Quality Instructors

[GoldCrown]

Sorry Mike, but that's not good enough. It still allows for comparisons to be made that have no meaning. Changing the color or the font or making it lighter will not account for my 20 years of pro level competition.

If I didn't catch this misrepresentation, then everyone would have thought that I can't play. That is not acceptable. I should not have to be the one to explain why I was being falsely represented.

First, I have no idea how you rate from event to event when there are so many different types of events played on different levels. I seriously question your credentials to do that. Second, if you insist on having a ranking system, you're better off leaving out all the names of players who haven't met your minimum requirement.

And by all means, I would appreciate it if you take my name off your list because I do not want to be misrepresented like this again.

I'm guessing from the latest studies that there are 35,000,000 million people who play pool once in a while. For the ten or 100 guys here that have all these criteria for instructors, I applaud you. For you and who you seek instruction from I certainly can't or won't argue with you. You are absolutely correct. I certainly am not qualified to teach anyone high level one pocket or banks, but high level straight pool or 8 ball yes, so I agree with your assessment. But I can probably help you tweak your set up and stroke so that you hit the cue ball a wee bit more consistently, and play your best game a hair better.

As an instructor, I will focus my attention on the 34,999,900 people that I can help learn to play better pool, learn to love our sport and most importantly support our sport by playing in rooms, buying products and spreading the good word about how much fun pool is. I like my odds here.

And I'm totally in support of Fran's comments! Fran has probably forgotten things about pool that most people haven't learned yet. Wisconsin State Champion Jerry Briesath and Scott Lee a 0! David Sapolis not mentioned! Where is Tony Robles? Was Mark Wilson on the list? Dr. Dave? Bob Jewett? All of these guys are awesome instructors, players and people who every day are quietly doing wonderful things for our sport. We need more of you. Thank you for what you are doing! I apologize to anyone who I left out.

I want our sport to thrive and grow, not wither and die, and I'm doing my best to educate and promote pool. I'm not sitting in a sniper's nest taking shots at people who are trying their best to grow our sport.

My call to action here is if you are unhappy with the state of pool instruction, please don't put down those of us trying, do something to make it better. Write a book, make a video, teach kids how to play. The days of taking your secrets to the grave are over!

Now please go out and do something positive for pool today! Thank you.

tap ... tap ... tap



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The answer to the poll is obviously "yes" because I'm very unlikely to want to take a lesson (about pool) from an APA 3.

However, the real requirement is that the instructor be able to get you to play better. As an off-the-wall example, Willie Hoppe's father was not a great player but he taught Willie to play like a champion. His technique, so the story goes, is that he beat him when he missed. Willie learned not to miss. It was a different time and culture. I can testify that my mechanical drawing teacher used a paddle effectively with trouble makers and his students probably learned more because of it.

A gentler example might be a former shortstop who has declined physically to the point where he can't give good demos -- too many miscues from the shakes -- but is an excellent observer of both great players and students and is also an excellent explainer. He might be able to help significantly with lots of students except those who can only learn by example.

Another aspect is the parts of pool that are strategy and knowledge. Those parts can be transferred without the instructor hitting a ball. And there are some very strong players who are as dumb as doorknobs when it come to some non-standard shots.

Finally, when I give a lesson I try to shoot as little as possible. It is the student who should be shooting. Sometimes I have to resort to shooting an example shot, but I'd rather get the student to do the technique just by explanation.

My thoughts on this thread. I think we have something very positive here. The instructors that replied here give us chance to learn about them. Their passion for teaching. What they are trying to achieve. Their dedication. If anyone here is interested in lessons we just
got a feel for what the instructors are about. Talk to an instructor ...tell them what you what to accomplish and go from there. Want to learn basics, advanced, a certain game, whatever. Believe it or not these instructors care. They are not fly by nighters or scrap iron dealers. Their name is on the lesson. A thread like this gives the instructors a lot of exposure. I really hope they benefit from it.. By reputation their work is generally.....Off The Charts.

