The ivory threads always explode and bring out the kooks, lol....it's uncanny 
Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake.
- Thread starter ShootingArts
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Every animal taken for anything is alive at some point. Do they feel pain, of course they do. They are even capable of learning. However that doesn't stop us from hunting, killing and eating them.
Poachers kill elephants, we have enough already dead ivory to last for a long time, if not 100's of years. There is zero reason to go after cuemakers, carvers, etc.. that have ivory stock. Or end users that have ivory in their cues, chess sets, canes, netsuke, or whatever. This is the governments end around to another law they didn't bother to enforce originally.
Ivory in China has already increased in price, because the people in the US are to scared to send what they have through the mail. So in order to make up that shortage, they are paying more to the poachers. So you tell me genius, what is going to happen to the elephants now?
All that ivory they destroyed, would have bought them the best. They could have metered it out as needed and controlled the ivory market. Instead they wanted to put a bigger price on the head of the elephant, which they succeeded. So by making ivory that has been legally purchased, legally used, within the laws at the time, illegal, what did they accomplish? Nothing.
As I mentioned many times, people who want it, will get it, at whatever price they are willing to pay. For some people that price may never reach a point where they can't get it.
There is nothing wrong with going after the poachers, in fact its the right thing to do.
JV
Poachers kill elephants, we have enough already dead ivory to last for a long time, if not 100's of years. There is zero reason to go after cuemakers, carvers, etc.. that have ivory stock. Or end users that have ivory in their cues, chess sets, canes, netsuke, or whatever. This is the governments end around to another law they didn't bother to enforce originally.
Ivory in China has already increased in price, because the people in the US are to scared to send what they have through the mail. So in order to make up that shortage, they are paying more to the poachers. So you tell me genius, what is going to happen to the elephants now?
All that ivory they destroyed, would have bought them the best. They could have metered it out as needed and controlled the ivory market. Instead they wanted to put a bigger price on the head of the elephant, which they succeeded. So by making ivory that has been legally purchased, legally used, within the laws at the time, illegal, what did they accomplish? Nothing.
As I mentioned many times, people who want it, will get it, at whatever price they are willing to pay. For some people that price may never reach a point where they can't get it.
There is nothing wrong with going after the poachers, in fact its the right thing to do.
JV
No need for common sense, Joe. It's a nuthouse up in here.
Agreed.
But in Africa, the government officials and even the NGOs are in on the poaching and smuggling. They profit by it. Take lots of bribes.
Burn a mountain of Ivory for the National Geographic cameras in Africa? Sure! Then laugh all the way to the bank.
It's the same across the board. Lots of child prostitution in Africa. Want a child? Go there and seek out one of the social workers that work for one of the NGOs that is supposed to be working to save those children. That's right, the same NGOs that get grants from the UN and solicit lots of donations from US citizens. That's the best way to get yourself a child.
Yeah, distasteful to even mention. But if it works that way with human children, what's an elephant to them? Nothing.
There is a lot of speculation and bickering in this thread.
The one thing I can say for sure is that there is no easy answer to any of this, and the situation with the cue maker probably isn't simple and IMHO is concerning for real trouble. I will be interested to see how it plays out and continue to have best wishes for him.
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You're right. The ivory trade in no way harms elephants.
In 1999 and 2008, there were two massive legal selloffs of preban ivory to China. Care to postulate what happened during those two years with regards to poaching? Yet you and Joe have maintained that if the legal Ivory was controlled and sold off...that massive supply that apparently exists somewhere....that poaching wouldn't be necessary. Yet it boomed those two years. But what do us turnips know. Right?
Get back to me when you can substitute USA for China. By current estimates 95% of the ivory goes to Asia, along with bear gall bladders, tiger dicks, rhino horn, and who knows what else. What US cue makers are using will not save a single solitary elephant.
Lou Figueroa
I usually try to stay out of these debates, but the argument from those trying to eliminate poaching and the illegal trade is that "legal" use legitimatizes the illegal use. It is the same reason that mammoth is also being banned. For what it is worth, I think that when cue-making giants like Ernie (and many others) use ivory in their high end cues, it helps to create a status symbol of having ivory in a cue - and generally to validate ivory as a valuable and prized product in other walks of life.
People can (and often do) disagree with the logic behind this thinking, but it is not like the people (NGOs etc) who are opposing poaching haven't given this a lot of thought.
You are absolutely right Lou!..The miniscule amount of ivory used to decorate cuesticks, is really nothing compared to the hundreds of ways the Asian's make use of it, and they do it by the ton!..Lets hope that Ernie is not being set up as an example, by people who don't seem to have a clue about the reality of the situation!
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Don't make me laugh.
It is a small niche market in the US that it is insignificant compared to the ivory you'd see on open display walking down the street in Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Dongguan, Taipei, Chengdu, Hong Kong, Nanjing, Wuhan, Shenyang, Hangzhou, Chongqing, much less Chinatown in SF or NYC, or what you'd see at any pool event you'd care to name.
Lou Figueroa
please stop following me
around the forum
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(see post 248)
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dom_poppa
Banned
While the US demand for ivory is low compared to Asia but Ginacue got popped for supposed knowledge of its cues going to the problematic region.
Global commerce is the norm and the best cue makers are in America.
Government is stopping this before America will be known as ivory cue capital of the world if it isn't already.
Perhaps we don't want to be known as
Ivory capital of anything.
