World Fargo Rating list --place changes from the US Open

[Bob Jewett]

... Skills tests in non-competitive settings on a variety of equipment and conditions are not always good predictors of performance in competition on tough equipment in tournament conditions. ...

An example of this is one fairly new player in a local league that I gave a skill test to in order to place him initially in the handicapped league. The test included draw/follow/stop/cut shots. He did far better in the test than he later played in the league. Maybe the test gave him a specific task to do but in actual play he could not yet plan a specific task.

It would have been better to supplement the simple tests above with multi-ball runout situations, and in the BU Exams (example: http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Exam-II_Skills-Masters.pdf) but then the test would have taken longer.

 

[realkingcobra]

If people want more info about the skill test systems Mike mentioned, here are the pertinent resource pages:

Equal Offense

Hopkins Q Skills

progressive practice

International Playing Ability Test (IPAT)

Billiard University (BU) playing-ability Exams

The "playing the ghost" rating drills are also good measures of basic offensive playing ability.

Enjoy,
Dave

You didn't answer my question.

 

[realkingcobra]

An example of this is one fairly new player in a local league that I gave a skill test to in order to place him initially in the handicapped league. The test included draw/follow/stop/cut shots. He did far better in the test than he later played in the league. Maybe the test gave him a specific task to do but in actual play he could not yet plan a specific task.

It would have been better to supplement the simple tests above with multi-ball runout situations, and in the BU Exams (example: http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Exam-II_Skills-Masters.pdf) but then the test would have taken longer.

I'll ask you the same question I asked dr_dave. Can you point out any pool tournament's that have been held in the past, in which some sort of skill level test was required pryor to entry into the tournament?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'll ask you the same question I asked dr_dave. Can you point out any pool tournament's that have been held in the past, in which some sort of skill level test was required pryor to entry into the tournament?

Well, maybe the DCC straight pool qualifies for that.

And at one time the Boys' (now, and Girls') Clubs had a fixed-pattern runout test that kids could do locally. I'm not sure whether there was head-to-head competition for the finals though.

 

[realkingcobra]

Well, maybe the DCC straight pool qualifies for that.

In what way?

 

[Bob Jewett]

In what way?

The initial solo high run trials are a qualification test for the knockout part.

 

[realkingcobra]

The initial solo high run trials are a qualification test for the knockout part.

And what do you suppose would happen if that high run test was offered to the whole world, on the exact same tables in 1,000 different locations around the world, and everyone had 11 months to try and be one of the 64 finalists to play in a one time only event....what do you think the odds would be of putting together a Iist of the top players in the world for that event....if the prize fund was..... $256,000 and given the 11 months time frame for testing, players could keep retesting as often as they wanted untill a cut off date.

 

[realkingcobra]

Well, maybe the DCC straight pool qualifies for that.

And at one time the Boys' (now, and Girls') Clubs had a fixed-pattern runout test that kids could do locally. I'm not sure whether there was head-to-head competition for the finals though.

So, in other words, no pool tournament's that you know of have ever been promoted as pro's only, decided by some kind of skill level test designed to separate the real Pros from the wannabes.

 

[dr_dave]

I'll ask you the same question I asked dr_dave. Can you point out any pool tournament's that have been held in the past, in which some sort of skill level test was required pryor to entry into the tournament?

Sorry. I didn't know you asked me this question.

I don't know of any pool tournaments that have required this. An example of where this is done is in Figure Skating, where the level you enter in competition is determined directly by your skill test scores.

Based on my experience with the $2500 BU Playing-Ability-Exam Challenge, I would think it might be difficult to get pool players to film and post videos of skills tests. And it would take a lot of time to review the videos, and some people will always view video evidence with suspicion (as with the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge). Live qualifiers events might be a better approach; but this takes a lot of time and expense for all involved, unless you have major sponsorship.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GideonF]

So, in other words, no pool tournament's that you know of have ever been promoted as pro's only, decided by some kind of skill level test designed to separate the real Pros from the wannabes.