 

[ronscuba]

The point where the tip strikes the cue ball is 1mm. It is the deviation from the spot players try to hit and where they actually hit which determines someone's skill level to a large degree. A bigger table magnifies this.

That is why snooker requires extreme precision and they are so strict about fundamentals. Pool is more lax because of shorter shots and more forgiving pockets but players will become better if their stroke becomes more consistent.

Agreed. But some will accept their current stroke as good enough because they still make balls on their pool halls 4.75"-5" pockets, and prefer to spend more time on other aspects of the game.

The stroke is never perfect and we can strive to stroke better, but do we have weaker aspects in our game that need more attention ? Strategy, defense, position, pattern recognition, playing under pressure, etc.. So for these types, maybe they want an instructor that has experience performing at higher levels in competition to help address these specific issues.

 

[BRussell]

Maybe that is because a good pool stroke does not require power, margin for error to pocket balls is fairly forgiving, plus the pool stroke is much simpler and smaller in range of movement compared to other sports. Basically, you want stroke straight, hitting a 12mm-13mm spot, with an 8"-12" stroke.

I think because of the above, you can have varying styles of stroke, grip, stance, yet still be successful.

So big-time human performance researchers would all be devoting millions of dollars to studying pool fundamentals, but pool is just too easy? Come on. There's no money it, that's why no one studies it. Pool requires as much precision as other sports.

 

[ronscuba]

So big-time human performance researchers would all be devoting millions of dollars to studying pool fundamentals, but pool is just too easy? Come on. There's no money it, that's why no one studies it. Pool requires as much precision as other sports.

Well, yeah, no money in pool is a factor.

But I definitely disagree that stroking a pool cue straight enough to pocket a ball on a 9 ft table has the same difficulty level as hitting a 90 mph baseball or a golf ball 250 yards into the fairway. Compare the physical actions to each other. Pool stroke does not need power and it is only 8"-12" long.

 

[BRussell]

Well, yeah, no money in pool is a factor.

But I definitely disagree that stroking a pool cue straight enough to pocket a ball on a 9 ft table has the same difficulty level as hitting a 90 mph baseball or a golf ball 250 yards into the fairway. Compare the physical actions to each other. Pool stroke does not need power and it is only 8"-12" long.

I think they're just different, not harder or easier, and not requiring more or less attention to fundamentals. Yes there's more power in hitting a baseball or a golf ball off the tee. But there's also obviously far more precision required in pool.

And think about how much has gone into just how to HOLD a putter, despite the fact that putting doesn't usually require any more body movement than a pool stroke. Not to mention that in pool you have to 1. hit a ball into ANOTHER ball that goes in a hole, and 2. you have to control where the cueball goes, with spin and speed independent of that required to make the shot.

I know you obviously know this and I don't mean to jump on this so hard, but I think there's an irrational "I don't need no stinkin' fundamentals" attitude among many pool players. I don't see any reason pool's fundamentals are less important than any other sport's fundamentals. They're all different, they all require different amounts of power and finesse, but they all have techniques that can result in better or worse execution.

 

[ps611846]

Well, yeah, no money in pool is a factor.

But I definitely disagree that stroking a pool cue straight enough to pocket a ball on a 9 ft table has the same difficulty level as hitting a 90 mph baseball or a golf ball 250 yards into the fairway. Compare the physical actions to each other. Pool stroke does not need power and it is only 8"-12" long.

What about a 9 ft table with 4 inch pockets ?

 

[SJDinPHX]

...The answer to the poll is obviously "yes" because I'm very unlikely to want to take a lesson (about pool) from an APA 3.

However, the real requirement is that the instructor be able to get you to play better. As an off-the-wall example, Willie Hoppe's father was not a great player but he taught Willie to play like a champion. His technique, so the story goes, is that he beat him when he missed. Willie learned not to miss. It was a different time and culture. I can testify that my mechanical drawing teacher used a paddle effectively with trouble makers and his students probably learned more because of it.

