One pocket vs. 14.1

[SJDinPHX]

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.....If we are talking about being an "artist", I'd rank 14.1 above one-pocket.....Nobody ever said it took any more brains to play anything, other than a one-pocket player. Efren is a genius at most every pool game...it isn't only one-pocket. I'm sure Mosconi could have been the King Of One Pocket, if he would have focused on it. How many one-pocket champions have run a few hundred balls of 14.1? How many of them have consistently ran 7 and 8-pack packages of 9 and 10-ball?

MrEye, Allow me a little rant here!..Your extreme dislike for one pocket often causes you to make some very erroneous statements! ..Efren has always been a dominant force in pool, however is he is not a "genius" at 1P!..It is only his superior ability at pool in general, and the "Efren fear factor" that has allowed him to be so successful at tournament 1P!..There are (or were) at least a half dozen top 1P players, who would be the favorite over him, in a lengthy cash race!

The same is true for Mosconi, Strickland, Archer, and many other top players!..Early in their careers, they were discouraged with 1P, because they had trouble beating even a good B+ 1P player..Henceforth, like you, they never cared to learn the game!..It is by far the most cerebral of all pool games, and requires total commitment to excel at!..Had they concentrated on learning it well, they may not have enjoyed the success they had at their other games of choice!

No other game, requires the combination of pool skills, that 1P does! These include banking, pinpoint speed control and the ability to pocket tough shots, because thats usually all you ever get, up against a good 1P player!..Also, a very high degree of inventiveness and imagination are absolute necessities!..It may seem a little slow at times, because finding the 'right' shot, is a lot tougher than how to play shape, on the next highest ball ! (or in 14.1, any ball)

With all the success you say you've had with other games, you may feel just like the other good players I mentioned!..You didn't want to devote the time to learning it well!..And now that it has risen to the top in hi-$$$ gambling circles, among the worlds best players, you are having trouble admitting that you wish you had!

PS..To say that 14.1 is a 'better' game than 1P, is simply not true!..If it were, 1P would have died out 60 yrs. ago, like all forms of straight pool did!.................... I kinda like the way Jerry put it over in the '1P is so Slow' thread!---->

Really, One Pocket is too slow. I find it interesting that of all the pool games, it's the one that has stood the test of time. One Pocket is virtually the only pool game where the big action occurs nowadays!. It's the only pool game where you can play it well when your young and when you are old..It's the only pool game where you only need one cue to play with. It is the only game where thinking out plays shooting, the only game, except for bank pool, where banking skills are an absolute necessity. And lastly, (my favorite) where nine ball players get out of stroke.

__________________

 

[bbb]

great post dick....:thumbup:
i tried to send you a greenie but was told i have to spread it around before i send it to you
there is no question to play 14.1 is an extremely difficult game
but as dick said
the skills involved for top level play one pocket are beyond the skils of 14.1/9 ball
meaning you need to be good/ great at more things than the skills necessary for those games
this is not the best analogy
but the winner of the decathlon may not be the worlds best in any of the 10 events
but he is close to the best in 10 events
and the winner has the best "total package"
jmho
icbw

 

[King T]

Go post, but...,

Efren has always been a dominant force in pool, however is he is not a "genius" at 1P!..It is only his superior ability at pool in general, and the "Efren fear factor" that has allowed him to be so successful at tournament 1P!..There are (or were) at least a half dozen top 1P players, who would be the favorite over him, in a lengthy cash race!
__________________

I Love One Pocket and Efren so I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.
Efren is not a great One Pocket player because he's feared, he's a great One Pocket player because he does he is Great at every required aspect of the game.

There were more creative player, Cliff, Frost, Ronnie Allen, there were better bankers, Bugs, Cannon Ball, Freddie B, but no one would have been the favorite over Efren in his prime and theirs.

And PLEASE don't call Efren a tournament player!! He beat every American player to death when he came to this country, only Buddy got buy him here in Houston and I don't recall Buddy chasing him around to play afterwards.

Efren is the King, the Best there ever was or will be in Pool!

 

[lfigueroa]

MrEye, Allow me a little rant here!..Your extreme dislike for one pocket often causes you to make some very erroneous statements! ..Efren has always been a dominant force in pool, however is he is not a "genius" at 1P!..It is only his superior ability at pool in general, and the "Efren fear factor" that has allowed him to be so successful at tournament 1P!..There are (or were) at least a half dozen top 1P players, who would be the favorite over him, in a lengthy cash race!

