APA Cost Analysis vs Pro Tour

[Poolplaya9]

When did the APA or anyone in it support pool? Those that run it care only for profit & those in it only care for their Facking Vegas trip, oh and their drunk night out away from the wife & kids.

Who cares what the APA does for pool? They are a business, not a charity. Things that are to provide for yourself are called businesses. Things that are to provide for others are called charities. If you want to start a charity for pro pool then have at it, nobody is stopping you. But nobody has any right to tell someone with a business that they shouldn't try to run it successfully. That is the whole point of a business.

As for what the APA does for the APA league members, if the league members don't feel it is a good enough value then they won't do it. Plenty of people appear to feel it is a good enough value for them. Who am I to tell someone else what they should like spending their money on or what they should feel is a good value? If the APA league members are happy enough with the value they get from the money they spend then I am happy for them because in the end all that is important is the whether you feel you got a good enough value for your money, not whether somebody else feels you did.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

There is at least person in this thread thatshould never start a business

Or has ever had to buy paper on a weekly basis for 250,000 suckers to mark scores on....

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

When did the APA or anyone in it support pool? Those that run it care only for profit & those in it only care for their Facking Vegas trip, oh and their drunk night out away from the wife & kids.

When you say "support pool", what do you mean? They provide a venue where amateur players can go and play competitive pool games on a weekly basis, keep track of their handicaps, etc, provide them with pins and trophies, and only charge about two beers per week.......I think the APA does a heck of a lot more for pool than anyone else. So what if they make some money from it? Every guy selling cases, cues and aiming systems on here is doing the same thing, except the APA gives them a little something in return.

 

[Celophanewrap]

A tour was supposed to be the goal when Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart started the Busch League way back when. Then they saw the golden goose.

Let us not forget, there used to be a tour but that was years ago and the momentum is gone.
Personally I like the no smoking laws and rules but smoking and pool no longer go together
like they used to, so the Camel the RJ Reynolds money went away (especially after the big
law suit). It would be great if there was a new influx some big corporate money, even on a regional
level. If somehow Coors would get behind something here The official beer of Pro Billiards, and in other
areas around the US Southwest Airlines, The official Airlines of Pro Billiards, Pepsi Cola the official
Soft Drink of Pro Billiards, and so on.
It would also be great if the Pros would get involved. I know that you don't find Pros at The APA events,
maybe one or two that have been well paid, do they ever show to BCA or TAP or other league events?

 

[Scott Lee]

You're a little off here. The Camel Pro Tour was completely funded by RJ Reynolds. APA was merely a small sponsor of the pro events, and full sponsorship of the side-by-side amateur events. There was never a Bud Light Pro Tour. RJ Reynolds/Camel had a few events, spread over three years. It was nothing close to 12 a year.

The facts are that many successful APA LO's have retired and sold their franchises for huge profits, because the value has increased exponentially for the LO's who got into the league 20-30 years ago. Some franchises have been sold for a million dollars or more. That's why they're selling...not because they "couldn't make it work". In the history of the APA you can count on 1 or 2 hands the number of LO's whose franchises were "taken back" by Corporate APA for various reasons (mostly for stealing league funds).

Scott Lee Former APA LO
http://poolknowledge.com

The APA used to sponsor such events back in the days of the Camel Pro Tour and the Bud Light Pro Tour. I believe that 11 or 12 events per year.

I think one of the more telling things is the number of LO''s that have "retired" lately. Fact is many of the LO's that "retired" fell below their contractual obligations and either sold and retired or had the franchise reclaimed by the APA and resold to new money. So until the new money falls apart and is again resold, the numbers are crunched and it remains profitable, tben the cycle starts again. If you can ever get certain APA folks talking you'll find that there is money, but not enough to gamble with.

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...Pro players are not eligible to play in the APA. That's why Manny and Brandon can't play. I can't speak for you, and personally, I can't understand why any player who could beat the pants off of any amateur 7/9, let alone lower S/L's, gets some kind of 'kick' out of it. Even a pro is not gonna make $$$ in the APA. Sure some pros have slipped through the cracks, but when they win at the national tournaments they are weeded out, and 'retired'.

As for SVB, he was not 'extricated' from the amateur leagues. He won all or most of them, and GRADUATED to the big leagues voluntarily. That's a big difference, than being forced not to play.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Regarding the comment in red!!!

I personally have been run off from league play! Manny Chau has been run off from league play! Brandon Shuff has been run off from league play! I know these for sure!

After having that experience, they are supposed to sing the APA praises and donate their time and knowledge to a league operator and organization that returns less than 4% in prizes???

You must admit, that is not a logical thing to do. Even, SVB made his start in the league systems and was extricated from them under the premise of being too good.

