Break Speed

[KMRUNOUT]

Wow lots of misinformation here. Let's break it down a little.

First of all, the OP asked how to get more power. He did *not* ask the merits of hitting the break hard. Conditions are going to vary. Games vary. Rules vary. Limitations of cue ball positioning on the break vary. (break from the box, or not). For 9 ball, you rarely need a huge break. Almost every scenario can be deal with at under 20mph. In 8 ball, especially big table 8 ball, it sure is nice to be able to crush the rack.

I used to top out around 28, now it takes some practice to get over 25. However, I can hit the front ball good and square at that speed. For 9 ball, I typically break around 18 or so.

Here is an example of my controlled 9 ball break. It is mostly all arm. I lift up a tiny bit, but that really adds nothing. Check it out: https://youtu.be/YONMFmjVXFc?t=8m

A good tip for generating power without much cos in accuracy: learn how to use your stroking hand. Try this. Put your hand in a sink full of water. Make sort of a fist...that shape your hand would be in when holding the cue. Now only half submerge your hand, so the thumb side of your fist is pointing at the ceiling, and the opposite side of your fist is pointing toward the bottom of the sink. Now snap your hand closed so that you squirt water strait up in the air out of your hand. This exact motion is HUGE. When breaking, let the cue rest on your fingers. Try to learn to be aware of the moment of contact. Try to snap the cue *up* against the palm of your hand right as you are making contact. This little action can give you a LOT more power. Play around with it.

I find that my hardest breaks happen when I 1) keep my head down and *rotate* my body around a fixed axis. My back leg kicks back, which acts as a counterbalance to the motion of my arm swinging, and allows my core to more or less stay on the line of the shot. 2) Follow through to a specific point well beyond the cue ball. For me, I pick a spot about 12 inches past the cueball and try to get my tip right out to that spot. The follow through itself doesn't do anything, but it is a symptom of a good stroke. I pick a spot on the cloth to aim my tip at. I find doing this increases both my power and accuracy.

People saying its not how hard, it is speed, timing, etc....there is one and only one factor that determines the speed of your break. That is the speed of the cue tip at contact with the cue ball. Timing is only the ability to generate your peak speed at this moment. The better you can tune in to the moment of contact, the easier it will be to generate cue ball speed.

One other thing...if you look at anyone that breaks hard, the last thing you want to do is put your weight on your back foot. "Lunging off the back foot" is a recipe for low power and even worse accuracy. You want your weight on your front foot. It will stay there. You will rotate your body around this weight. Trying to "move your body" , you will never be fast enough to connect right with the cueball.

Have a look at this video. Charlie Bryant has a longer pay per view video in which he breaks down every tiny movement of the break in great detail. But this is a pretty good overview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3U-qUPU134

Finally, but the Break Rak. No other device has helped me more with my break. It is a fantastic training aid. You will learn to control your cueball, and also to deliver the cue ball into the rack with a great pop that really gets action out of the rack. Can't recommend this thing enough!

Hope this all helps,

KMRUNOUT

 

[BasementDweller]

The break is not about how hard you can hit the CB...it's about speed and timing...and obviously accuracy. A poor transition, at the end of the final backswing, is responsible for more errors on the break than anything else.

What's interesting is that, while you don't know me at all, yet have had the opportunity to read all the positive reviews from people of all abilities working with me...you continue to try to bash me here. Hard to picture something you have no knowledge of. A closed mind cannot even envision the possiblity that an SPF stroke can be used to break with.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I'm not trying to bash you, I'm trying to bash this particular piece of information. Just because someone CAN develop an okay break with a pendulum stroke doesn't mean that's the stroke they should use. Of course there are times when a softer break is all that's needed but if you pay attention to the pros you will quickly realize that NONE of them use a pendulum stroke when they want to actually hit the break with power. None of them! Do you not think there's a reason for this? Do you believe they should all convert to an SPF stroke for their break shot?

If someone were to spend their entire playing career perfecting this pendulum break stroke they might eventually be able to hit the break with some power. The problem will be, in order to hit the break with power with this stroke they will have to stroke near their maximum capability. That's the great thing about SVB's break. He synchronizes all of his moving parts nearly perfectly and hits his 10 ball break around 22-23 mph. This is nowhere near his maximum capability! It's really a thing of beauty.

The moving body is used to generate speed and INCREASE a player's potential. Once you perfect this movement you can dial back the stroke and still hit the balls harder than with a pendulum stroke. That's just a fact!

