Help on a shot please
- Thread starter poolplaya1
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Flip_dat_Quarta
Banned
In this particular case, the balls will hit the rail at about the same spot. However, with a shot that is more full, this is no longer true.
If you shoot a shot at slower speed with side english, the cue ball will roll off the object ball (similar to a cue ball rolling off a rail). If you put right english on the cue ball, it will roll to the right off the object ball. If you put left english on the cue ball, it will roll to the left off the object ball.
If you don't believe me, setup a shot that's almost straight in with a little angle. Let's say 10 degree angle. Shoot almost straight at the object ball with outside english. The object ball will throw into the pocket and the cue ball will roll away from the pocket.
If you shoot a shot at slower speed with side english, the cue ball will roll off the object ball (similar to a cue ball rolling off a rail). If you put right english on the cue ball, it will roll to the right off the object ball. If you put left english on the cue ball, it will roll to the left off the object ball.
If you don't believe me, setup a shot that's almost straight in with a little angle. Let's say 10 degree angle. Shoot almost straight at the object ball with outside english. The object ball will throw into the pocket and the cue ball will roll away from the pocket.
Found the page:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html
This is how balls behave for me too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdw3cJ4vr8c
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html
This is how balls behave for me too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdw3cJ4vr8c
I will try to be a bit more clear.
right and left on the cue ball does not have any affect on the cue ball after it hits the object ball, only when the cue ball hits a rail does the right and left have an affect.
So to answer your question, low right and low will cause it to hit the same spot assuming you are 1.) Hitting the object ball in the same spot each time and 2.) Hitting it just as low each time 3.) Hitting it just as hard each time (so the same spin is on it).
That is silly to say. Players, especially new ones, can learn lots by reading and learning from others that have put countless hours into learning the physics of the game.
The problem I find most are those seasoned players that think they already know the answers to everything and refuse to accept something that has been proven over and over. Like the fact that right / left spin does not change the cue ball tangent / travel line.
Using right or left, which is highly over used, to make balls is introducing more variables into a shot than needs to be there. Those variables will change based on cloth, humidity, distance between OB and CB, ball cleanliness, etc which is why it should be avoided unless absolutely needed. It is only needed if you actually need to change the direction of the cue ball off the rail OR use throw to put the object ball where you need it to either make the ball or change the tangent line of the cue ball.
I agree :thumbup:
The straighter the shot the more R or L changes the direction.
On an extreme cut the difference is almost 0.
No...Sidespin alone will have no effect on CB path to the rail...UNLESS there is top or bottom spin too. It's the top or bottom spin that curves the CB...not english itself. The problem is that most players will automatically use top or bottom spin when they shoot english...again it's the top or bottom that curves the CB.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
You think it's silly for players to try things for themselves? :scratchhead: How else are you ever going to learn and see for yourself? You can't think your way to a good pool game. I think you'll have a very hard time finding where I ever suggested "don't read and learn from others."
Flip_dat_Quarta
Banned
I can't believe how much misinformation is on here.
100% FACT: The cue ball's path after colliding with an object ball will be different with side spin than without side spin.
The side spin effects will be greatest on fatter cut shots at slow speeds.
In order to understand this, image you have the cue ball and you shoot it toward a rail for a kick shot. You load it up with maximum right English (running English in this case). The cue ball will contact the rail and the spin will pull it to the right producing a wide return angle. The same is true for cue ball contact with an object ball. The cue ball will hit the object ball and roll off in whichever direction the cue ball is spinning. The only difference is the object ball does not bounce the cue ball back toward you as a rail does.
And what happens when you try spinning the cue ball into the rail at a very thin angle? The cue ball's spin won't affect it much. The same is true for thin cut shots. The side English won't have much of an effect.
I hope this helps.
100% FACT: The cue ball's path after colliding with an object ball will be different with side spin than without side spin.
The side spin effects will be greatest on fatter cut shots at slow speeds.
In order to understand this, image you have the cue ball and you shoot it toward a rail for a kick shot. You load it up with maximum right English (running English in this case). The cue ball will contact the rail and the spin will pull it to the right producing a wide return angle. The same is true for cue ball contact with an object ball. The cue ball will hit the object ball and roll off in whichever direction the cue ball is spinning. The only difference is the object ball does not bounce the cue ball back toward you as a rail does.
And what happens when you try spinning the cue ball into the rail at a very thin angle? The cue ball's spin won't affect it much. The same is true for thin cut shots. The side English won't have much of an effect.
I hope this helps.
Holy Linoleum, Batman.
No that is not what I am saying and I think you know that.
I am saying he can spend hours upon hours trying this and still not come to a good conclusion because he doesn't understand all the physics involved and he doesn't have the tools to show him that what he is doing is either right or wrong. He could set it up and THINK he is seeing it hit different on the rail, but not realize he is hitting the object ball differently and throwing it into the same spot of the pocket with side, thus he actually has a totally different tangent line to begin with.
Why spend countless hours at the table trying to gain the basic knowledge that you can obtain by readying/watching, when instead you can spend those same countless hours fine tuning at the table after you learned by asking questions and reading/watching instead?
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Because ultimately you have to actually execute the shot.
Look, I'm a lousy jumper. I used to be an excellent jumper, but I'm a lousy jumper now. It doesn't matter how much I read about it or watch it, I'm not getting any better at it because 99% of the time I'm way more comfortable just kicking at it and I never actually get out there and jump.
So for me, jump shots are not a factor because I can't execute them. If someone can't actually execute a good throw shot, because they can't compensate for squirt, or maybe they just have a horrible stroke and can't put any english on the ball, the shot may as well not exist for him.
That's my only point. You have to get out there and see for yourself. Of course you use the knowledge you pick up along the way, but what counts is what you're actually able to accomplish at the table. My assumption is that people want to get better so as they get more skillful, what they can do expands and gets more consistent and it starts making more sense. It's not a static thing.
Anyhow, that's all. I have nothing against learning, and spend quite a bit of time myself reading through my old books. Always pick up something new.
I agree. I changed my last sentence to reflect my meaning a little better.
So, all the scientific study on this subject is 100% wrong, and you are 100% right with no scientific study, just because??
p.s.- do you even understand why the ball comes off the rail at a different angle with english than without english? I suspect not, since you think the same reasoning applies to a cb hitting an ob.
Straight vertical center w/side is not the same as a tip of draw wit side let's make that very clear in regards to all the fussing. Straight side the tangent isn't changed, add draw or follow it changes, add any side to that and again as Scott and some others basically say you get a "masse" like effect corkscrew action
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You might also want to browse through these links-
http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/TP_3-1.pdf
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/may05.pdf
No, it's not the same. You are making the same mistake a few others made. You keep referencing to making the ob. That is not what the OP is even talking about. To make the ob with english compared to without english, you have to contact the ob at two different places. Doing that will obviously cause different tangent lines. We are talking about hitting the ob in the exact same place with and without english. We aren't concerned in the least in this example about what does or doesn't happen to the ob. We are only concerned about what happens to the cb. Does or does it not follow the same line.
Op asked with 1 tip of draw so YES the English does make a difference.
And I do like french roast coffee, but I prefer a Italian roast.