Should Earl be ejected given the "evidence"

Based on the new "Video", should Earl be ejected?


  • Total voters
    292
Johnny, you have ran a few successful businesses in your life.....
...you want promoters to willingly lose money?

Earl has given to this game far more than he has taken....
...the game would've been much poorer without him.
I don't give Earl carte blanche, but I like him 86% of the time.

There have been great talents in every sport that were the bad guys...
...hell, even golf, perhaps the most sedate sport, has its club throwers and swearers.
It was rumored that Tommy Bolt actually threw his caddy into a water hazard once..:eek:

Johnny, you have ran a few successful businesses in your life.....
...you want promoters to willingly lose money?

There are a lot of things I did in my life that I'm not proud of. There are at least two that I am proud of.

I was in the first group (about 12 of us) of Racing Greyhound owners and breeders to give $135 on each pup when reg. That $135 stayed with the Greyhound for his/her adoption.

When I retired at 48, I went to nursing school. In the 13 years I worked as a nurse, I put 11 single mothers through nursing school. All made it through school and passed there boards.

So I do know how to give back. Johnnyt
 
I must admit, RJ, that your favorite game is a little more exciting.
...there's a bit of animosity when a Blue Jay shows up in Texas....

View attachment 433959

Johnny Morra, on the other hand, was greeted with applause when he won the Texas 9-ball.
Pool is a relatively civilized sport.



...or game...:cool:


And after that punching incident in baseball, in front of fans, their GM's, families, and sponsors, not one baseball fan went on a forum and said, "oh no, this is going to be the end of baseball as we know it". But Earl acting, well "earlish" is the end of days for pool according to some ;)
 
If promoters had a set 20 years ago and thrown Earl's ass out of tournaments he acted up in, he would have changed his act quickly. But promoters wanted that extra $ Earl brought in for the gate. Johnnyt

No kidding, and the same goes with ALL sports, and yet Earl has never harmed a flea. He's all bark, no bite, and if anyone plays him and is not aware of this, or how to deal with him or even ignore him by now, they might not be in the right game to begin with. Jayson took no FLAK for his poor behavior, nothing that I saw. But Earls' the bad guy yet again.....because pool needs a bad guy :p
 
Last edited:
And after that punching incident in baseball, in front of fans, their GM's, families, and sponsors, not one baseball fan went on a forum and said, "oh no, this is going to be the end of baseball as we know it". But Earl acting, well "earlish" is the end of days for pool according to some ;)

Maybe because the players and those involved were suspended. You keep bringing up other sports and how bad the athletes are in comparison to Earl. What you keep leaving out is how it's not like they get away without some sort of punishment.

Some face suspensions, fines, and some even spend time in jail/prison. So yes, in comparison, Earl's actions are fairly mild. But his actions alone aren't why people (at least myself) have a problem with him. It's that he's never truly faced any consequences for his actions.
 
No kidding, and the same goes with ALL sports, and yet Earl has never harmed a flea. He's all bark, no bite, and if anyone plays him and is not aware of this, or how to deal with him or even ignore him by know, they might not be in the right game to begin with. Jayson took no FLAK for his poor behavior, nothing that I saw. But Earls' the bad guy yet again.....because pool needs a bad guy :p

Did you watch the match?

Earl sharked Jayson for the majority.
 
No kidding, and the same goes with ALL sports, and yet Earl has never harmed a flea. He's all bark, no bite, and if anyone plays him and is not aware of this, or how to deal with him or even ignore him by know, they might not be in the right game to begin with. Jayson took no FLAK for his poor behavior, nothing that I saw. But Earls' the bad guy yet again.....because pool needs a bad guy :p

