a thank you to CJ Wiley

SJDinPHX said:
Gypsy..I was never a hater!..I used to enjoy pulling CJ's chain, to try and get a rise out of him.. He is a better player than I am, at all games except one pocket!..I considered it an absolute joke, that he insisted anyone could learn to play one pocket, in just a few weeks time!..I was never alone in that line of thinking! :embarrassed2:

I also never bought into his theory on 'TOI'..Almost all top players avoid using inside english (even a tiny bit) unless absolutely necessary!..And breaking the pocket down into three parts, made even less sense!..What worked for him, I never felt was beneficial to the 'newbies' he was always trying to promote his stuff to! :rolleyes:

PS..At my age (83) I had to give up playing about 5-6 yrs ago.. If I were just 10 yrs younger, CJ (or you) could sure have gotten it on, playing some high $$$ one pocket!..I don't think you'll find anyone on here, who knows me, that will doubt that I would have played! :cool:
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Yeah, I never felt comfortable using any type of inside english. That going for aiming also. It seems that I have learned now that the 2 are different (from where you aim to the cue ball, and where you strike the cue ball on impact, from what ENGLISH explained a few posts ago). Makes no sense to me, but trying it out will not hurt my game.
 
Just for the record:
On TOI: TOI is not a new thing, and CJ Wiley did not invent it. But he did bring it to our attention, and many people still deny that it is even something that could be useful, so clearly he wasn't kicking in an open door with it. I've even seen a snooker version of this kind of "system" or playing style, if you will. And it works. Even in snooker.

I learned a lot from CJ's threads, even if some of his posts ended up being repetitive and annoying, in my opinion. I don't begrudge him the money he made on here at all. He gave a lot out for free, much more than any other guy trying to sell things. He didn't overcharge either. I watched his TOI video for 5-6 dollars, I think it was. He didn't charge 60-70 dollars like many others do.

A lot of people on the forum disagree with each other on how the game "should" be played. Some of us have people following us around, only to pick on every post we make. I guess it shows that people are very passionate about the game, which is mostly a good thing. It becomes a bad thing when they try to run others off the forum, or make agreements among themselves to shun or discredit people through campaigns. CJ was a big, visible target and he got plenty of this shit, more than most others, maybe more than any other. Frankly, I don't know how he put up with all the abuse. The line between disagreeing with someone and actually being abusive got crossed so many times that some people forgot it was even there.
 
HawaiianEye said:
I am able to learn things by reading...are you not?

Are you unable to convey information in a written format so that people can understand it?

Maybe it is too hard to talk about bunting balls into rails for hours on end.

You complain about tip threads, you complain about WWYD threads, you complain about threads where somebody is giving pointers.

Why do you come here, if it is only to complain?

CJ never confused me. The only people who may have been confused were those that were unable to read or complete rookies.
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I am able to understand CJ's lesson enough to think that I might actually be able to play good using a touch of inside on all of my shots. I do not know if it will help my game, but my game has done nothing but go down hill over the years, so it might just help me (to at least concentrate more on my aiming, and the point of impact to the cue ball, on follow through). CJ does make it sound interesting, and I do understand about inside english. I have to say that a beginner might not understand it though.
 
ENGLISH! said:
If you are cutting a ball to the left then hitting the cue ball with the tip on the left side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting Inside english on the ball & the hitting the cue ball with the tip to the right side of the center line of the cue ball would be putting outside english on the ball.

It is inside & outside of the angle formed by the line from the cue ball to the object ball & then the angled line to the pocket.

That said... The TOI that CJ uses is NOT for the purpose of spinning the ball per say. He is doing it to use the cue ball squirt from the slightly off center hit to add cut to the shot from how it is aligned... & to use the small amount of spin to offset the outside rotation that the cue ball picks up from striking the object ball off center.

For those purposes the speed of the shot is rather vital. If one hits the CB too softly it will swerve back in the opposite direction of the squirt if not hit precisely on the equator of the ball or perhaps slightly above that because the cue stick is angled slightly downward... & that would defeat the intentions of his purposes... that is why he stressed hitting the shot will acceleration & not any deceleration.

I hope this gives you a bit better understanding. CJ's TOI was NOT for the purpose of spin other than that small bit that is basically a side effect given his purpose for using it to pocket balls.

