Break Speed

[MuchoBurrito]

Xiaoting Pan is the best breaker in the world. Copy her technique and learn to control it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvuRo-dHyKs

Wow, she crushes that.

I think he technique is very odd though, the way she elevates the back of her cue with her body so dramatically, I'm not sure I would advise people to try and copy that, it seems like it would be difficult to do. But you can't argue with her results.

I would say that the players with the best break strokes that I have seen are (in no particular order), Shane, Alex P., Jeff Ignacio & Chezka Centeno. Shane and Alex have very smooth, effortless strokes, Jeff and Chezka have more explosive body action.

 

[dr_dave]

Although there is a functional relation, velocity and power aren't related linearly.

Couple of different looks:

Power = Work/t = F*d/t = F*v

It's velocity (speed with a vector) that's important. I think if you start talking about power, then the F component isn't fixed (the acceleration component of F=ma isn't fixed), so the Power will be different for different accelerations, even if the final velocity is the same in the cuestick model. That's the short quick lurch (high acceleration, smaller distance) vs slow, long backswing/forward swing (low acceration). They get to the same velocity, but different accelerations, so different Power.


Also, since Power is a "per unit of time" measurement, then you need some time element to have an idea of how much absolute *stuff* you get (Work, in this case).

The Work done at a Low power at 10 seconds could equal the Work done at high power at 1 second. In the end, you'd want to know how much work is done, not how much Power (in the physics sense).

Freddie <~~~ waiting for Dr. Dave to tell me how wrong I am

I don't think a detailed physics discussion is necessary to explain the common interpretation of break "power." IMO, a "powerful" break has the following necessary features:

1.) Fast CB speed.
2.) A very square hit on the lead ball.
3.) No sidespin (wasted energy) on the CB.
4.) As level a hit as possible to minimize CB bounce and hop.
5.) Have the best rack possible, with all of the balls touching if possible.

A powerful break is one that delivers a lot of energy into the rack of balls, creating as much OB motion as possible to increase the chances for pocketing a ball.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

I don't think a detailed physics discussion is necessary to explain the common interpretation of break "power." IMO, a "powerful" break has the following necessary features:

Dr., heal thyself.

But, yes, you're absolutely correct. As I said, I was pointing out a minor nit in the terminology, but admittedly, I got carried away.

Freddie

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

That actually happened to me in league play the other night. I had to play a 9 in my match up. I was already up and he got ready to break. Jumped it clean up in the air of the rail and on to the floor. I ran 8 balls to win 46 to 32. Didn't even need the handicap. Made me feel good.

Actually, you did need the spot. If you didn't, you'd need to go to the same ball count as the 9. What you're saying is you beat him to your ball count.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

That actually happened to me in league play the other night. I had to play a 9 in my match up. I was already up and he got ready to break. Jumped it clean up in the air of the rail and on to the floor. I ran 8 balls to win 46 to 32. Didn't even need the handicap. Made me feel good.

Also, the knowledge that you were getting a big spot was there the entire time. That is quite a stroke enhancer...

KMRUNOUT

 

[fastone371]

I don't think a detailed physics discussion is necessary to explain the common interpretation of break "power." IMO, a "powerful" break has the following necessary features:

1.) Fast CB speed.
2.) A very square hit on the lead ball.
3.) No sidespin (wasted energy) on the CB.
4.) As level a hit as possible to minimize CB bounce and hop.
5.) Have the best rack possible, with all of the balls touching if possible.

A powerful break is one that delivers a lot of energy into the rack of balls, creating as much OB motion as possible to increase the chances for pocketing a ball.

Regards,
Dave

Assuming the shooter is hitting the rack square there is no way to have more power without more speed, or more speed without more power, in pool they are interchangeable, correct?

 

[dr_dave]

Assuming the shooter is hitting the rack square there is no way to have more power without more speed, or more speed without more power, in pool they are interchangeable, correct?

More speed does result in more "power" in general, but more speed can lead to more inaccuracy (which has a huge potential effect on "power"), and more speed can cause the CB to hit the lead ball more airborne which can result in less "power" (and can lead to the CB launching off the table, if there is also inaccuracy).

Regards,
Dave

 

[gregcantrall]

More speed does result in more "power" in general, but more speed can lead to more inaccuracy (which has a huge potential effect on "power"), and more speed can cause the CB to hit the lead ball more airborne which can result in less "power" (and can lead to the CB launching off the table, if there is also inaccuracy).

Regards,
Dave

So hitting the head ball perfectly square at15 mph could transfer more power than hitting the rack off center at 20 mph. How far off would it have to be for this to be the case?

 

[Bob Jewett]

So hitting the head ball perfectly square at15 mph could transfer more power than hitting the rack off center at 20 mph. How far off would it have to be for this to be the case?

To find the fraction of maximum energy that a cut on the break shot will get into the rack, just put something like

cos(30 degrees) ^ 2

into Google search. That's for a 30-degree cut, and the answer is that 75% of the full-ball hit energy will go into the rack. That's a half-ball hit.

For the particular question of 20 MPH with a cut equaling 15 with a full hit, that would be for a cut of about 41 degrees (unless I misplaced a decimal).

 

[gregcantrall]

To find the fraction of maximum energy that a cut on the break shot will get into the rack, just put something like

cos(30 degrees) ^ 2

into Google search. That's for a 30-degree cut, and the answer is that 75% of the full-ball hit energy will go into the rack. That's a half-ball hit.

