Should Earl be ejected given the "evidence"

[pt109]

but, but, but this is billiards, the most gracious and honest endeavor known to mankind... you can't compare that to sports with players making $30M a year, mega sponsors and 50K fans that show up every night, not to mention TV contracts out the wazzo

I must admit, RJ, that your favorite game is a little more exciting.
...there's a bit of animosity when a Blue Jay shows up in Texas....



Johnny Morra, on the other hand, was greeted with applause when he won the Texas 9-ball.
Pool is a relatively civilized sport.



...or game...

 

[Dunnn51]

Earl +(anything)= controversy

Honestly now,.............................
Everyone here sounds like a buncha hens chattering ,.... just to chatter.
Whats life without a little "Earl controversy ??"

The people that hate Earl will bemuse him....
The people that like Earl will valiantly defend him....

Honestly,.... look at the Shaw Facebook video.....

Earl is clearly looking to make either the carom, or to sneak by the 8-ball (I believe that was the ball in the way) for the corner pocket. He spends 30 seconds looking at the bottom right corner , and then asks someone behind him about the carom.

When Earl goes to shoot, he calls the 2 ball (Which he obviously mis-spoke),he meant the 10 ball. Wassa pretty sporty shot too !

I have seen many pro's overlook minor errors such as a mis-called ball when the called ball was never even examined to be in play.
I like JS, but that wassa BS move to call Earl on something so obvious.
JS needs to rebuild his character a little after that one !

 

[westcoast]

This was an unfinished semifinal in a match that was sold via internet to the public. Sorry, but that's completely unacceptable, and yes, it compromises pool's integrity.

So, you think Shaw was correct in challenging the shot when everybody knew Earl's intentions? I would be ashamed and embarrassed to try to take advantage of such a technicality.

 

[HawaiianEye]

According to Dragon Promotions this is an "inning-ending mistake"

for me it is up to the promoter and no one else. Either it is a rule or it is not? there is no in between. So, in my opinion which means nothing, Earl would be packing it in.

What I find more disturbing is the "Lying" to the referee. So what the referee missed the call? When confronted by the referee about what happened it was "untruthful" and that to me is enough for disciplining the player. But, the majority think otherwise. Patriotism over ethics is pretty sad!

KD

Talk about Patriotism, let's inject a little politics in here.

Hillary LIED about her email. Whether she intended to or not...rules are rules, you say. Should she be "ejected" from running for the Presidency?

 

[Icon of Sin]

Too many ifs.

The only thing we know as fact is that Earl called the 2, although he obviously meant the 10. The Ref didnt hear the call. The shot goes to the shooter if he argues that he made the correct call. Jason got robbed and if Earl was human he would have lost sleep on it.

Technically, the right call has been made... technically.

Given all we know as fact, the ref is most at fault. If he does not hear a call or there is any question in the clarity of a called shot, he needs to ask for a confirmation of the intended shot.

Personally, I dont believe in "going to the tape" to review or call or reverse a decision. 90 percent of the time, the players knows what he did and if it was legit or not. I say we keep the video for the soul purpose of reviewing the players character, not the shot or match.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Talk about Patriotism, let's inject a little politics in here.

Let's not.

 

[Tin Man]

I ask the AZ mods to remove this poll. This isn't a poll, it's a witch hunt. OP worded the poll with an extreme bias, reported skewed facts, then posted repeatedly to try to berate people that disagreed with the outcome he wanted. Funny the results STILL didn't work out the way he wanted.

My two cents:

-The call shot rule is a gentleman's rule. I see this as no different than if someone called the 5 ball, got down on the 5, then stood up, changed their mind, and shot another OBVIOUS shot...but failed to change their call. That shouldn't decide who advances and who doesn't.

-What happened earlier in the tournament was earlier in the tournament. I don't have the video of that. Maybe that was a spot in which the call shot rule was more pivotal, such as him shooting into a cluster, making a combo, shooting into a corner with multiple hanging balls, etc. Or maybe it was a bad call by a ref then. Ref's do make bad calls, and if one does we shouldn't have to continue to make bad calls for eternity to be 'consistent'.

-Jayson shouldn't have called a foul on Earl. It's a refereed match. He has no business jumping out of his chair and shouting at Earl.

-I don't have a strong opinion about the ref. I think he saw Earl shoot an obvious ball into an obvious pocket and didn't think anything of it. The only thing I think the ref did wrong was in his explanation of why he was awarding the shot to Earl he mentioned not being able to hear the call. This implied that if Earl DID call the two it would have been an inning ending mistake...but his main point was that everyone knew what the right shot was, and that should have stood on it's own two feet.