 

[Bavafongoul]

I have a break shot that is ........less than satisfying for me.
The ball scatter on my breaks doesn't produce as an easy open table.
Yet periodically, even I get the cue ball to slam the rack and remains squarely
in the middle of the table after pocketing a ball leaving me a wide open easy run.

I never associated that outcome with the speed of my break, aside from just trying
to hit the rack hard. What I am trying to say is when that happens, it wasn't because
I used a more powerful stroke or at least, I don't recall using one or I can't remember.
But you generally recall the breaks that sounded extraordinarily loud and powerful.

What I credited those great break outcomes too, rightly or wrongly, was the lack of
spin on the cue ball that generally is created when I follow through after hitting the
cue ball hard and the position the cue ball actually strikes the rack of balls. I know
by firsthand experience, the harder you stroke the ball, the less accurate your stroke
delivery becomes and your intended, exact contact point on the rack also suffers.

So to my way of thinking, it was more a matter of where I struck the cue ball with my
stroke and where the cue ball hit the rack that resulted in a great scatter of balls and
more importantly, resulted in the cue ball staying in the middle of the table afterwards.

Like I earlier wrote, I readily acknowledge that my breaks sucks and I just can't generate
the velocity I'd like to produce but one has to work with what they have otherwise it turns
into a game of envy rather than a game of pool. so you make the most of what you have.

I defer to others about the nuances of the break and the importance of the speed or how to
generate more of it. I just can't help but wonder how many hard hitters actually hit their
intended contact point on the rack? I know their break acoustics can sound great but the
cue ball often gets loose on them leaving a difficult shot causing them to push.....any thoughts?



Matt B.

 

[shinobi]

I'm not trying to bash you, I'm trying to bash this particular piece of information. Just because someone CAN develop an okay break with a pendulum stroke doesn't mean that's the stroke they should use. Of course there are times when a softer break is all that's needed but if you pay attention to the pros you will quickly realize that NONE of them use a pendulum stroke when they want to actually hit the break with power. None of them! Do you not think there's a reason for this? Do you believe they should all convert to an SPF stroke for their break shot?

If someone were to spend their entire playing career perfecting this pendulum break stroke they might eventually be able to hit the break with some power. The problem will be, in order to hit the break with power with this stroke they will have to stroke near their maximum capability. That's the great thing about SVB's break. He synchronizes all of his moving parts nearly perfectly and hits his 10 ball break around 22-23 mph. This is nowhere near his maximum capability! It's really a thing of beauty.

The moving body is used to generate speed and INCREASE a player's potential. Once you perfect this movement you can dial back the stroke and still hit the balls harder than with a pendulum stroke. That's just a fact!

I feel like we've entered into a bizarre world where 100% of pros with powerful breaks use body movement other than a pendulum stroke, and Scott thinks it is unnecessary.

Well, I'll bite. Scott, got any youtube links and time references to professionals breaking with power, using a pendulum stroke? Hopefully not a Corey Deuel soft break.

 

[Cornerman]

Wow lots of misinformation here. Let's break it down a little.

First of all, the OP asked how to get more power. He did *not* ask the merits of hitting the break hard. Conditions are going to vary. Games vary. Rules vary. Limitations of cue ball positioning on the break vary. (break from the box, or not). For 9 ball, you rarely need a huge break. Almost every scenario can be deal with at under 20mph. In 8 ball, especially big table 8 ball, it sure is nice to be able to crush the rack.

I used to top out around 28, now it takes some practice to get over 25. However, I can hit the front ball good and square at that speed. For 9 ball, I typically break around 18 or so.

Here is an example of my controlled 9 ball break. It is mostly all arm. I lift up a tiny bit, but that really adds nothing. Check it out: https://youtu.be/YONMFmjVXFc?t=8m

A good tip for generating power without much cos in accuracy: learn how to use your stroking hand. Try this. Put your hand in a sink full of water. Make sort of a fist...that shape your hand would be in when holding the cue. Now only half submerge your hand, so the thumb side of your fist is pointing at the ceiling, and the opposite side of your fist is pointing toward the bottom of the sink. Now snap your hand closed so that you squirt water strait up in the air out of your hand. This exact motion is HUGE. When breaking, let the cue rest on your fingers. Try to learn to be aware of the moment of contact. Try to snap the cue *up* against the palm of your hand right as you are making contact. This little action can give you a LOT more power. Play around with it.