The same is true for Mosconi, Strickland, Archer, and many other top players!..Early in their careers, they were discouraged with 1P, because they had trouble beating even a good B+ 1P player..Henceforth, like you, they never cared to learn the game!..It is by far the most cerebral of all pool games, and requires total commitment to excel at!..Had they concentrated on learning it well, they may not have enjoyed the success they had at their other games of choice!

No other game, requires the combination of pool skills, that 1P does! These include banking, pinpoint speed control and the ability to pocket tough shots, because thats usually all you ever get, up against a good 1P player!..Also, a very high degree of inventiveness and imagination are absolute necessities!..It may seem a little slow at times, because finding the 'right' shot, is a lot tougher than how to play shape, on the next highest ball ! (or in 14.1, any ball)

With all the success you say you've had with other games, you may feel just like the other good players I mentioned!..You didn't want to devote the time to learning it well!..And now that it has risen to the top in hi-$$$ gambling circles, among the worlds best players, you are having trouble admitting that you wish you had!

PS..To say that 14.1 is a 'better' game than 1P, is simply not true!..If it were, 1P would have died out 60 yrs. ago, like all forms of straight pool did!.................... I kinda like the way Jerry put it over in the '1P is so Slow' thread!---->




__________________

Blap!

Wrong on several counts.

First off, Efren showed the rest of the world how to play 1pocket at an entirely new level. He brought straight rail, 3C, and rotation skills, that no one over here had ever seen before, and incorporated them into 1pocket.

Efren is and always be "The Man" when it comes to revolutionizing 1pocket and advancing it from the RA era.

Second, in the early days, 1pocket was considered a hustler's proposition game, not unlike some of the 8ball prop games that abounded even to this day and drew in scores of suckers. It was not widely played. And yet, Mosconi barbecued Fats (one of the premiere practitioners of the game back then) in their first encounter when he made the mistake of challenging him in Mosconi's home room in Philly, beating him 8 straight for $50 a game (insert prerequisite "that was big money back in the day.") Mosconi would just run 8 and out over and over. The 1pocket guys could not do that, so all their moving was for not because, inevitably, they'd eventually give up the shot.

Third, 14.1 is the most beautiful of pool games. And just like there are those that say 1pocket is boring and oh so slow -- there are those who just can't play it -- saying the same of 14.1.

No doubt, 1pocket is the better gambling game and if that's what its all about for you, fine, I can see that. But its not that way for all of us and 14.1 will always remain the more beautiful and elegant of the pool games.

I know you don't care about any of that but many of us do.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

great post dick....:thumbup:
i tried to send you a greenie but was told i have to spread it around before i send it to you
there is no question to play 14.1 is an extremely difficult game
but as dick said
the skills involved for top level play one pocket are beyond the skils of 14.1/9 ball
meaning you need to be good/ great at more things than the skills necessary for those games
this is not the best analogy
but the winner of the decathlon may not be the worlds best in any of the 10 events
but he is close to the best in 10 events
and the winner has the best "total package"
jmho
icbw

A lot of 1pocket specialists can't play 14.1 to save their lives. So you tell me -- given that fact -- which game is harder.

Lou Figueroa

 

[bbb]

A lot of 1pocket specialists can't play 14.1 to save their lives. So you tell me -- given that fact -- which game is harder.

Lou Figueroa

many straight pool payers cant play 1p for their life....:bash:
because they never played it
onepocket players who dont practice straight pool dont play that well either
we are not talking about excelling at straight pool /banks/ 9 ball/ 15 ball rotation
for one pocket you need to have upper level skills that all those games demand
how many straight pool champions are 9 ball champions??for example
So you tell me -- given that fact -- which game is harder.
you should listen to a one pocket match where thorsten is in the booth with billy incardona
thorsten has no clue what to shoot

 

[SJDinPHX]

I Love One Pocket and Efren so I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.
Efren is not a great One Pocket player because he's feared, he's a great One Pocket player because he does he is Great at every required aspect of the game.

There were more creative player, Cliff, Frost, Ronnie Allen, there were better bankers, Bugs, Cannon Ball, Freddie B, but no one would have been the favorite over Efren in his prime and theirs.

And PLEASE don't call Efren a tournament player!! He beat every American player to death when he came to this country, only Buddy got buy him here in Houston and I don't recall Buddy chasing him around to play afterwards.

Efren is the King, the Best there ever was or will be in Pool!