-I don't know that Earl 'lied'. Sure, we know he called the 2. And we saw him react. But who knows how he recalled it. He was zoned out, in the heat of battle, and he wanted it to be true so much his brain was probably playing tricks on him. When he said "I didn't call NO balls" I think he believed he was right. But it's anyone's guess. It's 100% that he was incorrect. But it's not 100% that he was deliberately lying. To fine, suspend, or otherwise punish someone you'd better be sure you can prove intent.

-The video of Earl calling the 2 ball was not the official stream. I don't think it is a good idea to start a precedent of using spectators cell phone cameras or other third party recordings to make calls regarding a world championship or fines. That is totally going the wrong direction and opens up a huge can of worms in terms of inconsistency.

-Jayson's forfeiting of the tournament, driving a ball off the table, and getting aggressive with Earl after calling a foul he shouldn't have seemed more out of line. With Earl the shot was obvious and we can't prove intent. With Jayson the intent was absolutely obvious and much more 'ungentlemanly'. If anyone should receive a fine it should be Jayson.

In the end I think this is pool, and tough situations come up. Whatever the call made by the ref I think the players need to accept it, keep moving, and not look back. And the AZ armies can talk about it, but in the end they need to do the same thing.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I ask the AZ mods to remove this poll. This isn't a poll, it's a witch hunt. OP worded the poll with an extreme bias, reported skewed facts, then posted repeatedly to try to berate people that disagreed with the outcome he wanted. Funny the results STILL didn't work out the way he wanted.

You are obviously biased in the matter, I do however agree with you. the players need to take what the ref said. nothing else they can do about it. I dont disagree with Jayson conceding though.

-The call shot rule is a gentleman's rule. I see this as no different than if someone called the 5 ball, got down on the 5, then stood up, changed their mind, and shot another OBVIOUS shot...but failed to change their call. That shouldn't decide who advances and who doesn't.

That couldnt be anymore different. Earl didnt do anythign like that. He called the 2 and then immediately pull the trigger on the 10. Yes, the 10 was obvious, but thats not what he called.

-What happened earlier in the tournament was earlier in the tournament. I don't have the video of that. Maybe that was a spot in which the call shot rule was more pivotal, such as him shooting into a cluster, making a combo, shooting into a corner with multiple hanging balls, etc. Or maybe it was a bad call by a ref then. Ref's do make bad calls, and if one does we shouldn't have to continue to make bad calls for eternity to be 'consistent'.

I agree with what happened earlier was earlier, but even if this was the first shot of this match itis still very pivotal as this is now the semi final. the ref made the right call based on his lack of attention to the shot. He gave the shot to the shooter when the shooter argued that he was right without evidence of his own to say otherwise.

-Jayson shouldn't have called a foul on Earl. It's a refereed match. He has no business jumping out of his chair and shouting at Earl.

The opponent has every right to call a foul and bring it to the discussion of his opponent and the ref .. Also he didnt shout at Earl. He held his hand up so Earl didnt shoot something else and TOLD him that he called the 2 ball. Shouting immediately occurred after that with Earl slamming his cue.

-I don't have a strong opinion about the ref. I think he saw Earl shoot an obvious ball into an obvious pocket and didn't think anything of it. The only thing I think the ref did wrong was in his explanation of why he was awarding the shot to Earl he mentioned not being able to hear the call. This implied that if Earl DID call the two it would have been an inning ending mistake...but his main point was that everyone knew what the right shot was, and that should have stood on it's own two feet.

It was the refs mistake. He should have confirmation of all intended shots. Everyone knowing what Earl was shooting at and him calling it are two different things. He called the 2 ball, shot the 10 ball. Same thing as the BS rules that apply to league. Have to mark the pocket for the 8 ball. If you just call it and shoot i and not mark it then you should expect the other team to call you on it, especially if it is anythhing more then regular weekly play. One of the many reasons I dont shoot leagues anymore.

-I don't know that Earl 'lied'. Sure, we know he called the 2. And we saw him react. But who knows how he recalled it. He was zoned out, in the heat of battle, and he wanted it to be true so much his brain was probably playing tricks on him. When he said "I didn't call NO balls" I think he believed he was right. But it's anyone's guess. It's 100% that he was incorrect. But it's not 100% that he was deliberately lying. To fine, suspend, or otherwise punish someone you'd better be sure you can prove intent.

Agree, no clue whether he actually knew he called the wrong ball or not.