I find that my hardest breaks happen when I 1) keep my head down and *rotate* my body around a fixed axis. My back leg kicks back, which acts as a counterbalance to the motion of my arm swinging, and allows my core to more or less stay on the line of the shot. 2) Follow through to a specific point well beyond the cue ball. For me, I pick a spot about 12 inches past the cueball and try to get my tip right out to that spot. The follow through itself doesn't do anything, but it is a symptom of a good stroke. I pick a spot on the cloth to aim my tip at. I find doing this increases both my power and accuracy.

People saying its not how hard, it is speed, timing, etc....there is one and only one factor that determines the speed of your break. That is the speed of the cue tip at contact with the cue ball. Timing is only the ability to generate your peak speed at this moment. The better you can tune in to the moment of contact, the easier it will be to generate cue ball speed.

One other thing...if you look at anyone that breaks hard, the last thing you want to do is put your weight on your back foot. "Lunging off the back foot" is a recipe for low power and even worse accuracy. You want your weight on your front foot. It will stay there. You will rotate your body around this weight. Trying to "move your body" , you will never be fast enough to connect right with the cueball.

Have a look at this video. Charlie Bryant has a longer pay per view video in which he breaks down every tiny movement of the break in great detail. But this is a pretty good overview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3U-qUPU134

Finally, but the Break Rak. No other device has helped me more with my break. It is a fantastic training aid. You will learn to control your cueball, and also to deliver the cue ball into the rack with a great pop that really gets action out of the rack. Can't recommend this thing enough!

Hope this all helps,

KMRUNOUT

Not for nothing, but the , OP asked two specific questions, neither were about power.

1) What is your break speed?
2) Tips on increasing speed (this looked to be a request)

Your post was excellent as always, but he was asking specifically about speed and increase in speed, not power, squareness, efficiency, etc.


.

 

[one stroke]

I'm not trying to bash you, I'm trying to bash this particular piece of information. Just because someone CAN develop an okay break with a pendulum stroke doesn't mean that's the stroke they should use. Of course there are times when a softer break is all that's needed but if you pay attention to the pros you will quickly realize that NONE of them use a pendulum stroke when they want to actually hit the break with power. None of them! Do you not think there's a reason for this? Do you believe they should all convert to an SPF stroke for their break shot?

If someone were to spend their entire playing career perfecting this pendulum break stroke they might eventually be able to hit the break with some power. The problem will be, in order to hit the break with power with this stroke they will have to stroke near their maximum capability. That's the great thing about SVB's break. He synchronizes all of his moving parts nearly perfectly and hits his 10 ball break around 22-23 mph. This is nowhere near his maximum capability! It's really a thing of beauty.

The moving body is used to generate speed and INCREASE a player's potential. Once you perfect this movement you can dial back the stroke and still hit the balls harder than with a pendulum stroke. That's just a fact!

LOL do you honestly believe for one second it's easier to get all the moveing parts of the body to work together than it is just your arm , I hardly think so
Shane has spend yrs on perfecting his break and what he's perfected is the pattern of the break results no more no less ,
1

 

[BasementDweller]

I'm glad you LOL'd.

Who cares what's easier? It's easier and much simplier to pitch a ball underhanded than overhanded but for some strange reason players still pitch overhanded. What makes me LOL is the idea that all Shane has perfected is the pattern of the break. You're not paying close enough attention if you really believe this.

 

[9Ballr]

I have been trying to get my break speed up a little and average between 17~19 mph. I am over 60 and think I have lost a lot on my break. What is your break speed?

I have tried many different ways to increase the speed, but I top out at 21 mph and it is out of control. Any tips on increasing speed would be appreciated...

17 to 19 mph is enough to get a good spread and pocket at least one ball.

Make sure you play with positioning the cue ball to find YOUR magic spot. Everyone is a little different.

Also, I always get a real good and fast break when I break from the rail and just put index and middle finger around the cue and the cue ball in an appropriate distance from the rail.

This is of course somewhat closer to the rail than breaking from the head string using a bridge.
Learn to control the cue even if you lean into the shot and start using your body. Just learn to time it correctly.

 

[Awizzzy]

I can say with experience that after hitting it hard for so long, I changed to a softer break. Now, I don't mean that I roll it slow, but i don't fire at it anymore. Just make a good solid swing and have it contact the head ball dead on and it will spread just as good as somebody trying to come out of their socks.

I just realized that you really don't have to go balls out to get a good or even great break.


Just my 2 cents.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Coop1701]

I can say with experience that after hitting it hard for so long, I changed to a softer break. Now, I don't mean that I roll it slow, but i don't fire at it anymore. Just make a good solid swing and have it contact the head ball dead on and it will spread just as good as somebody trying to come out of their socks.

I just realized that you really don't have to go balls out to get a good or even great break.