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

"Fraud
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.
Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.
Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person's decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent.
Second, the defendant must know that the statement is untrue. A statement of fact that is simply mistaken is not fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must be made with intent to deceive the victim. This is perhaps the easiest element to prove, once falsity and materiality are proved, because most material false statements are designed to mislead.
Third, the false statement must be made with the intent to deprive the victim of some legal right.
Fourth, the victim's reliance on the false statement must be reasonable. Reliance on a patently absurd false statement generally will not give rise to fraud; however, people who are especially gullible, superstitious, or ignorant or who are illiterate may recover damages for fraud if the defendant knew and took advantage of their condition.
Finally, the false statement must cause the victim some injury that leaves her or him in a worse position than she or he was in before the fraud.
A statement of belief is not a statement of fact and thus is not fraudulent. Puffing, or the expression of a glowing opinion by a seller, is likewise not fraudulent. For example, a car dealer may represent that a particular vehicle is "the finest in the lot." Although the statement may not be true, it is not a statement of fact, and a reasonable buyer would not be justified in relying on it.
The relationship between parties can make a difference in determining whether a statement is fraudulent. A misleading statement is more likely to be fraudulent when one party has superior knowledge in a transaction, and knows that the other is relying on that knowledge, than when the two parties possess equal knowledge. For example, if the seller of a car with a bad engine tells the buyer the car is in excellent running condition, a court is more likely to find fraud if the seller is an auto mechanic as opposed to a sales trainee. Misleading statements are most likely to be fraudulent where one party exploits a position of trust and confidence, or a fiduciary relationship. Fiduciary relationships include those between attorneys and clients, physicians and patients, stockbrokers and clients, and the officers and partners of a corporation and its stockholders.
A statement need not be affirmative to be fraudulent. When a person has a duty to speak, silence may be treated as a false statement. This can arise if a party who has knowledge of a fact fails to disclose it to another party who is justified in assuming its nonexistence. For example, if a real estate agent fails to disclose that a home is built on a toxic waste dump, the omission may be regarded as a fraudulent statement. Even if the agent does not know of the dump, the omission may be considered fraudulent. This is constructive fraud, and it is usually inferred when a party is a fiduciary and has a duty to know of, and disclose, particular facts.
Fraud is an independent criminal offense, but it also appears in different contexts as the means used to gain a legal advantage or accomplish a specific crime. For example, it is fraud for a person to make a false statement on a license application in order to engage in the regulated activity. A person who did so would not be convicted of fraud. Rather, fraud would simply describe the method used to break the law or regulation requiring the license.
Fraud resembles theft in that both involve some form of illegal taking, but the two should not be confused. Fraud requires an additional element of False Pretenses created to induce a victim to turn over property, services, or money. Theft, by contrast, requires only the unauthorized taking of another's property with the intent to permanently deprive the other of the property. Because fraud involves more planning than does theft, it is punished more severely."

How is Earl's actions not defined above? Also, how is it possible that he has never "Harmed a flea" when the difference in 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th place money is so substantially different? His actions have/had a real "Economic" effect on his victim.

KD
 
Last edited:
Maybe because the players and those involved were suspended. You keep bringing up other sports and how bad the athletes are in comparison to Earl. What you keep leaving out is how it's not like they get away without some sort of punishment.

Some face suspensions, fines, and some even spend time in jail/prison. So yes, in comparison, Earl's actions are fairly mild. But his actions alone aren't why people (at least myself) have a problem with him. It's that he's never truly faced any consequences for his actions.

Yes, they were suspended for committing a violent act. Earl has never done such a thing. Michael Jordan was the biggest and worst trash talker in NBA history. Nothing was off-limits. If you were a momma's boy, he went after momma, if you were jailed for coke, he took the drug route, whatever he could do, he did it. He never apologized for it, now he's in the HOF, ows a basketball team and net worth is $1 Billion. So, yeah, they all got away with stuff. Jordan would make Earl blush in a trash talking match :wink:
 
How is it a fraud to make the ball one was clearly intending to make but accidentally calling another ball?

Anybody who watches the shot knows this. It is ridiculous that this is receiving so much discussion.

Shaw made a big deal out of a very small verbal mistake on Earl's part and should have let him keep shooting.

Nothing much more to say besides that. This shouldn't be a huge deal.
 
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud


How is Earl's actions not defined above? Also, how is it possible that he has never "Harmed a flea" when the difference in 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th place money is so substantially different? His actions have/had a real "Economic" effect on his victim.

KD

When we have to pull out the legal definitions of criminal laws to make a point about a pool match of whether he called the two or ten, which are very similar in sound as they are in color, then we have a lot more problems than just Earl :rolleyes:

OMG

PS: I noticed you said nary a bad work about Jayson' antics, why is that ? Totally unprofessional according to your pool playing preferences :)
 
When we have to pull out the legal definitions of criminal laws to make a point about a pool match of whether he called the two or ten, which are very similar in sound as they are in color, then we have a lot more problems than just Earl :rolleyes:

OMG

PS: I noticed you said nary a bad work about Jayson' antics, why is that ? Totally unprofessional according to your pool playing preferences :)
He was provoked by the lie!

No lie then no bad behavior!

Yes?

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
I thought your point was that Earl called his shot because it wasn't obvious what he was shooting when he shot the 10 ball.

Given your response here I'm not sure now what your point was.

I didn't see the match but unless it wasn't an obvious shot and Earl slopped a ball in then I don't see the problem. I've watched and played a lot of 14.1 and I haven't seen a match where the player(s) were calling every shot.

Was the opponent Shaw? Was Shaw calling every shot?
 
He was provoked by the lie!

No lie then no bad behavior!

Yes?

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Wrong again. Shaw's bad behavior began when he got up out of his chair. Just wondering, have you even bothered to actually read the rules? If you had, you would know that Shaw was in the wrong the second he stood up.
 
It's too bad we can't change our votes. It's pretty easy to make judgements on Earl, he brings it on in so many ways.

What ever words came out of his mouth, his intent was the 10.

Maybe the lesson here is Earl should spend more time with his mouth shut when playing pool and Jason shouldn't be such a bad sport.
 
Wrong again. Shaw's bad behavior began when he got up out of his chair. Just wondering, have you even bothered to actually read the rules? If you had, you would know that Shaw was in the wrong the second he stood up.