For the particular question of 20 MPH with a cut equaling 15 with a full hit, that would be for a cut of about 41 degrees (unless I misplaced a decimal).

Thank you!

 

[Coop1701]

More speed does result in more "power" in general, but more speed can lead to more inaccuracy (which has a huge potential effect on "power"), and more speed can cause the CB to hit the lead ball more airborne which can result in less "power" (and can lead to the CB launching off the table, if there is also inaccuracy).

Regards,
Dave

Agreed..., sometimes you can't see it in real time. But a slow motion video will show the cueball is really skipping towards the head ball. Each skip bleeds speed and if it is on a bounce up at the moment of impact. It jumps off the tables. Watch Mike Sigel break. His cueball pops up in the air every time he breaks. All due to the skipping across the felt.

 

[pt109]

I don't think a detailed physics discussion is necessary to explain the common interpretation of break "power." IMO, a "powerful" break has the following necessary features:

1.) Fast CB speed.
2.) A very square hit on the lead ball.
3.) No sidespin (wasted energy) on the CB.
4.) As level a hit as possible to minimize CB bounce and hop.
5.) Have the best rack possible, with all of the balls touching if possible.

A powerful break is one that delivers a lot of energy into the rack of balls, creating as much OB motion as possible to increase the chances for pocketing a ball.

Regards,
Dave

3.)....any spin loses energy....top or bottom also.

 

[DST]

That actually happened to me in league play the other night. I had to play a 9 in my match up. I was already up and he got ready to break. Jumped it clean up in the air of the rail and on to the floor. I ran 8 balls to win 46 to 32. Didn't even need the handicap. Made me feel good.

We will never know if you needed the handicap. He may have got to 75 before you did.:wink:

 

[noMoreSchon]

Well, everyone was talking about this Breakspeed app, I downloaded it, and I assumed it

works with the sound of the rack. After playing around with it I started having it 'listen' to

pros break on YouTube...and it works there also. Who really knows how accurate, but it

gave me a MPH...Have fun...

 

[ceebee]

So, Dr Dave, can you give us an idea of what speed you can hit the cue ball & not cause it to come off the table, in it's path to the rack..? Maybe in your research, you've found that out.

Since we have rails on a pool table & the cue cannot strike the cue ball, parallel to the surface of the table, we are handicapped with that situation. That alone can cause the cue ball to hop.

.

 

[dr_dave]

To find the fraction of maximum energy that a cut on the break shot will get into the rack, just put something like

cos(30 degrees) ^ 2

into Google search. That's for a 30-degree cut, and the answer is that 75% of the full-ball hit energy will go into the rack. That's a half-ball hit.

For the particular question of 20 MPH with a cut equaling 15 with a full hit, that would be for a cut of about 41 degrees (unless I misplaced a decimal).

Bob, I think the real situation is a lot worse than this simple model implies due to the complexities of the multiple-body simultaneous collision. The effective mass of the rack and multiple-body impact mechanics changes with a non-square hit. Regardless, and anecdotally, a square hit is significantly better than a non-square hit ( and not just due to the resulting rack "power," but also the reduced chance for scratching or potentially driving the CB off the table).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Agreed..., sometimes you can't see it in real time. But a slow motion video will show the cueball is really skipping towards the head ball. Each skip bleeds speed and if it is on a bounce up at the moment of impact. It jumps off the tables. Watch Mike Sigel break. His cueball pops up in the air every time he breaks. All due to the skipping across the felt.

With a fast-speed power break, the CB usually skips only once or twice (including the initial jump immediately after tip contact). The CB spends most of its time in the air during the break with any decent power break.

I agree that each skip (including the initial jump) does remove a small amount of energy from the CB. The airborne hit on the lead ball also results in lost energy due to the hop energy in the CB (and the lead ball) and the lost energy due to driving the lead ball down into the slate some.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I don't think a detailed physics discussion is necessary to explain the common interpretation of break "power." IMO, a "powerful" break has the following necessary features:

1.) Fast CB speed.
2.) A very square hit on the lead ball.
3.) No sidespin (wasted energy) on the CB.
4.) As level a hit as possible to minimize CB bounce and hop.
5.) Have the best rack possible, with all of the balls touching if possible.

A powerful break is one that delivers a lot of energy into the rack of balls, creating as much OB motion as possible to increase the chances for pocketing a ball.

3.)....any spin loses energy....top or bottom also.

Agreed. Although, a slight amount of topspin is required to squat the rock. For those interested, more info (and demonstrations) can be found on the CB squat and hop resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

So, Dr Dave, can you give us an idea of what speed you can hit the cue ball & not cause it to come off the table, in it's path to the rack..? Maybe in your research, you've found that out.

I haven't studied this in detail; but with any decent power break (and typical equipment) it is impossible to keep the CB from hopping due to the minimum required cue elevation to the clear the rail. The best you can do is to try to get the CB to land as close to the lead ball as possible to limit the amount of CB hop off the rack (and get the best energy transfer). Again, more info (and demonstratioins) dealing with this topic can be found on the CB hop and squat resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[shinobi]

I feel like we've entered into a bizarre world where 100% of pros with powerful breaks use body movement other than a pendulum stroke, and Scott thinks it is unnecessary.

Well, I'll bite. Scott, got any youtube links and time references to professionals breaking with power, using a pendulum stroke? Hopefully not a Corey Deuel soft break.

Apparently the evidence is not to be forthcoming. Can't say I'm shocked, but would have been nice to see.