A gentler example might be a former shortstop who has declined physically to the point where he can't give good demos -- too many miscues from the shakes -- but is an excellent observer of both great players and students and is also an excellent explainer. He might be able to help significantly with lots of students except those who can only learn by example.

Another aspect is the parts of pool that are strategy and knowledge. Those parts can be transferred without the instructor hitting a ball. And there are some very strong players who are as dumb as doorknobs when it come to some non-standard shots.

Finally, when I give a lesson I try to shoot as little as possible. It is the student who should be shooting. Sometimes I have to resort to shooting an example shot, but I'd rather get the student to do the technique just by explanation.

It is very refreshing to see a response by someone who actually knows what they're talking about!..There are so many respondents in this thread, who don't even understand the question, yet will try to give a sensible answer!..I've noticed the same can be said about almost any subject approached on these forums!..Some people will waste an entire page or two, giving 'dead wrong' opinions!

PS..Beginners and 'newbies' (which it appears now dominate this forum)..would save the rest of us a lot of time, if they would simply learn to say, "I don't have a clue!".

PPS..Example;..Hitting 'fairways and fastballs', just may not have a whole lot to do with playing pool!..(except maybe for the balls being round )

 

[measureman]

Jack Nicklaus once said "Why should I listen to a coach that can't break 80?"
Or something close to that.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Jack Nicklaus once said "Why should I listen to a coach that can't break 80?"
Or something close to that.

..Now you're talking!..:thumbup:

 

[KRJ]

I think they're just different, not harder or easier, and not requiring more or less attention to fundamentals. Yes there's more power in hitting a baseball or a golf ball off the tee. But there's also obviously far more precision required in pool.

And think about how much has gone into just how to HOLD a putter, despite the fact that putting doesn't usually require any more body movement than a pool stroke. Not to mention that in pool you have to 1. hit a ball into ANOTHER ball that goes in a hole, and 2. you have to control where the cueball goes, with spin and speed independent of that required to make the shot.

I know you obviously know this and I don't mean to jump on this so hard, but I think there's an irrational "I don't need no stinkin' fundamentals" attitude among many pool players. I don't see any reason pool's fundamentals are less important than any other sport's fundamentals. They're all different, they all require different amounts of power and finesse, but they all have techniques that can result in better or worse execution.

Sorry Doc, but Sports Illustrated listed the most difficult sports to play, and hitting a major league pitcher was the toughest. The ball is moving from 90mph to 105mph from 60 feet away, and the ball is moving, left, right, up, down, and you only have a fraction of a second to make a decision, even then, the human eye doesn't not even see the ball the last 5 feet of so, but you still have hit what you can't see. Just hope the ball is in the spot you thought it was.

There is a reason they have $300M contracts, cause there are only a handful of guys on the planet that can do what they do. Heck, fail 70% of the time puts you in consideration for the Hall of Fame.

No other sport I can think of, when you are on offense, you don't get the ball. Think about that. You're on offense, the other team has the ball, not your team. And then they have 9 fielders and a cannon throwing mutant trying to stop you. That's a tough nut to crack right there Talk about being behind the 8 ball

With that being said, Pool is still difficult, just not on the same level as many other sports. But we play it cause we love it !!!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Sorry Doc, but Sports Illustrated listed the most difficult sports to play, and hitting a major league pitcher was the toughest. The ball is moving from 90mph to 105mph from 60 feet away, and the ball is moving, left, right, up, down, and you only have a fraction of a second to make a decision, even then, the human eye doesn't not even see the ball the last 5 feet of so, but you still have hit what you can't see. Just hope the ball is in the spot you thought it was.

There is a reason they have $300M contracts, cause there are only a handful of guys on the planet that can do what they do. Heck, fail 70% of the time puts you in consideration for the Hall of Fame.

No other sport I can think of, when you are on offense, you don't get the ball. Think about that. You're on offense, the other team has the ball, not your team. And then they have 9 fielders and a cannon throwing mutant trying to stop you. That's a tough nut to crack right there Talk about being behind the 8 ball

RJ, This is a fun subject to debate!..However, I'm sure you've noticed, 'Sports Illustrated' devotes about 1/2 page every ten years, to pool!..The main reason MLB, NFL, (and other major sports) command such huge salaries, is because of their immense popularity, and their large dollar TV sponsorship!..It is not a matter of how difficult it is (or isn't) for a player to become highly skilled at their game!