KingT..I did not mean to infer, Efren was 'strictly' a tournament player!..What I did say was, that had it not been for 'short race' tournament victories, he may not have enjoyed the limelight at one pocket that he did!..By you including Cannonball and Freddy, as examples of who Efren could easily beat, tells me a lot about your level of understanding!..Neither were ever top 1P players!..There were many other players, who could easily win giving them weight! (prime to prime, of course)..That would include RA, Kelly, Frost, AlexP, Jersey Red, and a few others!

No one has more respect for Efren's overall game, than I do!..But I think you are letting your blinding awe of him, get the best of your reasoning!..The players I would make the favorite over Efren, (on an extended 1P match) would include..RA, Kelly, Worst, Frost, AlexP, and a few others near their speed! ..Except for the few times Frost has beaten Efren, I admit, everything else is pure conjecture!

PS..There is certainly nothing wrong, with having a guy like Efren as your hero!..But he is/was simply not unbeatable at one pocket!

Peace!

 

[bbb]

here is alist of world straight pool champions
i dont see too many onepocket champions
i do see efen and shane and darren as 1p champions excelling in straight pool
just sayin,,,,,

....

 

[SJDinPHX]

Blap!

Wrong on several counts.

First off, Efren showed the rest of the world how to play 1pocket at an entirely new level. He brought straight rail, 3C, and rotation skills, that no one over here had ever seen before, and incorporated them into 1pocket.

Efren is and always be "The Man" when it comes to revolutionizing 1pocket and advancing it from the RA era.

Second, in the early days, 1pocket was considered a hustler's proposition game, not unlike some of the 8ball prop games that abounded even to this day and drew in scores of suckers. It was not widely played. And yet, Mosconi barbecued Fats (one of the premiere practitioners of the game back then) in their first encounter when he made the mistake of challenging him in Mosconi's home room in Philly, beating him 8 straight for $50 a game (insert prerequisite "that was big money back in the day.") Mosconi would just run 8 and out over and over. The 1pocket guys could not do that, so all their moving was for not because, inevitably, they'd eventually give up the shot.

Third, 14.1 is the most beautiful of pool games. And just like there are those that say 1pocket is boring and oh so slow -- there are those who just can't play it -- saying the same of 14.1.

No doubt, 1pocket is the better gambling game and if that's what its all about for you, fine, I can see that. But its not that way for all of us and 14.1 will always remain the more beautiful and elegant of the pool games.

I know you don't care about any of that but many of us do.

Lou Figueroa

Wow Lou..I had no idea you were such a fan of the most boring game on a pool table!..Do you also get your rocks off, watching "Bowling for Dollars"?..If straight pool is such a "beautiful and elegant" game, why has it been dead longer than FDR?....You are right about one thing though, I would rather gamble at ping-pong, than 14.1..(and I can't even play ping-pong)

For myself, I would rather watch Cowboy Dennis, and Cocabola Cowboy play a race to 2000 one pocket, for 50 cents, than watch Schmidt and Harriman race to 25 points at 14.1, for two million dollars! ..Wait 'til I tell John Barton, 14.1 is actually your 'best game'...He may vomit! :grin:

 

[3andstop]

Everyone's likes and dislikes differ guys, and their perception of pool games are greatly influenced by their preferences.

I've always loved straight pool and I still consider it the king of all pool games. The focus and concentration it requires for long periods of time make it extremely demanding.

I also have loved the game of 1 pkt. for a long time. I'm 65 now, eyes aren't what they once were, cataracts and poor vision, so straight pool can be very frustrating at times when a run of 20 or 30 gets cut short because I simply can't see the edges of the balls or to see if a ball passes others. 50s and 60s were far more common. I actually get exhausted once I get past 30 or 40 balls ... Isn't that pathetic.

1pkt. still allows me to play at a competitive level so it is a bit less frustrating. There is more back and forth play which makes it enjoyable as well.

As for which one requires more skill .... we're talking about playing at a high level now, for it's requirement to maintain total focus and execution for extended periods of time ... straight pool gets the nod from me.

Either game I could enjoy for hours.

8 ball ... maybe an hour. And that's only because playing it for more than an hour starts taking away time that I could be playing straight pool or 1pkt.

9 ball .... certainly no more than an hour, because it bores the hell out of me. This game is only fun for me to play if it includes playing for money.

So, we all see it differently IMO.

