other things for its members too. The better question is what are the pros doing for the APA members? Zero. So why again do you think APA members shouldn't want their money going to that which actually does do many things for them but that it should instead go to something that does absolutely zero for them? Remember, the first rule of reasoning is using logic.

For some reason everyone is against the leagues sponsoring or running any sort of pro tour with the millions of dollars they are collecting from the amateurs.
It isn't so much that they are against the APA supporting pro pool, although most probably feel there are better ways that money could be spent (like giving to the American Cancer Society, or better payouts for leagues and tournaments, etc). What they are against is one person being able to tell another how they have to spend their money if that isn't the way they want to spend their money.

Let me ask you again. I'm sure you don't feel it is my place to tell you that you earn too much money for what you do, and that you should be giving $10,000 to the American Cancer Society every year. So why do you feel that you are somehow special and can tell other people how much they should earn and how they should spend their money?
 
Shane Van Boening and other players out grow APA and reach a very high level!

Then get kicked out for being too good and a pro player.

Not that pro players don't want to contribute. But, get kicked out because the dead money can't stand being skunked 7 to zip.

It happens once or twice and they are gone with the wind!

Blaming pro players for reading the writing on the wall and leaving leagues to the lower level players is not a fair assessment!

League operators in my area have run off a number of pro level players for the greater good of their business! So, don't loss sight of that very "big" point!!!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
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Once pro players are shown the door! Its pretty hard to mend those fences! Additionally, pro players would love to "earn" a pro tour sponsored by APA or BCA or both!

Sadly, when they ask for guidance on "earning" it. They get crickets! Along with no comments!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
[Pros] get kicked out [of the APA] for being too good and a pro player.

Not that pro players don't want to contribute.

Aside from when they have been paid to do so, when was the last time you heard of pros trying to help out the APA in interviews by saying things like "I think people learning to play pool or even more experienced players should play in the APA. It is a good way to pick up the game while learning, and to meet people with more experience who will give you pointers, and you will have fun in the process". How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro showing up at an APA banquet to meet and greet league players. How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro wanting to do a free clinic or exhibition at an APA event to help them out. Yup, about as rare as a three dollar bill. Playing in the APA isn't the only way a pro could help out the APA. In fact it isn't even the best way. But pros choose not to help out in any way.

But that isn't even the issue here. The issue is that nobody should have to give any of their legally and honestly earned money to anyone that they don't want to. Nobody out there feels that anybody should be telling them how much money they should be able to earn, or how to spend their money, yet there are plenty of them that for some reason feel they are special enough that they should be able to tell others how much money they should be allowed to earn and how they should have to spend it.
 
APA League Cost Breakdown:

250,000+ Members (from APA Website)
$25 Annual Dues (from person experience)
$8 Weekly Fee (from personal experience)
$1,500,000 Annual Prize Payouts (from APA Website)

Assumptions:

150,000 members actively playing each week
30 weeks per year of league play

Rough Calcs:

250,000 members x $25 annual fee = $6,250,000
150,000 members x $8 per week x 30 weeks per year = $36,000,000
Total Revenue = $6,250,000 + $36,000,000 = 42,250,000 (42.3 Million Dollars)


Conclusion:

The APA is collecting 42.3 Million Dollars each year and only giving back 1.5 Million Dollars in annual payouts. So basically, the APA has 40.8 Million Dollars left over to pay for their annual overhead costs (operators, tournament setup, advertisement, accounting, lawyers, etc...) and collect the profit. The profit margin is sickening.

Why is it so crazy to think that the APA could expand by running a professional tour with monthly or biweekly $100,000 added tournaments?

Other factors/considerations:

1. This is only one league. There are many other leagues that make a lot of money as well.
2. These calculations are very conservative, I'm sure the actually amounts are much larger. For example, many players play on multiple teams each week.
3. The APA also receives money from sponsors. (Pool Dawg, Aramith, Action, etc...)
4. Creating a professional tour would increase league participation at the local level.
5. The amount of professional pool players would grow exponentially once the many short stops realize that there is a reason to put in the extra work to become a pro and make good money.
6. The APA would also make money on the pro tour, it wouldn't just be taking away from the league profits.
7. Televising the tour isn't even necessary, the money is already there!