Regarding the part in black above:

The pro players would be happy with the option of "Donating" to a pro tour when paying league dues. Just like at pet smart, you get asked at check out if you would like to donate to the human society.

The above mentioned item takes nothing from the league, "at all". Plus, if successful could help the leagues and generate interest. Plus, other fun promotional things could be done to give back to those that contribute. Like: Free lessons with Archer or trips to the events, Free stream access & etc. Are all possible via a lottery system to say thank you for the donation!

But, pro players can not force the addition/option to be made by the leagues!!!

Kd

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Mike...Pro players are not eligible to play in the APA. That's why Manny and Brandon can't play. I can't speak for you, and personally, I can't understand why any player who could beat the pants off of any amateur 7/9, let alone lower S/L's, gets some kind of 'kick' out of it. Even a pro is not gonna make $$$ in the APA. Sure some pros have slipped through the cracks, but when they win at the national tournaments they are weeded out, and 'retired'.

As for SVB, he was not 'extricated' from the amateur leagues. He won all or most of them, and GRADUATED to the big leagues voluntarily. That's a big difference, than being forced not to play.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Only reason I mentioned it at all was the premise that the players did nothing for the leagues and league members was mentioned!

It is relevant to the topic that at various points in the progression to pro level play. They were asked to resign once they reached a certain level!

It is better to say the leagues abandoned them more so than the pro level players abandoned the leagues.

Important point of distinction! In my opinion!

Many good suggestions were made here. Only time will tell if any good comes of it?

Kd

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[Poolplaya9]

Only reason I mentioned it at all was the premise that the players did nothing for the leagues and league members was mentioned!

It is relevant to the topic...

Most APA players don't want part of their money going to the pros because they could care less about the pros and because the pros don't do anything for them. You were incorrect about why you think the pros don't help the APA but even if you were right why do you feel that the reason why the pros don't do anything for the APA is at all relevant to the APA league members? The why is irrelevant. They don't care why the pros don't do anything for the APA. All they care about is whether they do or they don't, not why, and they generally could care less about the pros to begin with.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Most APA players don't want part of their money going to the pros because they could care less about the pros and because the pros don't do anything for them. You were incorrect about why you think the pros don't help the APA but even if you were right why do you feel that the reason why the pros don't do anything for the APA is at all relevant to the APA league members? The why is irrelevant. They don't care why the pros don't do anything for the APA. All they care about is whether they do or they don't, not why, and they generally could care less about the pros to begin with.

You are persistent!

Let's reverse things! Leagues were built off the mosconi's and Mizerak's and the leagues are riding the coat tails of pro pool and not the other way around! So, please stop vilifying pro pool which predates leagues and is largely due to its financial success!

Kd



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[Poolplaya9]

You are persistent!

Let's reverse things! Leagues were built off the mosconi's and Mizerak's and the leagues are riding the coat tails of pro pool and not the other way around! So, please stop vilifying pro pool which predates leagues and is largely due to its financial success!

Kd



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You really have some major comprehension problems. You still don't understand and or have a clue what you responded to to begin with. You totally changed the subject to something totally different than what was being discussed and don't even realize it.

 

[Scott Lee]

How about this? Leagues were built off the bar table manufacturers, and a couple of pro poolplayers, who had an idea for a franchised, handicapped pool league. A league, btw, that spawned a quarter million dues paying members! Those members have no clue who professional poolplayers are, and could care less, unfortunately. Sadly, there is no pro pool to vilify.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Let's reverse things! Leagues were built off the mosconi's and Mizerak's and the leagues are riding the coat tails of pro pool and not the other way around! So, please stop vilifying pro pool which predates leagues and is largely due to its financial success!

Kd



Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[Celophanewrap]

You're a little off here. The Camel Pro Tour was completely funded by RJ Reynolds. APA was merely a small sponsor of the pro events, and full sponsorship of the side-by-side amateur events. There was never a Bud Light Pro Tour. RJ Reynolds/Camel had a few events, spread over three years. It was nothing close to 12 a year.

The facts are that many successful APA LO's have retired and sold their franchises for huge profits, because the value has increased exponentially for the LO's who got into the league 20-30 years ago. Some franchises have been sold for a million dollars or more. That's why they're selling...not because they "couldn't make it work". In the history of the APA you can count on 1 or 2 hands the number of LO's whose franchises were "taken back" by Corporate APA for various reasons (mostly for stealing league funds).