Most of us played baseball/football, from our earliest years, right on up through HS and college!..Sheer overwhelming numbers, will always push learning a demanding skill like pool, to the back of the bus!..That is not likely to ever change!..All top pool players, know what it took for them to become highly skilled at the game!..Obviously, the game of pool will never be able to compete with mainstream sports, on a 'popularity' level..But I will always insist, a far lower percentage of poolplayers, will become highly proficient at it, than any physically demanding sport!..

PS..I could quite easily hit a 'sinking curve ball', when I was only 9 yrs. old!

 

[KRJ]

But I will always insist, a far lower percentage of poolplayers, will become highly proficient at it, than any physically demanding sport!..

PS..I could quite easily hit a 'sinking curve ball', when I was only 9 yrs. old!

Yeah, and my son could sink a pool ball at 9 years old, big whoop. Could you hit a sinking curve at the age of 21. nope. There are only 600 players in MLB, the best league in the world, out of a population of 6.5 billion. Sorry, not even close in terms of physical talents.

If baseball was easy, they'd be lining up around the block to cash in. Heck, playing QB in the NFL probably is one of the toughest things to do, the vision, talent, smarts , etc while 300 pound angry guys are trying to turn you inside out, yeah, that's a tough one, that not many folks can play, even folks that played on college can't pick it up enough to play well in the NFL. Heck, Jay Cutler is still trying to find his way

 

[SJDinPHX]

Yeah, and my son could sink a pool ball at 9 years old, big whoop. Could you hit a sinking curve at the age of 21. nope. There are only 600 players in MLB, the best league in the world, out of a population of 6.5 billion. Sorry, not even close in terms of physical talents.

If baseball was easy, they'd be lining up around the block to cash in. Heck, playing QB in the NFL probably is one of the toughest things to do, the vision, talent, smarts , etc while 300 pound angry guys are trying to turn you inside out, yeah, that's a tough one, that not many folks can play, even folks that played on college can't pick it up enough to play well in the NFL. Heck, Jay Cutler is still trying to find his way

Boy, I have to question your comprehension skills big fella!.. I said exactly the same things you did, only maybe in a different way. Everything about sports is numbers and $$$$!..Did you not understand what I said in this paragraph jn my post?...

"Most of us played baseball/football, from our earliest years, right on up through HS and college!..Sheer overwhelming numbers, will always push learning a demanding skill like pool, to the back of the bus!..That is not likely to ever change!..Only top pool players, really know what it took for them to become highly skilled at the game!..Obviously, the game of pool will never be able to compete with mainstream sports, on a 'popularity' level..But I will always insist, a far lower percentage of pool players, will become highly proficient at it, than any physically demanding sport!"

Where did I say it was "easy" to become a pro quarterback?..Do you think I don't realize how few people, out of millions, make it to the pro level of any sport, thereby commanding the big bucks?..However, not everyone has the size, strength and agility to make it in pro sports, whereas it is not a prerequisite in pool!..I was only trying to point out, that it is just as hard to succeed as a professional in pool, but it goes unnoticed because the numbers are so miniscule, compared to other sports!

PS..And no, I could probably not hit a curve ball as well at 21..But, due to spending most of my youth in a pool room, I could easily beat your 9 year old (at pool) by then! :thumbup:

 

[Elmo]

This chart is nonsense. On that we agree. We actually have no rating for most of those people, and I would not have posted that.

Below is what we have for Stan Shuffett. He only has about 100 games, and for those 100 games he is playing at 746 speed--about top 50 in the US. The chart above doesn't show 746, his actual performance, because there is a default "starter rating" that is holding it down. Bottom line is we need more information on Stan before we would say he has a rating. Another hundred games like this hundred, and we'd say he plays 746 speed. Right now anything you find for him would just say "preliminary."