Best Wishes,
Rick
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A little pregnant is still pregnant, hitting a hair inside is still inside ,, TOI it's not a novelty any reasonably good player knows cause and effects of TOI , CJ likes that style of play and Mike S likes TOO , others choose center ball play ,, to each thier own ,,


1
 
I am starting to shift to CJ's TOI, are they a set of drills that you can recommend ? Thanks!
 
HawaiianEye said:
FWIW, I think the "owners" of the site determine what should be where. 90% of the people coming on this site are not "paid' members. Why should they have any say on what is posted where?

There are TONS of people on here with all kinds of logos, footers, and crap in their posts. Why worry about what CJ put in his? He was/is a gold member.

And while I'm at, I think people who aren't a gold member should take all that logo and footer crap out of their posts. I don't need to see a picture of your cue in all their posts. Also, I don't care what it is made of, what weight it is, who made it, or what kind of case you have. If you want people to see that, post it in the Gallery somewhere...not on every post you make.
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You can turn off signature and avatars in your user control panel. Govern yourself not others.
 
Since I started this post, here's a follow up. It's been about 3 weeks using TOI, and I am still playing better than I ever have before. I always had trouble with pocketing balls with inside until Mr. Wiley gave me some help on this forum. I had trouble with it because I didn't understand the aiming aspect when the shot didn't call for inside English, but when I decided to use it to aim with, and to use inside whenever possible, it has made a difference. As with most things, there are more than one way to play this game, but this particular item has helped me.
 
mjdoutdoors said:
CJ worked hard to spread his weath of knowledge to the pool world here on AZ. I am bummed that he has been run off as I have learned more from his posts than anything else. He was spreading real, practical knowledge that has been tested under fire. These were things that no one else was sharing an gave us an insight to a champions way.
TOI works. I have been using it for a couple of years now and it has brought an awareness to my game I could not achieved otherwise. It was CJ's niche and does not have applications all the time. Like others have said it has become a tool in my toolbox that many others are missing.
I had the oportunity to go see CJ at his home for some lessons and it has been the best thing for my game. I have seen other instructors over the years and CJ showed me some practical things that now other teachers have not even come close to showing. The hammer stroke for example. This has provided a consistant wrist action with an acceleration at any speed. When under pressure I now have a consistant feel for my wrist, the same every time.
All the things I heard from CJ I now look for closely in the top professionals. I tell you, they are there. Examples, firm grip, Shaw, Hohmann. Not a death grip but controlling. Short follow through, this is a huge epiphany in my game. Look at SVB'S followthrough. Super short and crisp. His extensions is in most cases is not even past the cue for the follow through. Same with Shaw, look closely.
With any new knowledge is musts be made your own. Bruce Lee quoted something like take what you need make it your own and discard the rest. I wish people here on AZ would have just continued to listen to what CJ was saying as it was real and worked. Not everything works for everyone, just listen and absorp. So far I have not here anyone on this sight contribute what CJ did.
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CJ is a top player that speaks well and can articulate his thoughts well enough for it to be very beneficial for those who really want to improve their game. I have watched and played CJ enough times to know (first hand) the mastery of his game, he knows what he speaks of and TOI does work. The cue ball is the single most important aspect of playing high level pocket billiards and TOI demands the emphasis one needs to play their best game, trust me and him.

Bill Incardona
 
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wincardona said:
CJ is a top player that speaks well and can articulate his thoughts well enough for it to be very beneficial for those who really want to improve their game. I have watched and played CJ enough times to know (first hand) the mastery of his game, he knows what he speaks of and TOI does work. The cue ball is the single most important aspect of playing high level pocket billiards and TOI demands the emphasis one needs to play their best game, trust me and him.

