Corey Deuel's famous draw shot, and other options

[sixpack]

Thank you to everybody for the positive comments. I appreciate it.

I was still hoping to see what others think about which shot option would be the best (most accurate and consistent, with the best chances for a good outcome) for most good players.

Thanks again,
Dave

Thanks for the video Dave. Very interesting.

A few years ago (maybe 7 or so) you posted that you get maximum draw english on the cue ball by not hitting it at the lowest possible point without a miscue, but rather at a point about 2/3 (my number from memory, might or might not be correct) from center to the lowest point because there is less friction on the cueball during the shot to decrease the draw and so the cueball arrives at the object ball with more spin on it.

Thank you for that tip, by the way. I've used it to get some amazing long table hard draw shots. Some similar to the one Corey hit here. It looks like Corey uses that technique on the shot. It's clear his cue is not at the bottom of the cueball.

When you are shooting the shot though it looks like you are striking the ball at the lowest point, instead of the maximum draw point. I'm curious if I didn't see it correctly or if you tried the maximum draw point and what the results might have been.

 

[dr_dave]

Nice video dr dave.

Thanks.

As careful as you are, its 1000% impossible to get the exact ball positions Corey had. The same goes for anyone duplicating an "exact shot" from a video or even an overhead picture.

I agree 100%. In fact, I tweaked the ball positions and few times while I was filming so I could get the best outcome possible with my table conditions and inadequate stroke.

I wonder how much of a difference a 1" variation in position would make the shot?

... a lot, especially depending on ball and cloth conditions.

Certainly Corey also knew all of the options Dr Dave shot. I too wonder what was going through his head.

Obviously, he would know about, and be good at, all of the shot options in my video. Although, I would be surprised if he thinks he made the right choice for the situation, but only Corey can tell us that.

I believe in one of the TAR pre-match interviews, Corey was asked about this shot, and said it was a fluke, and not the way he intended it. I don't have that link or know where it is, and I could very well be remembering it incorrectly.

I thought I remembered hearing something like this also. If anybody knows where this is, please post a link.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised that it was a "fluke," because I don't think any decent pool player would have predicted exactly what happened. The announcers certainly didn't. Apparently, even Corey didn't predict getting that much backspin and having the draw delay as much as it did due to the unique TV-table conditions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[john coloccia]

Thank you to everybody for the positive comments. I appreciate it.

I was still hoping to see what others think about which shot option would be the best (most accurate and consistent, with the best chances for a good outcome) for most good players.

Thanks again,
Dave

Personally, I would have probably played it high-left. I personally don't like being on the right side of the 9&5 because if I end up on the rail, I have no choice but to follow and I'll end up who knows where with. If I end up on the rail and I'm on the left, at least a forced follow probably takes me in the right general direction for the 7.

It's really hard to believe Corey was trying to shoot it like that, though. If I was in stroke and feeling good (which happens from time to time), I may well have tried to draw it back, inside the 7 and past the side pocket. I guess the angle on the video is deceiving because it looks to me to be more straight in than action on the cue ball would indicate, but I think it's a very doable shot with more draw and less speed. Would be interesting if you could do it like that. I don't think it's that hard.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks for the video Dave. Very interesting.

You're welcome ... and thank you. I aim to swerve.

A few years ago (maybe 7 or so) you posted that you get maximum draw english on the cue ball by not hitting it at the lowest possible point without a miscue, but rather at a point about 2/3 (my number from memory, might or might not be correct) from center to the lowest point because there is less friction on the cueball during the shot to decrease the draw and so the cueball arrives at the object ball with more spin on it.

For those interested, this topic is covered in detail on the power draw resource page. Here's the pertinent video demonstration:

NV B.65 - Power draw technique advice from VEPS I

The theoretically ideal contact point for long power draw is at about 80% of the distance to the miscue limit. As shown in Diagram 2 in the following article, this is still a very low hit on the ball:

"How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?" (BD, September, 2011)

I think the main message of the 80% rule is to not push the miscue limit too much.

Thank you for that tip, by the way. I've used it to get some amazing long table hard draw shots. Some similar to the one Corey hit here. It looks like Corey uses that technique on the shot. It's clear his cue is not at the bottom of the cueball.

When you are shooting the shot though it looks like you are striking the ball at the lowest point, instead of the maximum draw point. I'm curious if I didn't see it correctly or if you tried the maximum draw point and what the results might have been.

Honestly, I don't think I hit the CB quite low enough, even though I was aiming very low. My stroke mechanics were not as good as they should be, and I think I dropped my elbow a bit during the stroke into the ball (which raised the tip slightly).

Concerning Corey's shot, I think the unique TV-table conditions he faced were unusually slick and fast.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Neil]

First and foremost. If you're going to analyze other players shots, please be mindful of where you're hitting the cue ball. Your attempt at replicating Corey's shot is a complete failure. Not only are you not hitting the cue ball hard enough, you're not hitting nearly low enough. Corey's shot is hit with max draw while you hit 2/3 max draw. Also his has a slight bit of left, not right like you shot. What does the left do? It kills the extra speed. Had you gotten as much draw like Corey did, with the right you put on you would end up hooked on the 5.

Experiment failure Dave.

First and foremost, if you are going to criticize another person's analysis, you should first know what you are talking about.

Watch the video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVDrZK6VpuU&feature=youtu.be

Now, take note of the reaction of the cb off the third and last rail, and the spin on the cb. Corey obviously hit the shot with low right, not low left like you claim. Also, Corey was NOT trying to do the Z shot you claim he was trying. As others stated already, he was just trying to draw it back past the side pocket, and ended up getting way more draw than he anticipated getting.