The problem with skill tests is that they do a great job of measuring the skills they are testing, but not other skills. So your test (or the DCC) measures ability to score on offence but doesn't consider judgment as to when to play safe as opposed to going for the shot (indeed one is forced to go for the shot) so a player who has a weakness of playing too aggressively is not punished as he would be in a real match (in fact, such a player may have an advantage because they may be more used to going for questionable shots and thus better at them) and doesn't consider safety play at all.

Your 5 lives approach also adds another element not present in regulation play. If you've ever seen someone play 8-ball in the English rule set (where after a foul the incoming player gets 2 shots) you see people deliberately breaking up clusters with their first shot. So someone who occasionally has problems with the pack but never misses an open shot gets to still be alive when they should be sitting down.

All of that said, your test and Bob's DCC test likely would get most of the top players in the top 64, but neither is perfect. Also, if you've got sponsors lined up, I'd love to see the results. Good luck.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[realkingcobra]

The problem with skill tests is that they do a great job of measuring the skills they are testing, but not other skills. So your test (or the DCC) measures ability to score on offence but doesn't consider judgment as to when to play safe as opposed to going for the shot (indeed one is forced to go for the shot) so a player who has a weakness of playing too aggressively is not punished as he would be in a real match (in fact, such a player may have an advantage because they may be more used to going for questionable shots and thus better at them) and doesn't consider safety play at all.

Your 5 lives approach also adds another element not present in regulation play. If you've ever seen someone play 8-ball in the English rule set (where after a foul the incoming player gets 2 shots) you see people deliberately breaking up clusters with their first shot. So someone who occasionally has problems with the pack but never misses an open shot gets to still be alive when they should be sitting down.

All of that said, your test and Bob's DCC test likely would get most of the top players in the top 64, but neither is perfect. Also, if you've got sponsors lined up, I'd love to see the results. Good luck.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And boxers chin is always going to be in question....until it gets hit, even if that boxer is the heavy weight champion of the world, as in the case of Lenox Lewis when he got knocked out and lost his title, but he still had the skills to regain the title again.

I do understand player opposition and what it brings into a game, believe me, I've been playing pool for the better part of 50 years.

But this I do know for sure, in order for pool as a sport is has to go somewhere....and THAT....everyone agrees with across the board. What no one seems to be able to answer....is where is that "WHERE" This I know for sure, if there is no LINE drawn between the PROFESSIONALS in this sport, who ARE in FACT making a good living participating in this sport on a regular basis, representing the 6 most desired games of pool being played at the highest level possible, and that's 10 ball, 9 ball, 8 ball, 1 pocket, banks, and 14.1....then there is no future for up coming players to look forward to. In any sport a person can watch on TV, or go see it live...the spectators are being entertained by the best that sport has to offer,....we DON'T have that to offer yet in this sport, and without being able to present the best possible players on the planet in PRO events, you'll never gain the viewership needed to entice any kind of sponsorships that start with the question....WELL, WE MIGHT BE INTERESTED.....HOW MANY VIEWERS DID YOU HAVE DURING YOUR LAST EVENT? And there lays the problem, and it's ALWAYS been a problem....because no one wants separation of skills in this sport because everyone is so afraid of trying something different....that DON'T require the partisapation of the lesser skilled players....which is why all pool tournament's have remained nothing more than ring games funded mostly by the participants playing in the event, obscured by the truth behind most all pool tournament's and leagues, and that truth is so that OTHERS can make some money....outside of the player partisapation. I agree with the Fargo rating system to an extent, because you're right, my system won't tell someone who wants to bet on a particular match...who the probable winner is going to be, and like it or not....that information is important and is needed....because people like to gamble....but, how does knowing how to bet, or WHO to bet on in a match.....help straighten out pool and bring NEW world beaters, the unknowns to everyone....how does knowing how to place that bet....help build a real professional, defined level of playing skills....to the table and separate those players from the rest of the pack....give more up coming players something now to strive towards....and entice sponsors to want to be a part of this sport.....IF OUR FIRST INTERESTS ARE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BET ON THE GAME BY MATCHING UP THE PLAYERS.....BUT ONLY IF THEY'RE KNOWN PLAYERS FIRST.