Scott Lee Former APA LO
http://poolknowledge.com

I may be mis-remembering the Camel Pro Tour back in the 90's, you would know far better than me. I do recall counting the Camel Tour stops in the mid 90's, for at least a few years there were between 8 - 12 per. I seem to recall the Anheiser Busch name one a few events but I may be wrong. As far as the APA LO's and some of the franchises changing hands and why, I would respectfully disagree as to why.
As a former LO are you still involved much with The APA? I would think with your experience as an LO and as a player your advice and opinion would be priceless to The APA. Isn't there some sort of position available for you as a consultant or something like that? I mean the big APA events are pretty good but there should really be something besides a photo op with Jeanette Lee (as much as I love those photo ops) and a Florian Kohler show. I would imagine they could really benefit from your experience.

 

[cajunfats]

Correct Statement

How about this? Leagues were built off the bar table manufacturers, and a couple of pro poolplayers, who had an idea for a franchised, handicapped pool league. A league, btw, that spawned a quarter million dues paying members! Those members have no clue who professional poolplayers are, and could care less, unfortunately. Sadly, there is no pro pool to vilify.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott's statement is totally accurate. Leagues have never benefited from the concept of a pro pool entity. League players have a life, and pool is merely a recreational pastime,regardless of how high their skill level becomes. In any business sense of the word, there is no Return on Investment for a Professional Pool Organization. Not on any par with other comparative sports.

I have now been away from the BCA for 20 years. I still observe the goings on in the pool community. Only because I've been a fan for 50 years. Hell, I'm still waiting for a real brick and mortar Hall of Fame(No disrespect to the Gentleman in Chicago) funded and supported by the industry.

Nothing will come of a Pro Pool Organization until you get players out of the mix. It needs Business People who are interested in turning a profit for their "Athletes/Entertainers". As I stated before, I discovered many viable correlations while working in the film industry. As an Actor/Director/Producer you have a set of rules you must adhere to. Pro Pool Players are merely entertainers using pool as the vehicle or medium to showcase their talent. Who is the purchaser? Not League Players,that's for sure. The General Public? Nope!

Without an organization to support the intellectual property of the entertainer, and the legal means to protect residual income, players have no protection from their performances being taped,streamed,viewed,and rebroadcast. If players want to create a clearinghouse for their talents, they need to come together and make some hard choices. Remember, just like Actors, there are Above the Line who get paid much more, and the Below the Line who make less, but make a good living. Just my observations.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Aside from when they have been paid to do so, when was the last time you heard of pros trying to help out the APA in interviews by saying things like "I think people learning to play pool or even more experienced players should play in the APA. It is a good way to pick up the game while learning, and to meet people with more experience who will give you pointers, and you will have fun in the process". How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro showing up at an APA banquet to meet and greet league players. How about never. When was the last time you heard about a pro wanting to do a free clinic or exhibition at an APA event to help them out. Yup, about as rare as a three dollar bill. Playing in the APA isn't the only way a pro could help out the APA. In fact it isn't even the best way. But pros choose not to help out in any way.

But that isn't even the issue here. The issue is that nobody should have to give any of their legally and honestly earned money to anyone that they don't want to. Nobody out there feels that anybody should be telling them how much money they should be able to earn, or how to spend their money, yet there are plenty of them that for some reason feel they are special enough that they should be able to tell others how much money they should be allowed to earn and how they should have to spend it.

Great post.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

So how do you know this?
You know, if the Pros showed up at The APA and other league events maybe the leagues would be more inclined to give financial support, At the Big APA events over the last few years I have seen Jeanette Lee (and someone who would know mentioned to me what The APA pays her for a few appearances per year) and Mike Massey (McDermott brings him in). They're absolutely right, what have the pros done to help grow the sport. If they'd like some support from the leagues they should probably get out there and sell themselves. It probably wouldn't take much

Corey Deuel was there the whole time this last April for APA Singles. He was at the Meucci booth all day long for like 5 days or more...playing matches against APA passers by.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Poolplaya9]

Corey Deuel was there the whole time this last April for APA Singles. He was at the Meucci booth all day long for like 5 days or more...playing matches against APA passers by.

KMRUNOUT

I all fairness he wasn't there to help out the APA or the game though. He was there to help out Meucci who is paying him for it.

None of which has anything to do with why the typical APA player doesn't want part of their money going to the pros though.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I am certain that I am being misunderstood!

1: I do not agree that it is OK to take profits from leagues and money from its members with out permission! To me that is stealing!

2: could members voluntarily contribute??? I have seen no reason why not???

3: are incentives and prizes that reassemble a great return on their investment possible and highly probable! Yes!

4: do the players have the authority to implement such an out reach program? No!

5:there are benefits associated with the growth and expanded exposure to pool that aid and benefit league growth? Yes, it is undeniable that the color of money and ESPN and YouTube are growing interest in the sport! Florian is a prime example of an internet sensation!