 

[jackpot]

one pocket is harder

Dick Lane was a tremendous straight pool player. He finished 2nd in the U.S.
Open straight pool tournament. Probably ran more hundreds than anyone, beat a lot
of champions for the cash. Crane said other than myself lane is the only one here
that knows how to play this game. His 9 ball game was nowhere near this good,
and his one pocket game was even worse. He said in one pocket you have to be able
do, do everything and I don't have the firepower to come off the end rail with that
double tough shot, or those banks you have come with. I can see the correct shot
and move pretty good and run balls around the stack, but I can't come with long
hard game saver.
jack

 

[HawaiianEye]

A lot of 1pocket specialists can't play 14.1 to save their lives. So you tell me -- given that fact -- which game is harder.

Lou Figueroa

And they have six pockets to shoot them into and all the banks in the world to shoot. Why aren't they world champions at 14.1?

When you play safes in 14.1, you are guarding six pockets from up to 15 object balls. When you are playing one-pocket, you are guarding one hole.

 

[Straightpool_99]

MrEye, Allow me a little rant here!..Your extreme dislike for one pocket often causes you to make some very erroneous statements! ..Efren has always been a dominant force in pool, however is he is not a "genius" at 1P!..It is only his superior ability at pool in general, and the "Efren fear factor" that has allowed him to be so successful at tournament 1P!..There are (or were) at least a half dozen top 1P players, who would be the favorite over him, in a lengthy cash race!

The same is true for Mosconi, Strickland, Archer, and many other top players!..Early in their careers, they were discouraged with 1P, because they had trouble beating even a good B+ 1P player..Henceforth, like you, they never cared to learn the game!..It is by far the most cerebral of all pool games, and requires total commitment to excel at!..Had they concentrated on learning it well, they may not have enjoyed the success they had at their other games of choice!

No other game, requires the combination of pool skills, that 1P does! These include banking, pinpoint speed control and the ability to pocket tough shots, because thats usually all you ever get, up against a good 1P player!..Also, a very high degree of inventiveness and imagination are absolute necessities!..It may seem a little slow at times, because finding the 'right' shot, is a lot tougher than how to play shape, on the next highest ball ! (or in 14.1, any ball)

With all the success you say you've had with other games, you may feel just like the other good players I mentioned!..You didn't want to devote the time to learning it well!..And now that it has risen to the top in hi-$$$ gambling circles, among the worlds best players, you are having trouble admitting that you wish you had!

PS..To say that 14.1 is a 'better' game than 1P, is simply not true!..If it were, 1P would have died out 60 yrs. ago, like all forms of straight pool did!.................... I kinda like the way Jerry put it over in the '1P is so Slow' thread!---->




__________________

One pocket is a gamblers carnival game! Much like the bicycle with the handle bars that turns the wheel the opposite way and the gun with the bent barrel and the lead bottles you are trying to knock over with a tennis ball. It's a game designed to trap people who don't know the specialized shots. 99% of those shots are useless outside of one pocket. When are you ever going to lag bank 2 or 3 rails to a pocket in any other game? Even as a two way shot that's dangerous in all other pool games. Shooting balls OUT of pockets? Banking balls into the stack? Shooting balls away etc..Yes, one pocket does have some shots rarely or never seen in other games. Is it therefore superior? The pinoys showed that 15 ball rotation gives you pretty much all the knowledge needed to succeed at one pocket, IF you have the shooting skills. When you look at the one pocket tournaments, the people winning are for the most part 9/10/15-ball players, the same as in straight pool.

All pool games are trending towards more aggressive play. This is the era of shooters, not movers and bunters. Efren started it, and now others have taken it even further. One pocket may become almost all out offense in time, if the equipment becomes even more "shooter friendly" and the level of play rises. The one pocket players are the ones who want tighter and tighter pockets, because people are shooting out of their "traps". But the shooters will continue to do so, until the pockets become so ridiculously small that the game is ruined.

I tried to give 1p a chance, but there is simply no one in my country who plays it. I also realized that the shots I'd be shooting would not be good choices for the other pool games. The speeds you shoot banks at in 1p are simply lower percentage than the "bank pool" way of shooting them (for instance). There are plenty of tough shots in 10 ball. Straight pool teaches you the stack, and you rarely have to bother with shots that ALMOST go. That's the one thing one pocket teaches you more than straight pool as far as the stack is concerned.

 

[lfigueroa]

many straight pool payers cant play 1p for their life....:bash:
because they never played it
onepocket players who dont practice straight pool dont play that well either
we are not talking about excelling at straight pool /banks/ 9 ball/ 15 ball rotation
for one pocket you need to have upper level skills that all those games demand
how many straight pool champions are 9 ball champions??for example
So you tell me -- given that fact -- which game is harder.
you should listen to a one pocket match where thorsten is in the booth with billy incardona
thorsten has no clue what to shoot

Yes, however the 14.1 guys can hold their own playing 1pocket while the reverse is not generally true. Lots of 14.1 players give the 1pocket guys all they can handle.