 

[realkingcobra]

Well now after making that post, I feel little pissed off....so I'm going to lay something out for everyone to think about....in a simple question. The question is....HOW DO YOU GET A 100,000 VIEWERS WATCHING POOL ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Because THAT'S the question being asked by Nike and everyone else. They don't give a shit about this sport, and why should they....they have NO products being sold in the billiards industry. They rely on viewers seeing ads to lead them to their products. They have bean counters that say for every 100,000 viewers that see our ads, we'll make X% on our advertising investment dollars.

Now if Nike were to tell me....Glen, if you can show us that you can bring to the table in one event....100,000 viewers. And growing upon this figures....we'd be interested in sponsoring a million dollar Nike world q0 ball championship, but.....we want a years worth of advertising at least. Can you show us a plan that would do that....my answer is yes, give me 2 years and I'll be ready.

Can Fargo rating matches bring in 100,000 viewers? Answer that.....anyone! People, if we DON'T get out of this box of thinking, and start thinking outside the box.....20 years from now nothing is going to be different....except pool will have moved outside of this country, leaving nothing but the league players behind....to continue playing for a league championship.....whoooop' de' doooo'

 

[realkingcobra]

People....we don't even have a sports arena....we rely on roll'em in, set um' up, roll'em out tables in casinos or convention centers....all for the purpose of selling products....endorsed by the amount of players that show up. Live streaming sometimes on 1 or 2 tables at best. How in the hell does anyone expect to get a 100,000 viewer's with this repeated business model when it's never even come close to working, yet keeps being repeated....it's insanity!

 

[realkingcobra]

Damn....this is driving me nuts, I might as well give everyone a little more insight to my plans. Say there's going to be a Pro 10 ball tournament held December 28-30, 2017....and starting 1/1/2017 10 ball skill level testing will begin, and any pool room owner or private table owner who owns a factory stock Diamond 9ft ProAm with the factory Pro cut pockets can apply to have their table be a sanctioned test table, yes there is a fee to sanction the pool table, yes there will be video feed requirements just so everyone knows. Let's say the skill test has a fee of $50 and $25 of that fee is mailed in with the players score. And this skill level test was going to be available worldwide wide.

Now, back to the tournament. Held in a convention center in Vegas, 64 Diamond 9fts are rolled in and set up for the event. The event will he limited to 512 players, single elimination format, my new rules....of which I've already posted. Just so everyone knows, 256 players will be eliminated during the first day of play running 4 rounds of 3 hour matches. No entry fees required. All matches start on time, and end on time with the exception of a one game tie breaker during the 1/2 hours break between rounds.

Back to the testing again, no skill level tests are made public until 8/1/2017, after which they will then be made public along with a separation between the top 512 players and the rest of the pac. Should a player not be listed in the upper 512 players and wish to retest in an attempt to better their score, retesting will be available until the final cut off date of 11/1/2017 which still allows almost 60 days to make arrangements to make it to the tournament on time. During that 8 months a 100,000 players submit their scores from all around the world. That's $25 × 100.000 = $2,500,000.00 in skill level testing paid in and the same amount paid out to those that own the test tables.

I'm going to leave this at this point, but I hope some can see where I'm going with this, but there's still one of the most important parts of this I'm not going to discuss.

 

[realkingcobra]

Now, there's 512 players for you to figure out how to fargo rate....most of which will be unknowns, but I assure you, most, if not all will be of Pro caliber!