Totally Agree... I use to slam it really hard like Mike Sigel. But I found that I get a much better spread off of a controlled break.

 

[fastone371]

Totally Agree... I use to slam it really hard like Mike Sigel. But I found that I get a much better spread off of a controlled break.

Absolutely!!!!! I love opponents who think they need to hit the rack 60 MPH, I get to watch their cue ball fly uncontrollably around the table more often than not, quite often the CB even finds a pocket to fall into. :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Samiel]

41 years old as of this post... I break between 16-18 mph according to my app with my normal cue. I don't generally try to crush it. I have found that the more I try to crush it, the worse off my break usually is.

 

[CreeDo]

Simply not true. You can deliver a 20+ mph break using a pure pendulum swing. You're right, in that it's all about the timing. The cue weight is 3x as much as the CB, so tons of kinetic energy can be created with just the the cue weight and perfect timing.

Somebody can do this, I'm sure. But are you positive EVERYONE can?
I try all the time to do 20+ mph with only my arm... it's not happening.
Whether that's technique or just pathetic biceps I don't know.

I'd LOVE to restrict my break to all arm, I prefer it, I just have little luck getting
over 20mph doing it, so basically I do 17.5 mph breaks on 8, 9b, and 10b
with mixed results.

Excessive body movement, and excessive followthrough do nothing to improve the [/i]accuracy[/i] necessary on the break.

Well of course they don't.
The OP didn't ask for accuracy tips and nobody said lunging increases accuracy.
It loses accuracy but I believe it permits more power, due to simple physics/biology.
More muscles and mass involved = more power. The trick is not wasting that power
by mistiming the movement or hitting the cue ball poorly.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Not for nothing, but the , OP asked two specific questions, neither were about power.

1) What is your break speed?
2) Tips on increasing speed (this looked to be a request)

Your post was excellent as always, but he was asking specifically about speed and increase in speed, not power, squareness, efficiency, etc.


.

Freddy, as you know, speed *is* power. They are functionally related (in the mathematical sense). Accelerating a mass to a given velocity over a certain time or distance is exactly power, is it not?
Did I not specifically mention my break speed, and tips to increase one's break speed? I also mentioned other things...more in reference to some of the other posts here.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Keith Jawahir]

You're perfectly fine with what you have. I'm 35 and I break about 16-19mph consistently. The real key is accuracy. If you can hit that head ball square, you'll get a much better reaction from the balls, plus the added benefit of more control.

 

[LuckyStroke]

What I've done with the break is more what Scott Lee talking about. For nine ball, I try to execute a stop shot to leave the cue in the middle of the table, making the wing ball in the corner. I'd say I'm usually in the 14-16 range using that break on a diamond table. If I'm on a valley, I'm probably more like 16-18. I'd guess I'm about 70% successful doing this.

To practice I break and rerack over and over, just trying to execute the stop shot. Overtime it started to become more natural and I started adding power without much effort at all.

My advice is, just practice it a lot. Work on establishing your break shot and exciting it consistently, and overtime your speed is sure to come up. Also, make sure you keep your hand loose. You can't get good power with a tense hand

Ben

 

[Cornerman]

Freddy, as you know, speed *is* power. They are functionally related (in the mathematical sense). Accelerating a mass to a given velocity over a certain time or distance is exactly power, is it not?
Did I not specifically mention my break speed, and tips to increase one's break speed? I also mentioned other things...more in reference to some of the other posts here.

KMRUNOUT

Although there is a functional relation, velocity and power aren't related linearly.

Couple of different looks:

Power = Work/t = F*d/t = F*v

It's velocity (speed with a vector) that's important. I think if you start talking about power, then the F component isn't fixed (the acceleration component of F=ma isn't fixed), so the Power will be different for different accelerations, even if the final velocity is the same in the cuestick model. That's the short quick lurch (high acceleration, smaller distance) vs slow, long backswing/forward swing (low acceration). They get to the same velocity, but different accelerations, so different Power.


Also, since Power is a "per unit of time" measurement, then you need some time element to have an idea of how much absolute *stuff* you get (Work, in this case).

The Work done at a Low power at 10 seconds could equal the Work done at high power at 1 second. In the end, you'd want to know how much work is done, not how much Power (in the physics sense).

Freddie <~~~ waiting for Dr. Dave to tell me how wrong I am

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Although there is a functional relation, velocity and power aren't related linearly.