Well, it could be argued because Shaw thought it was now his turn as Earl shot the wrong ball... a player needs to get up when it is his turn.
 
Well, it could be argued because Shaw thought it was now his turn as Earl shot the wrong ball... a player needs to get up when it is his turn.

No, if Shaw is acting as the ref, which he shouldn't even have been doing, it is his job to clarify what ball is the intended ball. In this case, Earl obviously wasn't calling the 2, and was aiming the 10. So, if anything was to be said, it should have been just to clarify just what Earl's intentions were.
 
I DON'T LIKE THE RULE!

But, let the situation have been reversed and Earl would be the first to jump up and call a foul.

Charlie Williams approved the rule and once it is put in place and announced then it has to stay in place for the entire event. To have a foul called early in the match and the rule not enforced near the end is a rule conflict. that is unacceptable in "any" sport.

You used the NFL and other sports as examples and they "Never" start with one set of rules and change them in the middle of a match or even in the middle of a season!

For dragon promotions to say the earlier call and ruling for calling the wrong ball is was a mistake is unprecedented



Kd

it was charlie's circus and the ref's his monkeys, at the least they should have been calling ball and pocket at this stage of the tourney. will this be a lesson learned?

and YES, if earl lied BEYOND a shadow of doubt, he should be held accountable....perhaps banned from participating for a couple of years
 
Physical evidence takes precedence over audio evidence.

The rules need to be modified. I don't care if this is the way straight pool has been played for 300 years.

Words can be misspoken.
Words can be misheard and misinterpreted.

The FACT that EVERYONE in the building paying attention to what Earl was doing before the shot, KNEW that he was shooting the 10 ball.

If this is supposed to be a gentleman's game, then the rule needs to be modified or it will only continue to cause consternation or worse in the future.

And referees don't need to be craning their neck and torso when they are in direct line of a players vision after he is down on the shot. (This is what triggered Earl's faux pas, imo.) I'm surprised Earl didn't give the ref a scolding right then and there. The 10 ball was an obvious shot because NO ONE in the entire room thought anything differently.

The players and the referees deserve a better defined rule, one way or the other. Personally, I think physical evidence takes precedence over a verbal mistake.

I don't blame Jayson for trying to take advantage of the rule primarily because the rule in question was also misused earlier in the match.


JoeyA
 
I think Earl was pissed because he missed the two ball so bad it didn't even move.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Here are the facts:

Earl clearly intended to shoot the ten
Early misspoke and called the two

My opinions:

Jayson jumping on Earl's misstatement to claim a foul was chickenshit
Earl's denials that he misspoke was chickenshit

The problem is the RULE IS WRONG. Here is what the rule should be:

Player does not have to call ball if intention is clear (current rule)
If intention is not clear, player must call ball (current rule)
If a player makes the wrong ball it is a foul (current rule)
If the player calls the wrong ball but his intention is clear, and he shoots the intended ball, the intention controls (new rule)

This change in the rule would eliminate a misspeak or a misidentification of a ball and avoid the chickenshit actions of both Earl and Jason.

The reason we have the current rule is because the problem it is trying to address is that a player's intention may not be clear, especially if he is shooting into a mess of balls. So the idea is that by requiring him to verbally state his intention should avoid any ambiguity. But it doesn't, because there is a parallel ambiguity in the other direction, as in this case, because a player can actually misstate his own intention (by simply making a verbal mental error or by misidentifying a ball). (BTW, this may become an increasing problem with the increasing use of the Cyclop tv balls with their confusing colors.)

In any case, the whole point of the rule is to clearly indentify the shooter's INTENTION. So where the intention is clear (as it was in this case) the intention trumps the call. Where the intention is not clear from the shot, then the call trumps any claimed intention. Simple change in the rule to address both sides of the potential ambiguities.
 
Last edited:
The rules need to be modified. I don't care if this is the way straight pool has been played for 300 years.

Words can be misspoken.
Words can be misheard and misinterpreted.

The FACT that EVERYONE in the building paying attention to what Earl was doing before the shot, KNEW that he was shooting the 10 ball.

If this is supposed to be a gentleman's game, then the rule needs to be modified or it will only continue to cause consternation or worse in the future.

And referees don't need to be craning their neck and torso when they are in direct line of a players vision after he is down on the shot. (This is what triggered Earl's faux pas, imo.) I'm surprised Earl didn't give the ref a scolding right then and there. The 10 ball was an obvious shot because NO ONE in the entire room thought anything differently.

The players and the referees deserve a better defined rule, one way or the other. Personally, I think physical evidence takes precedence over a verbal mistake.

I don't blame Jayson for trying to take advantage of the rule primarily because the rule in question was also misused earlier in the match.


JoeyA

the rule is fine. Notice the part I put in red. Jayson did not clarify the shot when he heard "2 ball". It was obvious to him that Earl misspoke and was intending the ten ball as his shot. Jayson ignored the actual rule and waited like a vulture to pounce on Earl . Jayson blew it, plain and simple.

1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.
For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.
In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call “safety” instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game.
 
Back
Top