Shane and the Mosconi Cup [Puts on Fire Proof Suit]

[poQet trainer]

veterans, next years team should be filled with veterans of the game. or the complete opposite, fresh new faces.

rodeny morris
earl strickland
johnny archer
SVB
corey deuel

or

mike dechaine
skylar woodward
justin bergman
jeremy sossei
justin hall

and one or two players on both that could come up.

either shake it up or go old school.

 

[(((Satori)))]

veterans, next years team should be filled with veterans of the game. or the complete opposite, fresh new faces.

rodeny morris
earl strickland
johnny archer
SVB
corey deuel

or

mike dechaine
skylar woodward
justin bergman
jeremy sossei
justin hall

and one or two players on both that could come up.

either shake it up or go old school.

Let them play each other, winning team goes to the cup.

 

[Palmerfan]

Follow the Ryder Cup

First off, Shane Van Boening is one of my favorite players to watch. He's by far the best American pool player, and easily one of the best in the world. Yes, he's a favorite against the world in longer winner breaks races, but that's not what this is about.

This is about the Mosconi Cup and whether or not Shane is the best choice for America.

People can argue about variance, short races, alternate breaks, etc. But he's participated enough times that the rolls have evened out, and it's very clear that Shane just doesn't excel in this type of format. Why does he struggle when others (mainly from the Euro side, but some Americans as well) don't seem to have the same issue?

I don't know, and it doesn't really matter in the end. This isn't a knock on Shane as he is still a monster player, but the MC just isn't for him, and that's fine. He has the things that he's great at, but just because he's great at some things doesn't mean he has to be great at everything.

Finally for the variance yappers...

82-85 over 20 singles matches
75-97 over 20 doubles matches

40 matches is more than enough for variance to even out.

If the format for MC were changed to mimic the Ryder Cup (which it was based on anyway) it would be more exciting, can't say more competitve as players have to show up and play well...but more exciting:

8 - 2 player team matches for days one and two (16 pts available) - Captain can pair any 2 players at all times.
12 - Singles Matches on day 3 - Where every player must play a match.

12 man Teams where the top 8 players based on the past years results in tournament play would automatically qualify - so people can't say the best players aren't represented, and then captains would each be allowed 4 captains picks.

First team to 14 1/2 points wins the cup - or 14-14 would retain cup for previous years winning team.

Would make the days be 8+ hrs of Pool each day...great for fans..more challenging for players and the captains would have to employ more strategy with teams and with how many times 1 player plays..example: if SVB for USA (playing well) or Darren for Europe were asked to play in a bulk of the doubles matches it could wear them down. Or you can make it on days 1&2 that no single player from either side can play in more then 4 matches.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Some players are slow starters. Players like Shane and Earl can catch a gear and run over anybody. This is their edge - they learn to channel the momentum to win. Alternate break and sloppy pockets take away a lot of Shane's otherwise massive advantage. This format, as you say, does not suit him in the least.

I had absolutely nothing to do with Shane's poor play at the Cup.:frown:

 

[poQet trainer]

Let them play each other, winning team goes to the cup.

not a bad idea. they should stream the match too.

 

[Nostroke]

I completely agree with this. Athletes at the highest levels in all other sports do this.

athletes at the highest level in other sports aren't broke remember.

 

[AtLarge]

... What is the track record for Archer, Hatch and Earl over the years?

Counting by number of matches in which they have participated (e.g., full point to each player in a doubles match):

• Johnny Archer (17 years -- 1997-2013) ..... 18-13 singles, 26-23 doubles, 0-2 trebles, 5-4 teams, 49-42 total (winning percentage of 54%)
• Earl Strickland (14 years -- 1996-2008, 2013) ..... 14-12 singles, 24-12 doubles, 1-1 trebles, 3-2 teams, 42-27 total (61%)
• Dennis Hatch (4 years -- 2009-2010, 2012-2013) ..... 4-3 singles, 5-7 doubles, 2-2 teams, 11-12 total (48%)


Counting by contribution to match scores (e.g., 1/2 point to each player in a doubles match):

• Archer ..... 31.9 - 26.0 (winning percentage 55%)
• Strickland ..... 26.8 - 18.7 (59%)
• Hatch ..... 6.9 - 6.9 (50%)

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

athletes at the highest level in other sports aren't broke remember.

Shane is hardly broke. Recognizing and accepting the need for a sports psychologist would be his biggest hurdle, not coming up with the cash to pay for it.

Even Efren said about him, "sometimes, you lose your mind". Shane's mental game is his biggest weakness. Despite his enormous success, his meek personality just reeks of low self-esteem. I'm sure that goes back to his unhappy childhood, and we ain't helping him by starting threads about shit-canning him from the Cup in the future.

He has earned the right to be there, he belongs there, he just needs some coaching on how to deal with the format.

 

[peteypooldude]

Shane is hardly broke. Recognizing and accepting the need for a sports psychologist would be his biggest hurdle, not coming up with the cash to pay for it.