Bill Incardona
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The benefits of TOI are several. TOI very much like center ball enables you to line up the shot with precision, once lined up you can deliver on your final stroke another english if you choose. I use TOI when cutting balls down the rail then on my final stroke I switch to outside english (knowing the deflection I will get with outside which I incorporate into the initial lining up process) if I need to play the cue ball where outside english would be beneficial. I also use TOI on shots where position play is trivial but contacting the cue ball is paramount.Many shots are missed because of the unintentional side spin that we mistakenly use when trying to pocket balls, TOI gives us a better understanding of the importance of unintentional side spin and gives us conscious awareness of where to strike the cue ball. It's much easier to strike the cue ball with a "touch of inside" then it is to try to use center ball. Using a touch of inside we have a much better feel for the cue ball as opposed to trying to use a center ball. Similar to placing the cue ball in hand behind the head string to shoot a long shot. One may ask why? If you place the cue ball exactly straight in to pocket a long shot you are demanded to hit the object ball dead center, if you position the cue ball to one side or the other where a slight cut is needed then you have a better understanding on how to hit the shot.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone if I did maybe someone else can un-confuse you.
Just keep your head down and play the shot the way you processed it before getting down...(something a little extra that I threw in)

Bill Incardona
 
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Bill: Thanks very much for your post today regarding your experience with CJ's TOI. I've been skeptical about the concept for several years and have been ambivalent about giving it a fair trial.

I consider you to be a really unimpeachable source of validation on this issue (and so many others related to pool playing) and I'm now looking forward to quite a few solo-practice sessions applying your approach to TOI exactly as you've described it today. I like your reasoning about the several practical aspects to its usage, in effect -- why it works and what's behind the apparent benefits.

Thanks again for the needed stimulation.

Arnaldo
 
I'm just waiting for Neil & the others to come along & tell another former champion he doesn't know what he's talking about either.
 
justinb386 said:
Okay, so it is just about aiming, and not about where you strike the cue ball. That is interesting, Thanks for your time, but all of this stuff is still way over my head (my understanding). I can try using TOI for 2 hours, but it is going to be TOI that I use when I strike the cue ball, on follow through (if that is how I am aiming), Sorry that I am not understanding the real meaning of CJ's TOI. Thanks.
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No... not at all as in your first sentence.

CJ said he only 'aims' or aligns Center cue ball to center object ball... or center cue ball ball to edge of object ball.

That is hardly 'aiming' & not about where you strike the ball.

He used different diameter tips depending on the table size & they were not the new high tech low squirt shafts

I had trouble playing with just the 2 alignment since playing with the new high tech low squirt shafts, so I added center cue ball to 1/2 between Center & Edge of the object ball.

The principle is that you set up for shot that would under cut if hit center cue ball... but because you hit with the tough of inside the ball squirts in the opposite direction, to the outside & adds cut to the shot & the Cue Ball Floats off at the tangent line.... instead of picking up outside roll form the collision with the Object Ball.

IMO it is a very dynamic playing method that can be very accurate when one has it dialed in.

Best Wishes to You & All.
Rick
 
Bill

wincardona said:
The benefits of TOI are several. TOI very much like center ball enables you to line up the shot with precision, once lined up you can deliver on your final stroke another english if you choose. I use TOI when cutting balls down the rail then on my final stroke I switch to outside english (knowing the deflection I will get with outside which I incorporate into the initial lining up process) if I need to play the cue ball where outside english would be beneficial. I also use TOI on shots where position play is trivial but contacting the cue ball is paramount.Many shots are missed because of the unintentional side spin that we mistakenly use when trying to pocket balls, TOI gives us a better understanding of the importance of unintentional side spin and gives us conscious awareness of where to strike the cue ball. It's much easier to strike the cue ball with a "touch of inside" then it is to try to use center ball. Using a touch of inside we have a much better feel for the cue ball as opposed to trying to use a center ball. Similar to placing the cue ball in hand behind the head string to shoot a long shot. One may ask why? If you place the cue ball exactly straight in to pocket a long shot you are demanded to hit the object ball dead center, if you position the cue ball to one side or the other where a slight cut is needed then you have a better understanding on how to hit the shot.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone if I did maybe someone else can un-confuse you.
Just keep your head down and play the shot the way you processed it before getting down...(something a little extra that I threw in)