-The video of Earl calling the 2 ball was not the official stream. I don't think it is a good idea to start a precedent of using spectators cell phone cameras or other third party recordings to make calls regarding a world championship or fines. That is totally going the wrong direction and opens up a huge can of worms in terms of inconsistency.

I dont think we should go back to any recordings for pool matches to confirm or reverse a decision. Ref or no ref. I do like that we have the recordings though to watch after the fact as any drama always has some good debates among the mob here.

-Jayson's forfeiting of the tournament, driving a ball off the table, and getting aggressive with Earl after calling a foul he shouldn't have seemed more out of line. With Earl the shot was obvious and we can't prove intent. With Jayson the intent was absolutely obvious and much more 'ungentlemanly'. If anyone should receive a fine it should be Jayson.

I dont blame Jayson for forfeiting, I'm sure he could have handled it better, but the same could be said for how the ref handled the shot which should have ended the inning.

In the end I think this is pool, and tough situations come up. Whatever the call made by the ref I think the players need to accept it, keep moving, and not look back. And the AZ armies can talk about it, but in the end they need to do the same thing.

I agree with everything in this last quote.

 

[shasta777]

Just my 2 cents...

Just my opinion....

This will never be settled... most are laughing at the posts... they think it is all a joke...
Regardless who you like the facts are IF you like Earl you will agree with Earl's side... then again IF you like Jayson... you will take Jayson's side... Fact is the Ref blew it... Ref should have been paying closer attn. to the match....

Given the facts.... it is what it is...

IF Earl was showing un-sportsmanship like some say... then Jayson should have said something to REF... IF ref didn't act upon it then Jayson should have went to the Tournament Dir....

As far as someone in the crowd saying they heard Earl say 2 ball... it does NOT mean a thing... as it is only hear say. I would bet 95% or more of the people wish this whole thing would be dropped.... as it doesn't matter as it is OVER...

Just my 2 cents...

 

[WoodyMPW]

The worst is the long haired guy prancing around for 15 minutes justifying his decision. Make the call and move on. All that build up is what made this scenario so heated.

 

[jtompilot]

Talk about Patriotism, let's inject a little politics in here.

Hillary LIED about her email. Whether she intended to or not...rules are rules, you say. Should she be "ejected" from running for the Presidency?

Not only ejected, but sent straight to prison where she belongs. She has caused so many deaths and never once taken any accountability for her many poor decisions..

Sorry for the rant. Earl called the 2 but ment the 10, sometimes people get confused. I would give Earl a pass on this one

 

[alstl]

I asked previously - why was Earl calling shots? Unless there is some doubt nobody calls shots in 14.1.

Unless the ball slopped in then there shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Big Bad Bern]

So let me ask this question, if Irving Crane was playing Willie Mosconi and Crane called the two and shot the ten at the world championship what do you think would have happened?

Firstly, I believe the ref would have called loss of turn on Crane for calling the improper ball and if he didn’t you can be damn sure Mosconi would have jumped from his chair to bring it to his attention!

The TD made the only ruling he could with the available information, even attempting to utilize video replay. But there is no way a spectator’s footage should be used to over rule the official feed. Could you imagine the NFL over ruling a touchdown based on cell phone footage from a fan! That would be bush league.

The TD’s preening and prancing definitely exacerbated the situation but I can understand his nerves in that situation but in future he should just come out and say upon review this is the call.

Once Jayson shook Earls hand Earl should not have been allowed to continue hitting balls, the TD should have instructed him to breakdown his equipment and leave the playing area. His continuation was a slap in the face to Shaw and Shaw reacted poorly as until that point he was nothing but a gentleman in dealing with a bad situation.

This kind of thing happens in all sports, as a college football review crew was just suspended and barred from working in the playoffs due to their call in the Central Michigan/Oklahoma State game. Jayson and Earl’s situation should be used as a learning experience for the future.

Bern

 

[PoolBum]

I asked previously - why was Earl calling shots? Unless there is some doubt nobody calls shots in 14.1.

Earl called the shot because he had changed his mind about which ball to shoot, not because the shot he eventually shot wasn't obvious.

Earl called just about every shot he shot in the finals, by the way.

 

[Johnnyt]

If promoters had a set 20 years ago and thrown Earl's ass out of tournaments he acted up in, he would have changed his act quickly. But promoters wanted that extra $ Earl brought in for the gate. Johnnyt

 

[pt109]

If promoters had a set 20 years ago and thrown Earl's ass out of tournaments he acted up in, he would have changed his act quickly. But promoters wanted that extra $ Earl brought in for the gate. Johnnyt

Johnny, you have ran a few successful businesses in your life.....
...you want promoters to willingly lose money?