 

[john coloccia]

As others stated already, he was just trying to draw it back past the side pocket, and ended up getting way more draw than he anticipated getting.

I missed that. Do we know that's what he was actually trying to do? That would make perfect sense.

 

[Neil]

I missed that. Do we know that's what he was actually trying to do? That would make perfect sense.

Post #42....

 

[BeiberLvr]

That was in the Mosconi Cup, maybe 10 years ago. I agree, more phenomenal. However, he didn't get out that time!

He didn't get out in this rack either. Dogged the 9.

 

[dr_dave]

Watch the video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVDrZK6VpuU&feature=youtu.be

Now, take note of the reaction of the cb off the third and last rail, and the spin on the cb. Corey obviously hit the shot with low right, not low left like you claim. Also, Corey was NOT trying to do the Z shot you claim he was trying. As others stated already, he was just trying to draw it back past the side pocket, and ended up getting way more draw than he anticipated getting.

I agree that Corey hit the shot with a touch of outside, whether he intended to or not; although, it was mostly draw (... a ton of draw).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Spimp13]

I found it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkK0_2KtBi4&t=40m54s

 

[JoeyA]

I like the idea of drawing the cue ball using straight draw. This eliminates having to deal with squerve when using side spin. (and it looks awesome too )

However, an easier stroke (less power) is usually more accurate than the power stroke needed to draw the cue ball.

JoeyA

 

[dr_dave]

I found it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkK0_2KtBi4&t=40m54s

He didn't get out on that rack either. Don't you hate that when you make a brilliant shot and don't execute the easy stuff to follow? Every time I do something like this in league, my teammates tell me I should stop patting myself on the back so much for making a great shot because all of the patting makes the following shots more difficult. To be clear, I'm not saying this is what happened to Corey, and I am certainly not comparing my league highlight-reel shots to Corey's amazing shots.

Regards,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

Post #42....

No sir. Post #42 was an answer to my post, with no new information as to Corey's intent. Neither my post or Dave's post has any "real information" as to Corey's intent.

 

[dr_dave]

I like the idea of drawing the cue ball using straight draw. This eliminates having to deal with squerve when using side spin. (and it looks awesome too )

However, an easier stroke (less power) is usually more accurate than the power stroke needed to draw the cue ball.

Well stated. I hope more people will also chime in concerning shot selection.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Spimp13]

He didn't get out on that rack either. Don't you hate that when you make a brilliant shot and don't execute the easy stuff to follow? Every time I do something like this in league, my teammates tell me I should stop patting myself on the back so much for making a great shot because all of the patting makes the following shots more difficult.

Regards,
Dave

I try not to pat myself on the back too hard for great shots during the middle of a game for just that reason. The shot doesn't mean anything (other than the wow factor) if you don't get out.

Still, I'd have to say this draw shot is one of the strongest draw shots I've seen in a game considering the distance off the rail, the distance to the object ball, and how far the cue ball traveled after contact.

 

[JoeyA]

I found it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkK0_2KtBi4&t=40m54s

WOW, I believe that is Sid Waddell commentating with Jerry Forsythe. I always enjoyed listening to Sid Waddell's colorful commentary. I could never pull off his hyperbole....he was one of the great ones though.

Nice shot by Corey. It looked like Corey was adjusting for a LOT of cue ball squirt on that two ball.

"Heart as big as Moby Dicks!"

JoeyA

 

[dr_dave]

I try not to pat myself on the back too hard for great shots during the middle of a game for just that reason. The shot doesn't mean anything (other than the wow factor) if you don't get out.

Still, I'd have to say this draw shot is one of the strongest draw shots I've seen in a game considering the distance off the rail, the distance to the object ball, and how far the cue ball traveled after contact.

I agree. I think an edited version of the rail-draw-shot you linked should be posted without the scratch that follows. This was done for the Corey draw-shot sequence, only showing the great shots and leaving out the miss. That way people can appreciate the great shots even more (without seeing the careless mistakes to follow).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Dimeball]

Don't some of you think that the shot is / has become more routine over the years? There are at least 20 guys in my home town that make that shot all the time...
I agree it's sweet to make in a tourney on camera, but, nothing jaw dropping or anything...
Now, pull that off at that distance on the big 10, and you've got something... Somebody call Earl... Haha

 

[Eric.]

That was in the Mosconi Cup, maybe 10 years ago. I agree, more phenomenal. However, he didn't get out that time!

No, it wasn't. This was at the US Open, Chesapeake Conv Ctr around 2003 or 2004? I can't remember exactly, but I believe this was from a Tues or Wed match? *Edit-Oops, misread.

* Dave, it looks like your object ball should be another 2 inches (approx) towards the center of the table?

https://youtu.be/qbi16gxjER0?t=23

https://youtu.be/_plsd-1TNNw?t=177


Eric

 

[dr_dave]

No, it wasn't. This was at the US Open, Chesapeake Conv Ctr around 2003 or 2004? I can't remember exactly, but I believe this was from a Tues or Wed match?

* Dave, it looks like your object ball should be another 2 inches (approx) towards the center of the table?

https://youtu.be/qbi16gxjER0?t=23

https://youtu.be/_plsd-1TNNw?t=177

I agree. As I mentioned earlier, I had to tweak the ball positions a little to get a reasonable result with my inadequate stroke on my non-TV-table conditions.

Regards,
Dave