Thorsten is European and they are just being to play some 1pocket over there. Here, in 'merica, the 14.1 guys can all play a little one hole.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

here is alist of world straight pool champions
i dont see too many onepocket champions
i do see efen and shane and darren as 1p champions excelling in straight pool
just sayin,,,,,

....View attachment 438128

I think SVB would have to recognized more for his 9ball, while Appleton’s background is English 8ball, no?

In any case, most 1pocket players would not want to be playing Schmidt, Harriman, or even Feijen much 1pocket, IMO.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Wow Lou..I had no idea you were such a fan of the most boring game on a pool table!..Do you also get your rocks off, watching "Bowling for Dollars"?..If straight pool is such a "beautiful and elegant" game, why has it been dead longer than FDR?....You are right about one thing though, I would rather gamble at ping-pong, than 14.1..(and I can't even play ping-pong)

For myself, I would rather watch Cowboy Dennis, and Cocabola Cowboy play a race to 2000 one pocket, for 50 cents, than watch Schmidt and Harriman race to 25 points at 14.1, for two million dollars! ..Wait 'til I tell John Barton, 14.1 is actually your 'best game'...He may vomit! :grin:

Dick, I'm going to guess you were never much of a 14.1 player.

Lou Figueroa

 

[strmanglr scott]

14.1 to me is a great game of knowledge, shot making and imo most importantly, discipline. I just don't see that in 1 pkt to the same degree.

 

[Matt]

I would put both 14.1 and one pocket in my top 3 games (american rotation is up there as well), but the order of those top 3 varies depending on exactly what the criteria is. For player interaction, I think one pocket is pretty hard to beat, so I find it the most interesting of the 3 to watch or play if I'm in the mood for a head-to-head tactical battle. 14.1 gets the edge as a solo practice game or a showcase of skill and concentration. American rotation is nice because it brings the challenge of running balls in order, but with rules to mitigate some of the luck involved in other rotation games (especially the break).

As for one game being more challenging than another, it really depends what your strength and weaknesses are. If you are prone to frequent lapses of technique or concentration or have trouble working the cue ball in tight spaces, 14.1 is going to be tough. If you have trouble playing longer position routes and kicking, american rotation is going to seem difficult. If you have trouble anticipating your opponent's move and controlling the cue ball and object ball speed at the same time, one pocket is a challenge.

Fortunately, all 3 of these games require the same equipment to play, so I'm only limited by what my opponents are interested in playing, which is why I play more 8-ball and 9-ball than anything else.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Wow Lou..I had no idea you were such a fan of the most boring game on a pool table!..Do you also get your rocks off, watching "Bowling for Dollars"?..If straight pool is such a "beautiful and elegant" game, why has it been dead longer than FDR?....You are right about one thing though, I would rather gamble at ping-pong, than 14.1..(and I can't even play ping-pong)

For myself, I would rather watch Cowboy Dennis, and Cocabola Cowboy play a race to 2000 one pocket, for 50 cents.

1 The only way you could not have known that Lou was a big fan of 14.1 is if you had your head stuck in a Yukon Jack bottle for the last 8 years...oh wait...nevermind.

2 Bowling For Dollars was filmed at Thunderbowl Lanes in Allen Park, Mich. and it was filmed in the Arena which was the south 20 lanes. The Cushion & Cue poolroom was on the 2nd floor and had windows looking down on the Arena. When the people rolled their balls we would all pound on the windows and the audience would turn and look. Sweet eh?

3 Except for the opening break 14.1 players need to know how to hit dozens of different break shots while in One-Pocket you have the same break shot every game and still can't make a ball.

4 If Coco wants to play me he has to bet at least $1.

RBL

 

[lfigueroa]

14.1 to me is a great game of knowledge, shot making and imo most importantly, discipline. I just don't see that in 1 pkt to the same degree.

scott, I agree. Discipline at 14.1 is extremely important, especially on tough equipment. You can't let up for a single shot. See DH 351 run -- basically on a 5 pocket table -- it's amazing.

The beauty in 14.1 is subtle, even more so than in 1pocket and it takes a mature, finely tuned pool palate to appreciate it. When you listen to knowledgable 14.1 commentary on the game being played at the highest level, even the cavemen should be able to pick this up.

Lou Figueroa