 

[BeiberLvr]

Damn....this is driving me nuts, I might as well give everyone a little more insight to my plans. Say there's going to be a Pro 10 ball tournament held December 28-30, 2017....and starting 1/1/2017 10 ball skill level testing will begin, and any pool room owner or private table owner who owns a factory stock Diamond 9ft ProAm with the factory Pro cut pockets can apply to have their table be a sanctioned test table, yes there is a fee to sanction the pool table, yes there will be video feed requirements just so everyone knows. Let's say the skill test has a fee of $50 and $25 of that fee is mailed in with the players score. And this skill level test was going to be available worldwide wide.

Now, back to the tournament. Held in a convention center in Vegas, 64 Diamond 9fts are rolled in and set up for the event. The event will he limited to 512 players, single elimination format, my new rules....of which I've already posted. Just so everyone knows, 256 players will be eliminated during the first day of play running 4 rounds of 3 hour matches. No entry fees required. All matches start on time, and end on time with the exception of a one game tie breaker during the 1/2 hours break between rounds.

Back to the testing again, no skill level tests are made public until 8/1/2017, after which they will then be made public along with a separation between the top 512 players and the rest of the pac. Should a player not be listed in the upper 512 players and wish to retest in an attempt to better their score, retesting will be available until the final cut off date of 11/1/2017 which still allows almost 60 days to make arrangements to make it to the tournament on time. During that 8 months a 100,000 players submit their scores from all around the world. That's $25 × 100.000 = $2,500,000.00 in skill level testing paid in and the same amount paid out to those that own the test tables.

I'm going to leave this at this point, but I hope some can see where I'm going with this, but there's still one of the most important parts of this I'm not going to discuss.

Buddy. Seriously now?

Dr. Dave could barely get 10 people to take his skills test (BU Exam), and it was freeroll to win money.

Yet, you honestly think you'll get 100,000 people to take your test AND pay for it when only 0.5% of them will make the cut?

 

[realkingcobra]

Buddy. Seriously now?

Dr. Dave could barely get 10 people to take his skills test (BU Exam), and it was freeroll to win money.

Yet, you honestly think you'll get 100,000 people to take your test AND pay for it when only 0.5% of them will make the cut?

Wrong kind of test....Buddy! That's a shot making skill test with pre-set shots, I saw SVB miss a few of them shots too, has nothing to do with running balls out from an opening break....Buddy! Has nothing to do with picking 5 balls and shooting them in rotation order....Buddy! Has nothing to do with breaking the rack and scoring balls on the break.....Buddy! And has NOTHING to do with leading up to a world pool tournament.....Buddy!

 

[realkingcobra]

Buddy. Seriously now?

Dr. Dave could barely get 10 people to take his skills test (BU Exam), and it was freeroll to win money.

Yet, you honestly think you'll get 100,000 people to take your test AND pay for it when only 0.5% of them will make the cut?

Do you honestly believe the average and above average AND the Pros in this sport wouldn't want to know where they stand skill wise against the rest of the world....if there WAS a list they could see their NAME on....and see exactly where they are on that WORLD list? Ego alone would cause players to WANT to take the skill level test. AND being at the BOTTOM of that list....does NOT eliminate them from playing in a major world pool tournament championship....I just haven't been talking about where they do rate and play, I've just been talking about where they DON'T belong.....and don't that's playing against the PROS if they themselves are NOT a Pro! My plans break down the pool players of the world into 4 different categories....now if you go back and reread what I've posted, you'll see that. But to straighten out pool world wide....I feel we need to straighten out and PAY the Pro's FIRST, then work our way down that list!

 

[realkingcobra]

Buddy. Seriously now?

Dr. Dave could barely get 10 people to take his skills test (BU Exam), and it was freeroll to win money.

Yet, you honestly think you'll get 100,000 people to take your test AND pay for it when only 0.5% of them will make the cut?

Furthermore, checking your name on that list to see where you stand....is not going to be free, it's going to cost you a $1 everytime you log in. The list won't be free for everyone to see until after the cut off date to get qualified. ALL proceeds generated from checking that list....are ALSO KICKED into the Pro Player prize fund.....to be paid OUT to the players that DO show up to compete!

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Ill get the devil some mittens for christmas