Earl has given to this game far more than he has taken....
...the game would've been much poorer without him.
I don't give Earl carte blanche, but I like him 86% of the time.

There have been great talents in every sport that were the bad guys...
...hell, even golf, perhaps the most sedate sport, has its club throwers and swearers.
It was rumored that Tommy Bolt actually threw his caddy into a water hazard once..

 

[alstl]

Earl called the shot because he had changed his mind about which ball to shoot, not because the shot he eventually shot wasn't obvious.

Earl called just about every shot he shot in the finals, by the way.

Did Mika call every shot? If not did Earl call a foul on him claiming he shot the wrong ball?

Nothing against Shaw and I didn't see the match but if Shaw made an issue of this he was sharking Earl plain and simple.

 

[PoolBum]

Did Mika call every shot? If not did Earl call a foul on him claiming he shot the wrong ball?

Nothing against Shaw and I didn't see the match but if Shaw made an issue of this he was sharking Earl plain and simple.

I thought your point was that Earl called his shot because it wasn't obvious what he was shooting when he shot the 10 ball.

Given your response here I'm not sure now what your point was.

 

[Danimal]

It's hard for me to take sides because I'm friendly with both players.

The person that should have been responsible for mitigating the situation was the referee. However, everyone must understand that this was not an official ref presiding over the match, but rather an unofficial attendant monitoring the match in loco parentis. He had little authority aside from racking the balls in Earl's absence, and for cleaning the cueball when requested. He was even brushed off by Jayson early on in the match due to his inadequacy in getting the balls tight. A true official would not stand for that.

The TD John Leyman, like a police officer summoned to the scene following a car accident and having to get in the middle of two disgruntled parties, did the best job he could given the circumstantial evidence at the time. He made the call nobody else would want to make and the match, for better or for worse, should have proceeded from there.

The cell phone video that surfaced hours after the fact was supplemental to the story. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because audiences want to hear what they want to hear and it cannot be deemed as definitive. If anyone can claim with the utmost surety that Earl indubitably said "Two," please also provide us all with a complete and unerring transcript of everything else said over the course of the video. A garbled unprofessional video cannot be upheld as the deciding call.

Better at the time of review would be if the table microphone from the recording could have been isolated and inspected, although as noted above the ultimate call was made and everyone should have moved from there.

What needs to be taken from this situation is that going forward in future "World" events the promoter must employ an official and undisputed referee to provide authority and to preside over the match, even if only for the critical semifinal and final rounds. Someone that is knowledgeable regarding all the rules, calls the fouls and the balls one by one, that wears gloves to handle the balls, that cleans the balls as requested (especially from all that gunky "premium" chalk), and is able to rack the balls solidly and efficiently. They would also have to be strong enough to stand up to the intimidation and chicanery of the players. This would go a lot further to codify this as a professional and polished event.

It is an oversight for the organizers to lay back and feel that the players are mature and gentlemanly enough to run this show all alone out there. With the continued and commonplace dregs that have become the accepted state of the professional game, players have been tasked with policing themselves and it has become something of the Wild West.

Players will go hard at all costs, and need an authority figure to restore the order and respect that is lacking.

 

[Neil]

So let me ask this question, if Irving Crane was playing Willie Mosconi and Crane called the two and shot the ten at the world championship what do you think would have happened?

Firstly, I believe the ref would have called loss of turn on Crane for calling the improper ball and if he didn’t you can be damn sure Mosconi would have jumped from his chair to bring it to his attention!

The TD made the only ruling he could with the available information, even attempting to utilize video replay. But there is no way a spectator’s footage should be used to over rule the official feed. Could you imagine the NFL over ruling a touchdown based on cell phone footage from a fan! That would be bush league.

The TD’s preening and prancing definitely exacerbated the situation but I can understand his nerves in that situation but in future he should just come out and say upon review this is the call.

Once Jayson shook Earls hand Earl should not have been allowed to continue hitting balls, the TD should have instructed him to breakdown his equipment and leave the playing area. His continuation was a slap in the face to Shaw and Shaw reacted poorly as until that point he was nothing but a gentleman in dealing with a bad situation.

This kind of thing happens in all sports, as a college football review crew was just suspended and barred from working in the playoffs due to their call in the Central Michigan/Oklahoma State game. Jayson and Earl’s situation should be used as a learning experience for the future.

Bern

How much are those selective lenses you watched the video through?