THERE IS MONEY IN POOL! It's just not allocated correctly for pro's to survive...


get over it............ it's a business................ why don't you figure how much Ford Motor Company makes and then complain about that...................

Kim
 
Aside from when they have been paid to do so, when was the last time you heard of pros trying to help out the APA in interviews by saying things like "I think people learning to play pool or even more experienced players should play in the APA. It is a good way to pick up the game while learning, and to meet people with more experience who will give you pointers, and you will have fun in the process". How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro showing up at an APA banquet to meet and greet league players. How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro wanting to do a free clinic or exhibition at an APA event to help them out. Yup, about as rare as a three dollar bill. Playing in the APA isn't the only way a pro could help out the APA. In fact it isn't even the best way. But pros choose not to help out in any way.

But that isn't even the issue here. The issue is that nobody should have to give any of their legally and honestly earned money to anyone that they don't want to. Nobody out there feels that anybody should be telling them how much money they should be able to earn, or how to spend their money, yet there are plenty of them that for some reason feel they are special enough that they should be able to tell others how much money they should be allowed to earn and how they should have to spend it.

Regarding the comment in red!!!

I personally have been run off from league play! Manny Chau has been run off from league play! Brandon Shuff has been run off from league play! I know these for sure!

After having that experience, they are supposed to sing the APA praises and donate their time and knowledge to a league operator and organization that returns less than 4% in prizes???

You must admit, that is not a logical thing to do. Even, SVB made his start in the league systems and was extricated from them under the premise of being too good.

Regarding the part in black above:

The pro players would be happy with the option of "Donating" to a pro tour when paying league dues. Just like at pet smart, you get asked at check out if you would like to donate to the human society.

The above mentioned item takes nothing from the league, "at all". Plus, if successful could help the leagues and generate interest. Plus, other fun promotional things could be done to give back to those that contribute. Like: Free lessons with Archer or trips to the events, Free stream access & etc. Are all possible via a lottery system to say thank you for the donation!

But, pro players can not force the addition/option to be made by the leagues!!!

Kd
 
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No sh*t. Maybe this will put things into perspective:

You join a pool tournament. 50 players, $50 entry...$2,500 in the pot. The pool hall decides they will pay out $89 and keep the rest.

That's the same ratio of payouts (3.55%) as the APA.

By your logic: "It's not your money, why should you care? The pool hall can charge whatever green fees they want."

If this was the case no one would ever play in the tournament. Somehow the APA tricked everyone into accepting these terrible terms. It's crazy to me...

First you can at least acknowledge that your 3.55% is a complete guesstimate that means nothing.

Second, if you don't like the pay out then don't participate it is that simple.

Third, yes the pool hall can charge whatever green fees they like and again, if you don't like the setup, then don't play in the tournament.
 
Aside from when they have been paid to do so, when was the last time you heard of pros trying to help out the APA in interviews by saying things like "I think people learning to play pool or even more experienced players should play in the APA. It is a good way to pick up the game while learning, and to meet people with more experience who will give you pointers, and you will have fun in the process". How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro showing up at an APA banquet to meet and greet league players. How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro wanting to do a free clinic or exhibition at an APA event to help them out. Yup, about as rare as a three dollar bill. Playing in the APA isn't the only way a pro could help out the APA. In fact it isn't even the best way. But pros choose not to help out in any way.

But that isn't even the issue here. The issue is that nobody should have to give any of their legally and honestly earned money to anyone that they don't want to. Nobody out there feels that anybody should be telling them how much money they should be able to earn, or how to spend their money, yet there are plenty of them that for some reason feel they are special enough that they should be able to tell others how much money they should be allowed to earn and how they should have to spend it.