Even Efren said about him, "sometimes, you lose your mind". Shan'e mental game is his biggest weakness. Despite his enormous success, his meek personality just reeks of low self-esteem. I'm sure that goes back to his unhappy childhood, and we ain't helping him by starting threads about shit-canning him from the Cup in the future.

He has earned the right to be there, he belongs there, he just needs some coaching on how to deal with the format.

It doesn't get much truer than this.
Excellent post

 

[7forlife]

And BAM! problem solved

Here is what needs to be done based on the comments that keep coming up when shane doesn't perform well and get's beat.

Next year PartyPoker will give each team 100,000 (since gambling is always the answer) and the races are to 25 (since longer races the solution) and they can duke it out like poker, and the team left holding the cash gets the trophy, simple.

American is incapable of being a Team in pool, oh and years ago... that was not team, it was the reverse of now. We had the better "player's" by a good margin so the team thing was not needed. Times have changed and now Europe has great players who know what pride is (some saw if fit to mention in another thread that "they're not going to war) all the while the american players are still holding on to the past.

We have cycled through "those" players of yesteryear but not fully giving the newer younger players time to truly develop and carry the torch. So we keep bringing back/up player like Corey based on what they have done was was able to do despite their inactivity over the past few years, holding them to a frozen in time standard because they can beat us on any given sunday. Yes they are great and can spot us the world and even beat another pro here and there but lets face it, archer, earl, rodney, corey, hatch etc are not who they use to be, hell even Ralf and look at how much he still plays.

A fresh batch of soldiers is whats needed, and to be honest what i thought we were getting for this trip. Bring a bunch of young players, let them take their lumps and pay their dues (isn't that what you call it, isn't that how you came up in pool?) and give them the necessary seasoning. I would totally of been happy loosing with this team all the while knowing what was coming down the road Mike Dechaine, Justin Bergman, Justing Hall, Landon Shuffet and (shane/another pro/another young gun sossei or that kid that landon battles with for junior titles can brandon something "i think"). That is developing young talent, I would of even taken Landon and that Brandon kid on this trip for them to see what it's like. Cause it's a cycle, just like the rolls, we started it, Europe has it and are going to keep it till this group passes on (not dead) like the other pros mentioned above cause they have no young talent coming out of there soon "that i know of", it's going to be all asia after that.

(i'm done for now, i think i've given "some" enough to do what they do best on this forum)

 

[9andout]

Let them play each other, winning team goes to the cup.

I like that!

If the format for MC were changed to mimic the Ryder Cup (which it was based on anyway) it would be more exciting, can't say more competitve as players have to show up and play well...but more exciting:

8 - 2 player team matches for days one and two (16 pts available) - Captain can pair any 2 players at all times.
12 - Singles Matches on day 3 - Where every player must play a match.

12 man Teams where the top 8 players based on the past years results in tournament play would automatically qualify - so people can't say the best players aren't represented, and then captains would each be allowed 4 captains picks.

First team to 14 1/2 points wins the cup - or 14-14 would retain cup for previous years
winning team.









Would make the days be 8+ hrs of Pool each day...great for fans..more challenging for players and the captains would have to employ more strategy with teams and with how many times 1 player plays..example: if SVB for USA (playing well) or Darren for Europe were asked to play in a bulk of the doubles matches it could wear them down. Or you can make it on days 1&2 that no single player from either side can play in more then 4 matches.

Genius. Love your idea!!

 

[DRW]

Mosconi Cup

It's definitely puzzling.

As you note, when he has a losing record over almost 350 racks played, the sample is huge and the rolls are 100% irrelevant.

Enjoyment
My best guess is that Shane doesn't enjoy the experience of being accountable to anyone else but himself. That may be why he thrives at Derby City, the US Open and, more recently, the World Pool Masters, but never looks comfortable at the World Cup of Pool or the Mosconi. This year, I think being named a captain made things even worse for him. Shane is no leader and when he's not leading by example at the table, asking him to lead the troops is a bad idea.

Modified Routine When not Playing a Match
I also wonder whether having to remain in the arena while he is not playing cramps his style. Most players have their own routines when it comes to down time and sweating matches rarely is part of those routines.

Loose Pockets and Slidy Rails
I also think the fact that the Mosconi is played on bucket tables with slidy rails has hurt Shane in three ways: 1) it reduces his breaking edge, 2) it reduces the edge he normally enjoys for being a phenomenally straight shooter and pocketer --- everyone can run out on such easy equipment, and 3) it exposes some of his limitations in kicking, for Shane has shown poor adaptability in his kicking game when he plays on very slidy tables.

Make no mistake about it, Shane is a fantastic short race player. The Derby City 9-ball was races to seven until 2012, and Shane won over a field of hundreds twice before they switched to longer races.

Needless to say, this is all speculation, but it's my sense of it.

I think you hit the nail, square on the head.

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Why do people always forget about Oscar Dominguez? He's one of the few American players who plays overseas regularly. He has way more experience than the younger players being mentioned here.