Couple of different looks:

Power = Work/t = F*d/t = F*v

It's velocity (speed with a vector) that's important. I think if you start talking about power, then the F component isn't fixed (the acceleration component of F=ma isn't fixed), so the Power will be different for different accelerations, even if the final velocity is the same in the cuestick model. That's the short quick lurch (high acceleration, smaller distance) vs slow, long backswing/forward swing (low acceration). They get to the same velocity, but different accelerations, so different Power.


Also, since Power is a "per unit of time" measurement, then you need some time element to have an idea of how much absolute *stuff* you get (Work, in this case).

The Work done at a Low power at 10 seconds could equal the Work done at high power at 1 second. In the end, you'd want to know how much work is done, not how much Power (in the physics sense).

Freddie <~~~ waiting for Dr. Dave to tell me how wrong I am

I don't disagree with any of this. However, I think this is WAY further away from the OP's question. "That guy has a powerful break"...I don't think much in the way of physics is required to make that observation, particularly when using the more lay version of the word power.

My guess is that for most pool breaks, the distance from the bridge to the cue ball (rather the tip when pulled however far back you pull it and the cue ball) is going to be close enough that the net power for a given cue tip velocity is going to be close for a wide range of strokes and bridges. Also, with regard to a pool stroke, speed doesn't exist. Only velocity. There is no speed if not in a direction. Outside of physics, speed is essentially synonymous with velocity. But yeah, I think it goes without saying that anything other than a vector that points through the center of the cueball at the center of the head ball will result in less velocity per se (speed in the correct direction). Achieving a higher cue speed at impact necessarily implies a higher net acceleration. (From rest to max velocity). This necessarily implies a higher amount of work. While there may be time differences, would it not be fair to estimate that these differences will be small? My guess is that if you time Bustamante's stroke from all the way pulled back to cue ball impact, and compare that to a guy that breaks half his speed, I bet the times are much closer to the same than to half. More work over an equal time is more power. Am I wrong? Maybe a better way to say it: Can you describe an example in which a higher cue tip velocity at impact can be achieved *without* more power? Assuming we are only talking about the cue at rest vs the cue at contact velocity.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Cornerman]

I don't disagree with any of this. However, I think this is WAY further away from the OP's question. "That guy has a powerful break"...I don't think much in the way of physics is required to make that observation, particularly when using the more lay version of the word power.

We're getting away from the original post. I was just pointing out a minor nit considering that your post was trying to point out misinformation by others, but you used the term "power," which wasn't what the OP asked, technically speaking. It's akin to someone pointing out a grammatical mistake, yet had grammar errors in his own post.

I don't disagree with layman terms, or methods of getting to a higher speed. But in the end, physics-wise, power and velocity are two different animals without a linear relationship.

More work over an equal time is more power. Am I wrong? Maybe a better way to say it: Can you describe an example in which a higher cue tip velocity at impact can be achieved *without* more power? Assuming we are only talking about the cue at rest vs the cue at contact velocity.

KMRUNOUT

Of course:

Assuming the mass of the system in motion is the same (disregarding speed of light velocities),

Scenario 1

Long, slow acceleration up to a Velocity, V(final) =>

Power1 = F x V = Mass * Accel(slow)*V(final)

Scenario 2

Same mass but a high acceleration to the same V(final) has the same velocity

Power2 = F x V = Mass * Accel(high)*V(final)

When both have the same V(final), Scenario 1 has less power due to its lower acceleration. Give the Scenario 1 a hair more time, and it will have V(final)+, but still has less power than Scenario 2 because the Accel(slow) keeps that Power 1 number lower.


And again, I'm just picking a minor nit. The scenarios above make much more sense if we go to the extremes, but that wouldn't be realistic in the cuestick/player model. Velocity is the key, since the collision is a momentum equation (M*V), not a power transfer.

My guess is that for most pool breaks, the distance from the bridge to the cue ball (rather the tip when pulled however far back you pull it and the cue ball) is going to be close enough that the net power for a given cue tip velocity is going to be close for a wide range of strokes and bridges. Also, with regard to a pool stroke, speed doesn't exist.

There look to be two distinct power break styles. The bridge lengths don't look to be the near the same. One takes advantage of the long bridge; the other looks to take advantage of the pectoral and leverage.

 

[Coop1701]

Absolutely!!!!! I love opponents who think they need to hit the rack 60 MPH, I get to watch their cue ball fly uncontrollably around the table more often than not, quite often the CB even finds a pocket to fall into. :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

That actually happened to me in league play the other night. I had to play a 9 in my match up. I was already up and he got ready to break. Jumped it clean up in the air of the rail and on to the floor. I ran 8 balls to win 46 to 32. Didn't even need the handicap. Made me feel good.