When did the APA or anyone in it support pool? Those that run it care only for profit & those in it only care for their Facking Vegas trip, oh and their drunk night out away from the wife & kids.
 
Shane Van Boening and other players out grow APA and reach a very high level!

Then get kicked out for being too good and a pro player.

Not that pro players don't want to contribute. But, get kicked out because the dead money can't stand being skunked 7 to zip.

It happens once or twice and they are gone with the wind!

Blaming pro players for reading the writing on the wall and leaving leagues to the lower level players is not a fair assessment!

League operators in my area have run off a number of pro level players for the greater good of their business! So, don't loss sight of that very "big" point!!!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Being that you can be a 7 or a 9 for the rest of your life and still play as long as you remain an amateur I would have to respectfully disagree with your assertion.

It was the choice of those players to remove their amateur status by becoming professional billiards players that had them removed.
 
Being that you can be a 7 or a 9 for the rest of your life and still play as long as you remain an amateur I would have to respectfully disagree with your assertion.

It was the choice of those players to remove their amateur status by becoming professional billiards players that had them removed.
They did not choose to remove themselves!

Have a good day at a tournament to test your game and accompanied by complaints from the peanut gallery! The next thing you know is your out or pressured to leave!

Top pro players make less than a couple thousand dollars! But, get branded pro for life.


Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
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A tour was supposed to be the goal when Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart started the Busch League way back when. Then they saw the golden goose.

Not sure everyone understand that Busch League is today's APA, maybe I'm wrong but thought I'd throw it out there just in case.
 
Regarding the comment in red!!!

I personally have been run off from league play! Manny Chau has been run off from league play! Brandon Shuff has been run off from league play! I know these for sure!

After having that experience, they are supposed to sing the APA praises and donate their time and knowledge to a league operator and organization that returns less than 4% in prizes???

You must admit, that is not a logical thing to do. Even, SVB made his start in the league systems and was extricated from them under the premise of being too good.

Regarding the part in black above:

The pro players would be happy with the option of "Donating" to a pro tour when paying league dues. Just like at pet smart, you get asked at check out if you would like to donate to the human society.

The above mentioned item takes nothing from the league, "at all". Plus, if successful could help the leagues and generate interest. Plus, other fun promotional things could be done to give back to those that contribute. Like: Free lessons with Archer or trips to the events, Free stream access & etc. Are all possible via a lottery system to say thank you for the donation!

But, pro players can not force the addition/option to be made by the leagues!!!

Kd

The first rule of reasoning is using logic...

First you say that it is not that the pros don't want to help the APA, it is that they are not able to. I pointed out several ways other ways they could easily help if they wanted to that do not require playing in the league (some of which take only a few seconds of talking and take no time, effort or money). Now you are changing your position to say that they could but just don't want to for reasons they and you feel are good ones. At least make up your mind on what it is that you actually believe before trying to argue it on a forum, ok?

On a side note I happen to disagree that the reasons you mention are good ones, but it doesn't really matter whether they are good reasons or not. For the purposes of the question I was answering (why would APA members want their money to go to the APA instead of to the pros) it doesn't matter why the pros aren't doing anything for the league members. It just matters that they aren't. People obviously want their money to go to someone who is doing something for them over someone who isn't.

But forget about the APA. When do you see currently active pro players doing anything meaningful to help out the sport as a whole? Pretty much never. It isn't even that they don't want to help out the APA unless they are being paid, it is that they don't want to help out anybody in the sport or even the sport itself unless they are directly and immediately compensated for it.

But again, all this only even came up because the OP asked the silly question of why league members would want their dues going to the APA instead of the pros. The obvious answer is because the APA is doing something for them and the pros aren't, and why the pros aren't helping doesn't really matter although you happen to have the why wrong IMO. None of this is important to the real issue, which is that like everybody else, the APA has a right to earn as much money as they legally and honestly can, and the right to spend it any way they see fit.
 
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