Mike Page, Stan is a great example of how the ratings aren't accurate until they are established. Thanks for sharing that information. I agree that it would be impossible to say Stan played at that level because that very well may have been the best tournament of his life and that is all of the data you have. So as you said, until he gets another 100 games, it is a preliminary rating. When I use to live in Ohio, I use to drive down to Kentucky and watch Stan play at the Rack and Cue. Personally, I know that Stan is nowhere near the 746 speed either. Players like Shannon Murphy would give him a sizable spot for the cash and he wouldn't like the game. I know for a fact that a "B+" player name Joe Powell beat him gambling at 9-ball not long ago. I guess that's why you can't judge a player by one tournament and you would need at least 200 games before they are established. Everyone has good and bad days. You need lots of information to form a true opinion. Great point!!!

 

[one stroke]

RJ, This is a fun subject to debate!..However, I'm sure you've noticed, 'Sports Illustrated' devotes about 1/2 page every ten years, to pool!..The main reason MLB, NFL, (and other major sports) command such huge salaries, is because of their immense popularity, and their large dollar TV sponsorship!..It is not a matter of how difficult it is (or isn't) for a player to become highly skilled at their game!

Most of us played baseball/football, from our earliest years, right on up through HS and college!..Sheer overwhelming numbers, will always push learning a demanding skill like pool, to the back of the bus!..That is not likely to ever change!..All top pool players, know what it took for them to become highly skilled at the game!..Obviously, the game of pool will never be able to compete with mainstream sports, on a 'popularity' level..But I will always insist, a far lower percentage of poolplayers, will become highly proficient at it, than any physically demanding sport!..

PS..I could quite easily hit a 'sinking curve ball', when I was only 9 yrs. old!

Put the bottle down and slowly back away , the fact is many more young players reach a higher level in pool than they could ever dream of in other sports it's not even worth a argument ,

1

 

[Neil]

Put the bottle down and slowly back away , the fact is many more young players reach a higher level in pool than they could ever dream of in other sports it's not even worth a argument ,

1

Sorry, but your example carries no weight. The "other" sports are limited due to their organizations on how many will be able to play it. Plus, for many of the sports, there isn't really anywhere to play it on a regular basis.

Golf is the exception to the above. And, in golf, there are a lot more high level golfers than there are high level pool players.

 

[KRJ]

PS..And no, I could probably not hit a curve ball as well at 21..But, due to spending most of my youth in a pool room, I could easily beat your 9 year old (at pool) by then! :thumbup:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you would squeak out a win against him in pool :grin:

However, in baseball and karate, he'd clean your clock

 

[one stroke]

Sorry, but your example carries no weight. The "other" sports are limited due to their organizations on how many will be able to play it. Plus, for many of the sports, there isn't really anywhere to play it on a regular basis.

Golf is the exception to the above. And, in golf, there are a lot more high level golfers than there are high level pool players.

If you have a kid and your goal is to make him a pool player or any of the major sports and you think your chances are better with one of them rather than pool your sadly mistaking. Your up against millions not thousands

1

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Two things come to mind whenever I think of instructors, be it pool, institutes of higher learning, or sports.
Why wasn't my college economics professor a millionaire?
And, when Payne Stewart started high school Bill Stewart, his dad, went to the golf coach and told him that whatever he did, he was not to mess with Payne's golf swing.

 

[mvp]

Should master level instructors at least play at a master level? If they got the knowledge, the perfect stroke, I see no reason why they shouldn't be near a bottom level pro. Excluding any health, physical handicaps, old age etc. but play that level at least for a period of time sometime in their life.

Seems to me, what I'm learning is to have about 5 instructors that build the foundation for a complete player! Of course one would advance to the next after mastering the past instructor. And if you think about this....... This is what everyone does anyway! We started off playing a buddy, learned everything from him till he never wins. Then we find a better buddy and repeat, before you relieze it you're traveling to play better players!! At my age now I could probably benefit from an hr of stroke training, but sure could use a months worth of playing training!