Bill Incardona
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Help me here. you line up the shot with TOI then on your final stroke you hit OS
if you need the CB to come off the rail with OS. You don't pivot or move the tip
parallel and then deliver the last stroke ? Do you use TOI to line up most or all
shots or just certain ones. If you had to power draw the CB with OB some where
in middle of the table and come off the side rail back to the end rail do you line up
with TOI . I hope this makes since as I am very curious about this and really
appreciate your input on here
jack
 
jackpot said:
Help me here. you line up the shot with TOI then on your final stroke you hit OS
if you need the CB to come off the rail with OS. You don't pivot or move the tip
parallel and then deliver the last stroke ? Do you use TOI to line up most or all
shots or just certain ones. If you had to power draw the CB with OB some where
in middle of the table and come off the side rail back to the end rail do you line up
with TOI . I hope this makes since as I am very curious about this and really
appreciate your input on here
jack
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When I speak of TOI used in the aiming process it's strictly used as a good habit because to me it's easier to judge the severity of the cut using either center ball or a touch of inside. When cutting balls to the right it's easier to judge where the point of contact is using either TOI or a center ball, as opposed to using left (helping) english. When using left english cutting balls to the right, or right english cutting balls to the left, you are actually looking away from the contact point for the briefest which in turn compromises the accuracy of the hit. However, there are many top players who don't follow this technique and do quite well, with that said it should be understood that TOI is just another tool that could help elevate our game providing that we understand the concept and when to use it.

TOI or TOO (touch of outside) both are beneficial in the disciplining of our games. Try using less english when you play, you can safely bet that you will miss less balls by staying around the center of the cue ball as opposed to guessing how much english is necessary. Too many balls are missed by over spinning the cue ball when in fact if the truth was known one tip of either left or right english will get the job done in many of the cases that we failed on because of over spinning the rock. Of course there are times when we need to go to the outer axis of the cue ball, that is a given, however, once we develop the understanding of staying around center ball we will be disciplined enough by then to use extreme english with confidence knowing that it's needed instead of guessing. :D

So, TOI, is a tool that imo should be practiced and incorporated into our games, it helps us site shots, and also helps us to play a more disciplined solid game.:thumbup:

Jut my opinion.:outtahere:

Bill Incardona
 
Billy,

Thanks for the info. Some of us on here have been saying the same thing for a long time and many of the folks can't seem to grasp the fact the TOI works and question why anybody would even use it. Hopefully, your explanations will maybe get some of the naysayers to give it a try. They have nothing to use in trying it out.

For those that try it out, it isn't a 20 minute process. It will take a few hours or days for you to actually start seeing the benefits of how it works.
 
C.J. Is good guy who don't deserve this

Only professional player that has tried to upgrade everyone's game. I have all his videos and found them fantastic, shame on all you knockers, THE GAME IS THE TEACHER !!!!!!
 
Why not a Touch of High, or perhaps a Touch of Low?

I sometimes think this TOI or TOO stuff just corrects bad perception issues. In any, case a player should know how to use a Touch of Anything when the shot calls for it.

Lou Figueroa
 
He's right

lfigueroa said:
Why not a Touch of High, or perhaps a Touch of Low?

I sometimes think this TOI or TOO stuff just corrects bad perception issues. In any, case a player should know how to use a Touch of Anything when the shot calls for it.

Lou Figueroa
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Yeah, he's right no more questions allowed on here. If you are interested in something,
too bad take it down the road. As a matter of fact a player should know about which
cue is best, chalk, everything. And don't be asking these pro players about something
that seems different than what most people do, like playing almost every shot with
TOI like C.J. and how Bill uses it to aim then changes to TOO if that's what the shot
calls for. STOP IT TOP RIGHT NOW.
jack
 
I think more than TOI that CJ was trying to let us know that it takes a certain stroke to execute TOI properly.
Hitting the cue ball with TOI using a loose grip, gimpy wrist and a long follow through, is nothing more than inside english.
TOI requires the "hammer stroke", the "cocked wrist" and "acceleration at the cue ball".

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
jackpot said:
Yeah, he's right no more questions allowed on here. If you are interested in something,
too bad take it down the road. As a matter of fact a player should know about which
cue is best, chalk, everything. And don't be asking these pro players about something
that seems different than what most people do, like playing almost every shot with
TOI like C.J. and how Bill uses it to aim then changes to TOO if that's what the shot
calls for. STOP IT TOP RIGHT NOW.
jack
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I miss CJ posting here...we argue a little but we can get along.
He said once that he would love to have a coffee with me and just talk.

Well, Mr Potter, I would like you to be included in that conversation.


..but don't bring Dean...you just KNOW he'll end up bustin' all three of us...:eek:
 
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