 

[Johnnyt]

if any pro player would bow out if he thought he couldn't help the team i believe it would be shane. johnnyt

 

[BeiberLvr]

Curious if anyone in this thread that was pro-Shane for the MC has changed their opinion in the last two years/

 

[Cezar Morales]

First off, Shane Van Boening is one of my favorite players to watch. He's by far the best American pool player, and easily one of the best in the world. Yes, he's a favorite against the world in longer winner breaks races, but that's not what this is about.

This is about the Mosconi Cup and whether or not Shane is the best choice for America.

People can argue about variance, short races, alternate breaks, etc. But he's participated enough times that the rolls have evened out, and it's very clear that Shane just doesn't excel in this type of format. Why does he struggle when others (mainly from the Euro side, but some Americans as well) don't seem to have the same issue?

I don't know, and it doesn't really matter in the end. This isn't a knock on Shane as he is still a monster player, but the MC just isn't for him, and that's fine. He has the things that he's great at, but just because he's great at some things doesn't mean he has to be great at everything.

Finally for the variance yappers...

82-85 over 20 singles matches
75-97 over 20 doubles matches

40 matches is more than enough for variance to even out.

So by now u shld be able to reach the conclusion thay maybe he's the best player in the USA, but being the best in USA does not necessarily equate to him being on par with the WORLD BEST which was proven time after time with him losing to ko and albin in the finals and in which both are way younger than him.

Currently , americna's pool standards pales in comparison with likes of taiwan, philipines and europe.
And watch out for Russia, i suspect they may be the next strong force with the pressence of many young players being exposed in many international tournaments recently.

 

[Cezar Morales]

Results pickers, what a joke!

Our most cherished and best player in the United States, a three-peat U.S. Open champion, and then a thread like this erupts from the bowels of AzBilliards.

Welcome to our modern era madam, in which everything mainly effectiveness , efficiency are all judged by results.

Bankers, managers , directors n marketers are known to be fired for failure to produce results.

Why shouldnt we evaluate a pool player's capabilities by results then lol ??

Your stand has always been like Shane will win anyone in a race to 100 but seems to lose consistently in a short race.

Now , should the rest of the world request to extend the length of swimming pool n duration because michael phelps is too fast under these conditions ?
Should phelps be asked to compete in the ocean because the pool is too easy for him.

Should the duration of basketball game be extended to half a day because american basketball players are too good and one trick ponies during 4 standard quarters of play?

Stop comimg up with new excuses.. you are part of the reason why america will not go back to its glory days of pool.
Give credit when its deserve, and self evaluate when we fall short is how we can progress in anything we do.

Be it short or long race , regardless of equipment , the taiwanese n pinoys are known to just adapt n play irregardless of the conditions.

 

[jasonlaus]

So by now u shld be able to reach the conclusion thay maybe he's the best player in the USA, but being the best in USA does not necessarily equate to him being on par with the WORLD BEST which was proven time after time with him losing to ko and albin in the finals and in which both are way younger than him.

Currently , americna's pool standards pales in comparison with likes of taiwan, philipines and europe.
And watch out for Russia, i suspect they may be the next strong force with the pressence of many young players being exposed in many international tournaments recently.

You certainly missed the mark on this one.

You've got action all day long I'll take Shane and you get everybody else. We will bet every match that Shane plays excluding Mosconi cup(no team events/partners)

He plays TERRIBLE in MC but thats about it.

 

[Carolina_Giant]

Shane has had two good cups that I've seen, and by good cups I mean he looked like he was enjoying himself, shooting well, happy to be there, and ready to take on all challengers. They were his first cup in 2007 after he won his first US Open, and the second was 2009 when he won the cup but Archer and Hatch took all the attention and Shane simply had to shoot.

In case anyone has noticed, Shane doesn't really like to talk, like at all, when he is playing. So if he is going to be on the team, pair him with guys like Corey Deuel, Skyler Woodward, or Justin Bergman who are quality shooters who also don't really like to talk. And for the love of god, stop pairing him against Darren Appleton. That's like how captains would always pair Corey against Mika cup after cup because Corey threw Mika off his game like no one else ever could. Put Shane against Niels, Albin, anyone but Darren for a few years so Shane's psyche can recover.

 

[Cezar Morales]

You certainly missed the mark on this one.

You've got action all day long I'll take Shane and you get everybody else. We will bet every match that Shane plays excluding Mosconi cup(no team events/partners)

He plays TERRIBLE in MC but thats about it.

Where were you then when he.gambled n lost to Chang in vegas ?

Was your money on Shane when there were side action when he lost to big ko in csi race to 21 invitation.

Was your money on him when he lost twice in the world 9 ball ?

I certainly hope not as you wld have lost a considerable amount of money by now.
Also, i doubt he will like his chances against the asia's money game king yang chin shun before he retired 10 yrs ago.
Dennis orcollo has a taste of that man's wrath n it still lingers in his resume till today.