Kd

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[jojopiff]

People love to spend other peoples money. How about instead of forcing people who have zero interest in the pro game to contribute their money. People in favor of this simply start sending them some of your money. No need to be a league player. You guys just start sending them your $.50 or $1 every time you play because I've made the decision that you have enough spare money that you can do that.

Please do not ask how I know how much spare cash you have, that is irrelevant.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

People love to spend other peoples money. How about instead of forcing people who have zero interest in the pro game to contribute their money. People in favor of this simply start sending them some of your money. No need to be a league player. You guys just start sending them your $.50 or $1 every time you play because I've made the decision that you have enough spare money that you can do that.

Please do not ask how I know how much spare cash you have, that is irrelevant.

I see the sarcasm of your post and point!

But, we just had the "make it happen" a week ago and "fans" just spent "$300" to be a signature supporter! "fans" just spent "$50" to view the entire event via streaming. "Fans" spend money on the DVD of their favorite matches!

Not everyone is a fan at the $300 level or a fan at the $50 level or a fan at the $19.99 DVD price point! These 3 ways are the only way fans have of getting money into the hands of the players whose hard work and dedication have entertained them and educated them on the game!

I go to tournaments and support the event in "Hopes" my money trickles down to the players and they "Know" it! When it does not reach them and it is chopped up inequitably is when fans put their money back in their pockets and Pro Players stop attending events or become "OUTSPOKEN" as we currently see regarding payouts at numerous tournaments!

So, the Dollar or two contribution is not dependent on APA or BCA membership as Fans find ways to support the sport! Just sad that you and others can not see the correlations between the leagues "successes and failures" and the growth or decline of pro pool.

On a side note: Pool rooms are disappearing and smoking bans are popping up all over the place. Many of the sales of APA franchises are a direct result of the poor financial conditions of the "POOL ROOMS" across the country and a lack of venues to hold APA & BCA matches leading to a possible "Huge" drop in membership if the leagues are health and the room is on life support and "DIES" then what happens to the league???

Just like they abandon Pro-Pool that launched the leagues and created public "Interest" they have and will turn their backs on the "Pool Rooms" as smoking bans and rising retail rental space hurts business!

KD

 

[jojopiff]

I see the sarcasm of your post and point!

But, we just had the "make it happen" a week ago and "fans" just spent "$300" to be a signature supporter! "fans" just spent "$50" to view the entire event via streaming. "Fans" spend money on the DVD of their favorite matches!

Not everyone is a fan at the $300 level or a fan at the $50 level or a fan at the $19.99 DVD price point! These 3 ways are the only way fans have of getting money into the hands of the players whose hard work and dedication have entertained them and educated them on the game!

I go to tournaments and support the event in "Hopes" my money trickles down to the players and they "Know" it! When it does not reach them and it is chopped up inequitably is when fans put their money back in their pockets and Pro Players stop attending events or become "OUTSPOKEN" as we currently see regarding payouts at numerous tournaments!

So, the Dollar or two contribution is not dependent on APA or BCA membership as Fans find ways to support the sport! Just sad that you and others can not see the correlations between the leagues "successes and failures" and the growth or decline of pro pool.

On a side note: Pool rooms are disappearing and smoking bans are popping up all over the place. Many of the sales of APA franchises are a direct result of the poor financial conditions of the "POOL ROOMS" across the country and a lack of venues to hold APA & BCA matches leading to a possible "Huge" drop in membership if the leagues are health and the room is on life support and "DIES" then what happens to the league???

KD

Yes, it was quite sarcastic as I believe the premise of telling people how to spend their money is beyond asinine. Doesn't matter if you believe the cause is worthwhile or not. No one gets to tell me what's best for me and my money, except me. I get to decide what causes are worth me donating to.

To be clear, if the APA and/or BCA were to implement this into their dues (annual or weekly) and have a governing body to make sure the money is spent well, I'd be all in. However, as currently constructed I'm absolutely against it. And, again, the premise of "APA makes $40 quadrillion dollars and they should give some to the pro's" (I know you didn't say this but was said) is absolutely ridiculous, IMO.

Look, we're talking about a very different type of player than what is going to buy the streams or go to the events. I think many(maybe not many unfortunately, but some) people who regular this site do one of these things you mentioned (I bought MIH and buy most 1p streams and rotation if it's on during the day) but people who have literally no idea that this game is even played at a professional level, much less know there's tournaments, and much, much less know who the heck these pro's are, aren't going to be okay with giving them their money. And, to be honest, if I were them and played this game purely for a night out then I would be against the idea.

What proof do you have that leagues succeeding is going to be beneficial to the growth of professional pool? You're making an assumption and I'm not saying you're incorrect but you're ridiculing people for simply not taking your word and agreeing with you. And, if you think you're going to get people to donate their money based on some guys word from the internet, well, I think you can imagine how that's going to go.