The value doesn't help either. 85k is a cause for concern.
Global commerce is the norm and the best cue makers are in America.
Government is stopping this before America will be known as ivory cue capital of the world if it isn't already.
Perhaps we don't want to be known as
Ivory capital of anything.
The value doesn't help either. 85k is a cause for concern.
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There's a lot of shit laws being passed in CA that will be turning law abiding citizens into criminals. This situation is a perfect example.
Ask yourself.. what happened to the 15 million dollars those African countries netted.. ask yourself why did the number of poachers caught decrease in that time span, when they in fact had more money to combat poaching?
Why the study that cites the increased poaching and blame it on the 2008 sell off, was the theory of a few tree huggers? Not once did they say it was fueling terrorism, another "theory" that is commonly quoted....
These are the questions any logical person would ask...
There are laws in place, they are hardly ever enforced at the point of the killing. Do you know what would get the poachers attention? Start dropping them, then staking their bodies around to feed the animals and show the others what awaits them if caught.
JV
Why the study that cites the increased poaching and blame it on the 2008 sell off, was the theory of a few tree huggers? Not once did they say it was fueling terrorism, another "theory" that is commonly quoted....
These are the questions any logical person would ask...
There are laws in place, they are hardly ever enforced at the point of the killing. Do you know what would get the poachers attention? Start dropping them, then staking their bodies around to feed the animals and show the others what awaits them if caught.
JV
I played Ernie a few sets of nine ball about 1.5 months ago. We talked about this travesty. What they did here in California regarding legal ivory.
I've owned several of his cues over the years and he used to do work for me on cues that needed refurbishment. Over the years we've had mutual friends. He has always been a stand up guy to me. On top of that I like the man and admire him.
When I talked to him he was thinking of moving to Florida. I am sick about this. Ernie is a guy they should be giving awards to not putting in jail.
We talked about what happened to Gibson Guitars. I am surprised by this because he knew what was going down.
The California politicians should be ashamed of themselves. On top of that I smell a rat.
I've owned several of his cues over the years and he used to do work for me on cues that needed refurbishment. Over the years we've had mutual friends. He has always been a stand up guy to me. On top of that I like the man and admire him.
When I talked to him he was thinking of moving to Florida. I am sick about this. Ernie is a guy they should be giving awards to not putting in jail.
We talked about what happened to Gibson Guitars. I am surprised by this because he knew what was going down.
The California politicians should be ashamed of themselves. On top of that I smell a rat.
Save the Mastodon! No more Mammoth ivory in cues.......
O Snap, missed that by about 10,000 years.
O Snap, missed that by about 10,000 years.
The US is actually the second biggest consumer of ivory goods in the world behind China. This is something you seem to lose sight of. The reason the law is in place in California is that after STUDY and RESEARCH, it was determined that about 90% of the ivory in the state was illegal. Even though people had CITES documentation, it was forged. Seriously, a bunch of you ivory proponents need to open your eyes, and start reading about the issue. Not just picking and choosing your material to suit your arguments. I'd take the results and opinions of world wildlife authorities over those that are ivory cue dealers and fans. You'll use any justification to make yourself feel good.
FACT - when ivory was banned for sale between 1989 and 1999, elephants started recovering. There was always a black market, but simply banning ivory sales worked. Widely known fact. When they decided to do the two massive sells in 1999 and 2008, elephant populations depleted.
So, argue with the facts, guys. During the ban, elephants recovered. During the ban, they went from an appendix 1 species to an appendix 2 species. Now that ivory is "pre ban" legal, the elephant is again an appendix 1 species.
So....Joe, Sean, Lou, SJD, Bava, etc......keep arguing that it isn't a problem. And that banning ivory sales won't work. It clearly did. It's the old expression "don't tell me it can't be done while I'm actually doing it".
I don't need anything to feel better, I'm 100% ok owning the Ivory that I own - no matter what anybody does, it will not bring a DEAD Elephant back to life, so, destroying it WILL NOT HELP ONE BIT!
The biggest threat to elephants in Africa is the Africans themselves and the fact that they currently have the highest birthrate in the world.
Wild elephants do not mix well with civilized urban settings or even farming communities.
The entire state of California could commit suicide and it would do nothing regarding the " Climate " but the politicians voted in the cap and trade.
This law in California making peoples' legal investments illegal in terms of trade is an outrage. The one party rule in Cali is out of control and the politicians keep voting more and more regulations in that require the hiring of an army of bureaucrats.
Poor Ernie when he was just about to retire is gonna be made into an example. It is very sad. He should of moved to Florida.
Yup. when "everyone" owns something then no one owns it and no one takes care of it. I think the most vociferous defenders of the current ivory situation must be the poachers, as it is their business that benefits most from having prices made artificially high by government "protecting" the elephants.
And Twice a Prince was second to Secretariat in '73 at the Belmont, if there is a first there usually is a second, whether it is relevant or not is another matter.
I hope you did not imply that Legislators did their own research, If so where do you buy your rose colored glasses I need a pair! Their votes are bought and paid for by the highest bidder, who likely did their own research to favor their position.
Until the ivory demand is slowed in the far east, nothing we do in the United States will matter.
I hope you did not imply that Legislators did their own research, If so where do you buy your rose colored glasses I need a pair! Their votes are bought and paid for by the highest bidder, who likely did their own research to favor their position.
Until the ivory demand is slowed in the far east, nothing we do in the United States will matter.
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